Louisiana passes first antievolution "academic freedom" law

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NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Well if you all believe you came from apes then so be it. Thats not my belief and never will be. Just one question though. If we all came from apes then why are there still apes around? Wouldn't evolution have transformed the remaining apes into humans by now? So silly.

Right here.

This is the exact reason why many religious folks object so strongly to the theory of evolution. It's as if they cannot fathom the fact that humans and animals share a common ancestor (or in this particular ignorant view, that we CAME from apes).

But I digress, there's something about humans being highly evolved animals that does not jive with Christianity. Perhaps because it clashes with their belief that we are of divine origin ... something special ... different from animals. I guess it must really burn your world view pretty harshly to realize we're essentially monkeys with big brains. Well, at least some of us anyway.

:laugh:

LOL your first mistake is thinking I'm of the religious mind set. I'm not in the "traditional" way. I believe a mixture of evolution and ID or "God said let there be man". But what I believed was never the question here, the question is whether kids should be allowed to learn ID instead of evolution in school. In that aspect I haven't changed my mind. No one, no matter how sure they are that they're doing the right thing, should ever lord over another individual and decide what they will believe or learn.


As for your evolution "we came from apes" theory, where is your missing link? Where is the common ancestor you guys speak so much about? Oh that's right, it doesn't exist. So don't give me that BS about "belief" because you have to add your own belief to make this "common ancestor" thing work.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
PC Surgeon

Well if you all believe you came from apes then so be it. Thats not my belief and never will be. Just one question though. If we all came from apes then why are there still apes around? Wouldn't evolution have transformed the remaining apes into humans by now? So silly.

Following the crackpot reasoning of your understanding of evolution, there would always only be one species of life on the planet, each new one replacing the last one.

Now that's silly.

As I have been told many times, simply "believing" is not proof. So why do you believe in the missing link without proof? You were told there was a common ancestor, yet no proof one exists, and you decide to believe it? Seems like you have your own religion :D
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

As I have been told many times, simply "believing" is not proof. So why do you believe in the missing link without proof? You were told there was a common ancestor, yet no proof one exists, and you decide to believe it? Seems like you have your own religion :D

No. You are attempting to imply equivalence where none exists. People who accept evolution think that there is a common ancestor due to piles upon piles of evidence that points to it. This is why it is a reasonable thing to believe... this belief is based upon something. ID is based on zero scientific basis. This is why it is not reasonable.

You are also again confusing the difference between deciding what someone should learn and what someone should teach with our tax dollars. No one here that I have seen is in any way attempting to infringe upon the right of parents to teach their kids whatever idiotic things they want to teach them. What they ARE arguing against is using public money to teach kids fairy tales when all scientific evidence points to the contrary... and that's not an exaggeration. ID is so worthless, so entirely discredited, such a laughingstock, that to teach it with MY money would be an insult to every thinking person.

Next up, intelligent falling! Remember, science can't actually prove what the gravitational force is right now. I guess thinking gravity exists is a religion too!
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,226
5,802
126
Some early Intelligent Being thought for a moment and said, "Let there be god!" Seemed like a good idea at the time and to be fair, perhaps it was, but we have been dealing with the fallout ever since.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
PC Surgeon

Well if you all believe you came from apes then so be it. Thats not my belief and never will be. Just one question though. If we all came from apes then why are there still apes around? Wouldn't evolution have transformed the remaining apes into humans by now? So silly.

Following the crackpot reasoning of your understanding of evolution, there would always only be one species of life on the planet, each new one replacing the last one.

Now that's silly.

As I have been told many times, simply "believing" is not proof. So why do you believe in the missing link without proof? You were told there was a common ancestor, yet no proof one exists, and you decide to believe it? Seems like you have your own religion :D

I'm usually not this blunt, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't you go read some books about evolution that are written by real evolutionary biologists and get back to me about that common ancestor and every other one of your asinine doubts.
 

Praxis1452

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,197
0
0
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Well if you all believe you came from apes then so be it. Thats not my belief and never will be. Just one question though. If we all came from apes then why are there still apes around? Wouldn't evolution have transformed the remaining apes into humans by now? So silly.

Its ok, there is historical precedence for this. A lot of people clung to the flat earth theory after being shown/taught overwhelming proof that it the Earth was not flat.

Its a radical change of "thought".

It's the 21st century. Darwin published The Origin of Species in 1859. It's not radical, some people are just ignorant.

People who believe in ID think they know more than you. It's pointless to call people ignorant. Argue the data. The simple fact as I see it is that science supports the theory of evolution and fundies support ID. ID is not a science because it predicts nothing, is scientifically useless, and is not amenable to scientific review. It's for a quackpot minority who are playing games. Evolution is science approved. Nut cases disagree. Science is scientific consensus. ID is something about which only nut cases agree.

The questioning of evolution can take place only among scientists. Nut cases needn't apply.

Of course one can ask another question, why do some (not all) people believe science can answer all questions?

If science can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter.

If religion can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter. That's the converse.

Back not quite a century ago, it was determined that there are truths which cannot be proven. That doesn't make them less true, nor does it make others avert their eyes. I'll opt for a larger world.
Isn't belief limiting in itself and what you criticize? If so, by taking that further nihilism seems to be your choice. So be it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,237
6,338
126
Huge numbers of parasites thrive by sucking money out of stupid Christians. The theory of evolution could cause these parasites to go extinct. They are fighting to protect their hosts and keep that blood flowing as best they can. ID is just a form of anti-coagulant.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Of course one can ask another question, why do some (not all) people believe science can answer all questions?

If science can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter.

Please quit pretending you represent or advocate science while spouting ignorant nonsense like this. I know it's considered cool and intellectual on the internet to hold science like a religion as devoutly as any religious fundamentalist, but in real life scientific thinking you are going against everything science stands for and believes in.

And BTW, it is also a scientific fact, every bit as much as evolution, that science cannot answer all questions. Period. It cannot. Even assuming that it were theoretical possible to do so (and it's not), there's the problem that there's not enough time to do it in.

I don't get the religious nut jobs who slander science by calling it religion?

I didn't say science can or has or will anwser all questions. I said it can answer all that matter. Science is based on observations. If I can't observe the difference between to answer to a question then neither is as equally good. For example lets ask the question is their a god. I say no. Nothing happens. I say yes. Nothing happens therefor the question doesn't matter.

Why does it matter? Why are you here?

All the great philosophical questions that people have thought about. A simple question "Why" frustrates science entirely, yet the reflection on the question although unanswerable can enlighten and inspire poetry, art, and yes even science. The determination that Science is by nature incomplete (and you probably think this is a religious reference) has opened questions in all sorts of directions. Some can be answered, some cannot. But asking the question has value.

You have labeled human interest and intellectual curiosity as worthless if it doesn't have an answer science can provide. That's why you are being held up. Your belief is that if science cannot answer the question, it has no value. You therefore make science your religion. You have unwavering faith in it. That's why you are being held out to criticism.

Just so you know, there are a number of highly educated people here, some in more than one field. You ought to seriously consider that those you speak badly of probably know more than you give them credit for. In serious academic circles, your POV would be considered lacking.

The question "Why are you here" is worthless. It isn't worthless because science can't answer it. It is worthless because the answer doesn't matter. It just so happens that set of questions that can be answered by science and the set of worthwhile question are the same. That is because science can only answer questions that are testable and if you can't test your answers then the question is worthless.

The question "Why are we here?" is at the heart and soul of science. Without it, science would never have existed. It what drives the most forward fringes of science to this very day.
I think you do not know what science is.
 

ohnoes

Senior member
Oct 11, 2007
269
0
0
PC Surgeon, can I introduce you to my God? He presides over all that is peanut and holy. He's pretty cool, and I think you'll like Him.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: KIRBYEE
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: KIRBYEE
What is there to support the existence of a creator, creationism or intelligent design?
Where is the creator and what exatcly is he?
Where's the evidence?

I have yet to see any evidence of a creator. Where's he gone hiding?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I understand. But to me it just makes no sense to believe that there's a creator when there's no evidence of him. It makes even less sense when ID or creationism is taught in schools as a viable alternative to evolution without any supporting evidence. Creationists can't even agree on how old the Earth is.

I am NOT advocating creationism or ID. Far from it, I am very much against those.

All I'm saying is that accepting evolution is not at all incompatible with having faith in God.

The Catholics don't teach creationism in the science classes of their many schools, for example. They teach evolution.

What do you mean by faith in God?

It's impossible to believe in The Bible and evolution/science/etc...

Speak for yourself. I do.

How?

How can you believe that there is an afterlife? What about dinosaurs? What about the age of the earth? How about the whole concept of "sin"?

There are tons of things in the Bible that conflict with society, science or what you want to call it.

I don't like saying this but I think anyone who actively believes in God is to a degree morally and intellectually bankrupt.

EDIT: For the record I'm agnostic. I don't believe in any God and I don't think they exist.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
Originally posted by: ohnoes
PC Surgeon, can I introduce you to my God? He presides over all that is peanut and holy. He's pretty cool, and I think you'll like Him.

Peanut-God commands that we eat only Adam's brand natural peanut butter that you have to stir in with the peanut oil -- creamy, not crunchy. Anything else is an abomination before Peanut God, and he will smite the transgressors.



 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
3
76
Originally posted by: Tab




There are tons of things in the Bible that conflict with society, science or what you want to call it.



Can you name a few of these conflicts? I've found in my personal experience from talking with people that what they thought was a conflict or contradiction in the bible were actually misunderstandings.


I don't like saying this but I think anyone who actively believes in God is to a degree morally and intellectually bankrupt.



I've never heard that viewpoint before, can you elaborate on why belief in God would be morally bankrupt?




EDIT: For the record I'm agnostic. I don't believe in any God and I don't think they exist.

 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
3
76
In an effort to get better aquainted with evolution can someone explain a few things for me? I've noticed in some discussions about evolution that terms like "abiogenesis" (sp?), "macro-evolution" and "micro-evolution" are generally looked down upon by people who support evolution and reject religion. Can someone explain to me why this is? Are these not terms that were coined in the scientific community? Or are they terms used by creationist supporters?

I would also like to find a site with a list of terms and definitions commonly used in evolutionary science. Can anyone point me to a good source of online information? Another question I have is what terms are used in the scientific community for explaining the origin of life? Is there a title to this particular endeavor of research?

Thanks
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
Originally posted by: Arkitech
In an effort to get better aquainted with evolution can someone explain a few things for me? I've noticed in some discussions about evolution that terms like "abiogenesis" (sp?), "macro-evolution" and "micro-evolution" are generally looked down upon by people who support evolution and reject religion. Can someone explain to me why this is? Are these not terms that were coined in the scientific community? Or are they terms used by creationist supporters?
They can be useful terms, but creationists tend to misapply them a lot, and so evolutionists have to spend a lot of time explaining themselves.

In a nutshell, abiogenesis is separate from evolution because evolution explains how living organisms diversify their characteristics as they reproduce, whereas abiogenesis would explain how non-living things began to reproduce in the first place. Micro and Macro evolution are simply two different scales of the same thing, like the difference between millimeters and kilometers.

I would also like to find a site with a list of terms and definitions commonly used in evolutionary science. Can anyone point me to a good source of online information? Another question I have is what terms are used in the scientific community for explaining the origin of life? Is there a title to this particular endeavor of research?

Thanks
If you want to learn about evolution, please visit:

http://www.talkorigins.org

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/...te/evo101/IIntro.shtml
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Arkitech
In an effort to get better aquainted with evolution can someone explain a few things for me? I've noticed in some discussions about evolution that terms like "abiogenesis" (sp?), "macro-evolution" and "micro-evolution" are generally looked down upon by people who support evolution and reject religion. Can someone explain to me why this is? Are these not terms that were coined in the scientific community? Or are they terms used by creationist supporters?

I would also like to find a site with a list of terms and definitions commonly used in evolutionary science. Can anyone point me to a good source of online information? Another question I have is what terms are used in the scientific community for explaining the origin of life? Is there a title to this particular endeavor of research?

Thanks

In short:

Abiogenesis is a separate theory from evolution. They don't have anything to do with one another. Evolution is how life came to be how it is today, not how life began.

'Macro' and 'micro' evolution are disparaged mostly because they are viewed as an attempt by creationists to create a distinction where none exists. Most people who accept evolution just view it as a single process.

Finally, while I'm an atheist there are plenty of people who both support evolution and are religious.
 

ohnoes

Senior member
Oct 11, 2007
269
0
0
I would like to make a motion to refocus our discussion on my Peanut God, and the current peanut butter crusade. I find it highly appalling that millions of innocent peanuts each year get masticated into peanut butter, and there is not a single headline in the world. Why is there no attention to this peanutcaust?
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Tab




There are tons of things in the Bible that conflict with society, science or what you want to call it.



Can you name a few of these conflicts? I've found in my personal experience from talking with people that what they thought was a conflict or contradiction in the bible were actually misunderstandings.


I don't like saying this but I think anyone who actively believes in God is to a degree morally and intellectually bankrupt.



I've never heard that viewpoint before, can you elaborate on why belief in God would be morally bankrupt?




EDIT: For the record I'm agnostic. I don't believe in any God and I don't think they exist.

I already did list several examples, but I do it again. Let's take the flood for example. There isn't enough water on the planet to "flood" the entire planet. The concept of the "ark" is essentially impossible.

A belief in God is morally/intellectually bankrupt because you're going against what makes us so successful as humans. Look at the all the religious wars, look at those whom claim their "God" is the one.
 

KIRBYEE

Banned
Mar 10, 2007
188
0
0
Originally posted by: ohnoes
I would like to make a motion to refocus our discussion on my Peanut God, and the current peanut butter crusade. I find it highly appalling that millions of innocent peanuts each year get masticated into peanut butter, and there is not a single headline in the world. Why is there no attention to this peanutcaust?

That made me lol. :cookie::cool:

Peanutcaust.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Well if you all believe you came from apes then so be it. Thats not my belief and never will be. Just one question though. If we all came from apes then why are there still apes around? Wouldn't evolution have transformed the remaining apes into humans by now? So silly.

Right here.

This is the exact reason why many religious folks object so strongly to the theory of evolution. It's as if they cannot fathom the fact that humans and animals share a common ancestor (or in this particular ignorant view, that we CAME from apes).

But I digress, there's something about humans being highly evolved animals that does not jive with Christianity. Perhaps because it clashes with their belief that we are of divine origin ... something special ... different from animals. I guess it must really burn your world view pretty harshly to realize we're essentially monkeys with big brains. Well, at least some of us anyway.

:laugh:

LOL your first mistake is thinking I'm of the religious mind set. I'm not in the "traditional" way. I believe a mixture of evolution and ID or "God said let there be man". But what I believed was never the question here, the question is whether kids should be allowed to learn ID instead of evolution in school. In that aspect I haven't changed my mind. No one, no matter how sure they are that they're doing the right thing, should ever lord over another individual and decide what they will believe or learn.

WTH? So if enough people want 2 + 2 = 5 then our public schools should be able to teach it?

Look, its real simple. We are talking about what is taught in SCIENCE class. Whenever ID passes muster as a scientific theory we can teach it in science class, deal? What gives YOU the right to rewrite/ignore the fundamental rules of science when it comes to what we teach in public schools?

Teach your own child that the Earth is flat but don't handicap other peoples children.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: KIRBYEE
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: KIRBYEE
What is there to support the existence of a creator, creationism or intelligent design?
Where is the creator and what exatcly is he?
Where's the evidence?

I have yet to see any evidence of a creator. Where's he gone hiding?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I understand. But to me it just makes no sense to believe that there's a creator when there's no evidence of him. It makes even less sense when ID or creationism is taught in schools as a viable alternative to evolution without any supporting evidence. Creationists can't even agree on how old the Earth is.

I am NOT advocating creationism or ID. Far from it, I am very much against those.

All I'm saying is that accepting evolution is not at all incompatible with having faith in God.

The Catholics don't teach creationism in the science classes of their many schools, for example. They teach evolution.

What do you mean by faith in God?

It's impossible to believe in The Bible and evolution/science/etc...

Speak for yourself. I do.

How?

How can you believe that there is an afterlife? What about dinosaurs? What about the age of the earth? How about the whole concept of "sin"?

There are tons of things in the Bible that conflict with society, science or what you want to call it.

I don't like saying this but I think anyone who actively believes in God is to a degree morally and intellectually bankrupt.

EDIT: For the record I'm agnostic. I don't believe in any God and I don't think they exist.

That's why it's called belief. I don't have to explain it to you or anyone. They're my beliefs.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Dari
That's why it's called belief. I don't have to explain it to you or anyone. They're my beliefs.
Which is cool as long as you don't try to force others into believing it (which you don't). Teaching Creationism in school is fine if you teach it in the proper course which is alongside Greek, Roman and Norse Mythology.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: KIRBYEE
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: KIRBYEE
What is there to support the existence of a creator, creationism or intelligent design?
Where is the creator and what exatcly is he?
Where's the evidence?

I have yet to see any evidence of a creator. Where's he gone hiding?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I understand. But to me it just makes no sense to believe that there's a creator when there's no evidence of him. It makes even less sense when ID or creationism is taught in schools as a viable alternative to evolution without any supporting evidence. Creationists can't even agree on how old the Earth is.

I am NOT advocating creationism or ID. Far from it, I am very much against those.

All I'm saying is that accepting evolution is not at all incompatible with having faith in God.

The Catholics don't teach creationism in the science classes of their many schools, for example. They teach evolution.

What do you mean by faith in God?

It's impossible to believe in The Bible and evolution/science/etc...

This view is pretty much the same view that many Creationists have. It seems there isn't much difference between either side, at least in some cases.

FRANCIS COLLINS
Director, National Human Genome Research Institute

I see no conflict in what the Bible tells me about God and what science tells me about nature. Like St. Augustine in A.D. 400, I do not find the wording of Genesis 1 and 2 to suggest a scientific textbook but a powerful and poetic description of God's intentions in creating the universe. The mechanism of creation is left unspecified. If God, who is all powerful and who is not limited by space and time, chose to use the mechanism of evolution to create you and me, who are we to say that wasn't an absolutely elegant plan? And if God has now given us the intelligence and the opportunity to discover his methods, that is something to celebrate.

I lead the Human Genome Project, which has now revealed all of the 3 billion letters of our own DNA instruction book. I am also a Christian. For me scientific discovery is also an occasion of worship.

Nearly all working biologists accept that the principles of variation and natural selection explain how multiple species evolved from a common ancestor over very long periods of time. I find no compelling examples that this process is insufficient to explain the rich variety of life forms present on this planet. While no one could claim yet to have ferreted out every detail of how evolution works, I do not see any significant "gaps" in the progressive development of life's complex structures that would require divine intervention. In any case, efforts to insert God into the gaps of contemporary human understanding of nature have not fared well in the past, and we should be careful not to do that now.

Science's tools will never prove or disprove God's existence. For me the fundamental answers about the meaning of life come not from science but from a consideration of the origins of our uniquely human sense of right and wrong, and from the historical record of Christ's life on Earth.

Now this man says he's a Christian. Maybe not the Christian you would want him to be. You know, one of those who can't wait to seize your children and indoctrinate them in class. Then again there really aren't many of those, just a few with very big mouths. Kind of like AT peeps. Note he does not favor teaching ID, nor does he disagree with evolution.

If you don't know who Francis Collins is, you have the Almighty Google at your disposal.

All you have to do now is to show he's not a Christian (and you don't get to decide what that is, he does) AND show he's not a scientist. Good luck with that.


Ignorance is really a two way street. It's religion neutral.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
I'm tired of this discussion.

Evolution and religion, for the hundredth time, are not mutually exclusive. Neither are science and religion.

This isn't about analysis. It's a stupid pissing contest.
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
3
76
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Tab




There are tons of things in the Bible that conflict with society, science or what you want to call it.



Can you name a few of these conflicts? I've found in my personal experience from talking with people that what they thought was a conflict or contradiction in the bible were actually misunderstandings.


I don't like saying this but I think anyone who actively believes in God is to a degree morally and intellectually bankrupt.



I've never heard that viewpoint before, can you elaborate on why belief in God would be morally bankrupt?




EDIT: For the record I'm agnostic. I don't believe in any God and I don't think they exist.

I already did list several examples, but I do it again. Let's take the flood for example. There isn't enough water on the planet to "flood" the entire planet. The concept of the "ark" is essentially impossible.




There have been numerous studies done on whether the flood is possible and there is certaintly enough water to cover the planet. Considering during that time in history the climate of the planet was different, there were no areas of extreme cold. Water in the form of ice, snow and glaciars would not be collected in one area the way it is today. Also there's a possibility that the mountains as we know them today were not quite as tall. There's extensive information both for and against the flood, from the bit that I've read I'm convinced that a world wide flood is possible. As far as the ark goes, it was basically a big wooden box. Why would that be impossible?



A belief in God is morally/intellectually bankrupt because you're going against what makes us so successful as humans. Look at the all the religious wars, look at those whom claim their "God" is the one.




Just because a person claims something to be true does'nt make it so. That's been the major arguments in these evolution/creation threads. And any religion claiming God is on their on side while slaughtering people in war, I would doubt anything that they say in connection with the bible. Some people in this world are certaintly successful (in a sense) without a religious connection. However some people credit the bible and God for being morally clean and having success with a happy family. Success in life is more than just money, possessions, acheivements at work, etc..

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Originally posted by: Atreus21
I'm tired of this discussion.

Evolution and religion, for the hundredth time, are not mutually exclusive. Neither are science and religion.

This isn't about analysis. It's a stupid pissing contest.

Ding Ding!

Yes it is, especially in an internet forum. The real debate about teaching ID or not has been lost in the drivel. I'm for religious freedom of expression, but not taught as part of a class.

Science should be taught as such. On the other hand if those who expressed a religious POV were as portrayed, then this would certainly not be an issue. It would have been part of the educational system already. I don't want religious ideas taught as such in school, and I don't want my children taught someone elses "enlightened" morality either. That's not the job of government. EVERYONE keep your hands off my kids.