Louisiana passes first antievolution "academic freedom" law

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smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Well if you all believe you came from apes then so be it. Thats not my belief and never will be. Just one question though. If we all came from apes then why are there still apes around? Wouldn't evolution have transformed the remaining apes into humans by now? So silly.

Its ok, there is historical precedence for this. A lot of people clung to the flat earth theory after being shown/taught overwhelming proof that it the Earth was not flat.

Its a radical change of "thought".

It's the 21st century. Darwin published The Origin of Species in 1859. It's not radical, some people are just ignorant.

People who believe in ID think they know more than you. It's pointless to call people ignorant. Argue the data. The simple fact as I see it is that science supports the theory of evolution and fundies support ID. ID is not a science because it predicts nothing, is scientifically useless, and is not amenable to scientific review. It's for a quackpot minority who are playing games. Evolution is science approved. Nut cases disagree. Science is scientific consensus. ID is something about which only nut cases agree.

The questioning of evolution can take place only among scientists. Nut cases needn't apply.

Of course one can ask another question, why do some (not all) people believe science can answer all questions?

If science can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter.

If religion can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter. That's the converse.

Back not quite a century ago, it was determined that there are truths which cannot be proven. That doesn't make them less true, nor does it make others avert their eyes. I'll opt for a larger world.

You can say it is the converse but that doesn't make it true. Why don't you open up your holy book and tell me what the next set of powerball numbers are. There just proved your claim wrong or made a few million dollars.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Well if you all believe you came from apes then so be it. Thats not my belief and never will be. Just one question though. If we all came from apes then why are there still apes around? Wouldn't evolution have transformed the remaining apes into humans by now? So silly.

Its ok, there is historical precedence for this. A lot of people clung to the flat earth theory after being shown/taught overwhelming proof that it the Earth was not flat.

Its a radical change of "thought".

It's the 21st century. Darwin published The Origin of Species in 1859. It's not radical, some people are just ignorant.

People who believe in ID think they know more than you. It's pointless to call people ignorant. Argue the data. The simple fact as I see it is that science supports the theory of evolution and fundies support ID. ID is not a science because it predicts nothing, is scientifically useless, and is not amenable to scientific review. It's for a quackpot minority who are playing games. Evolution is science approved. Nut cases disagree. Science is scientific consensus. ID is something about which only nut cases agree.

The questioning of evolution can take place only among scientists. Nut cases needn't apply.

Of course one can ask another question, why do some (not all) people believe science can answer all questions?

If science can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter.

If religion can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter. That's the converse.

Back not quite a century ago, it was determined that there are truths which cannot be proven. That doesn't make them less true, nor does it make others avert their eyes. I'll opt for a larger world.

You can say it is the converse but that doesn't make it true. Why don't you open up your holy book and tell me what the next set of powerball numbers are. There just proved your claim wrong or made a few million dollars.

Your ignorance is showing. You don't even know what I'm talking about do you?

Without doing a search, what do you know about the Principia Mathematica, and why does it matter in this context?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Of course one can ask another question, why do some (not all) people believe science can answer all questions?

If science can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter.

Please quit pretending you represent or advocate science while spouting ignorant nonsense like this. I know it's considered cool and intellectual on the internet to hold science like a religion as devoutly as any religious fundamentalist, but in real life scientific thinking you are going against everything science stands for and believes in.

And BTW, it is also a scientific fact, every bit as much as evolution, that science cannot answer all questions. Period. It cannot. Even assuming that it were theoretical possible to do so (and it's not), there's the problem that there's not enough time to do it in.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Of course one can ask another question, why do some (not all) people believe science can answer all questions?

If science can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter.

Please quit pretending you represent or advocate science while spouting ignorant nonsense like this. I know it's considered cool and intellectual on the internet to hold science like a religion as devoutly as any religious fundamentalist, but in real life scientific thinking you are going against everything science stands for and believes in.

And BTW, it is also a scientific fact, every bit as much as evolution, that science cannot answer all questions. Period. It cannot. Even assuming that it were theoretical possible to do so (and it's not), there's the problem that there's not enough time to do it in.

I don't get the religious nut jobs who slander science by calling it religion?

I didn't say science can or has or will anwser all questions. I said it can answer all that matter. Science is based on observations. If I can't observe the difference between to answer to a question then neither is as equally good. For example lets ask the question is their a god. I say no. Nothing happens. I say yes. Nothing happens therefor the question doesn't matter.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Of course one can ask another question, why do some (not all) people believe science can answer all questions?

If science can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter.

Please quit pretending you represent or advocate science while spouting ignorant nonsense like this. I know it's considered cool and intellectual on the internet to hold science like a religion as devoutly as any religious fundamentalist, but in real life scientific thinking you are going against everything science stands for and believes in.

And BTW, it is also a scientific fact, every bit as much as evolution, that science cannot answer all questions. Period. It cannot. Even assuming that it were theoretical possible to do so (and it's not), there's the problem that there's not enough time to do it in.

I don't get the religious nut jobs who slander science by calling it religion?

I didn't say science can or has or will anwser all questions. I said it can answer all that matter. Science is based on observations. If I can't observe the difference between to answer to a question then neither is as equally good. For example lets ask the question is their a god. I say no. Nothing happens. I say yes. Nothing happens therefor the question doesn't matter.

I'm not a religious nutjob, and unless you -- Smack Down the ATPN poster -- just magically became the embodiment of all that is science, I did not slander science by calling it a religion either.

:roll:
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
60
91
Originally posted by: smack Down

If science can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter.

Science can't answer all the questions. In fact, the most important thing scientists can do is to acknowledge that it doesn't have all the answers and that it isn't afraid to challenge so-called authority ask questions, especially those who base their authority only on myth, fantasy and legend.
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
3
76
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Well if you all believe you came from apes then so be it. Thats not my belief and never will be. Just one question though. If we all came from apes then why are there still apes around? Wouldn't evolution have transformed the remaining apes into humans by now? So silly.

I'll ask a simpler question - why aren't all humans the same color? The answer is because as we spread out across the globe, we intermingled continuously with those near us. Genetic mutations eventually caused the variations we see in humanity today.

Apes still exist because we share a common ancestor with them. When the first proto-humans emerged, they didn't start having sex with all the apes and producing more proto-humans. They had sex and reproduced with a small group of apes / proto-humans which took on increasingly divergent characteristics from the general ape population.

Also, I hate to say it again, but evolution is not a belief, it's a fact. Please, please go read a few good books or articles on how we evolved. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

Finally, you say evolution is "so silly." I find the idea that God created us and that we suddenly appeared somewhere in Africa out of nowhere to be even sillier. Please tell me, were apes just wandering around with the lions and tigers and then, ala Terminator 2, some huge electrical cloud appeared and *bam* humans showed up? IF that were the case, then why do we have overwhelming evidence of proto-humans (Neanderthals, Cro-Magnons, etc)? Did God put those fossils there to test our faith?

What is the common ancestor?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: smack Down

If science can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter.

Science can't answer all the questions. In fact, the most important thing scientists can do is to acknowledge that it doesn't have all the answers, but that it isn't afraid to challenge so-called authority ask questions, especially those who base their authority only on myth, fantasy and legend.

Exactly. To claim that science can answer all questions (or even just all those questions that matter, whatever that means) is to make science into a religion.
Because only religions claim to have all the answers.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Of course one can ask another question, why do some (not all) people believe science can answer all questions?

If science can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter.

Please quit pretending you represent or advocate science while spouting ignorant nonsense like this. I know it's considered cool and intellectual on the internet to hold science like a religion as devoutly as any religious fundamentalist, but in real life scientific thinking you are going against everything science stands for and believes in.

And BTW, it is also a scientific fact, every bit as much as evolution, that science cannot answer all questions. Period. It cannot. Even assuming that it were theoretical possible to do so (and it's not), there's the problem that there's not enough time to do it in.

I don't get the religious nut jobs who slander science by calling it religion?

I didn't say science can or has or will anwser all questions. I said it can answer all that matter. Science is based on observations. If I can't observe the difference between to answer to a question then neither is as equally good. For example lets ask the question is their a god. I say no. Nothing happens. I say yes. Nothing happens therefor the question doesn't matter.

Why does it matter? Why are you here?

All the great philosophical questions that people have thought about. A simple question "Why" frustrates science entirely, yet the reflection on the question although unanswerable can enlighten and inspire poetry, art, and yes even science. The determination that Science is by nature incomplete (and you probably think this is a religious reference) has opened questions in all sorts of directions. Some can be answered, some cannot. But asking the question has value.

You have labeled human interest and intellectual curiosity as worthless if it doesn't have an answer science can provide. That's why you are being held up. Your belief is that if science cannot answer the question, it has no value. You therefore make science your religion. You have unwavering faith in it. That's why you are being held out to criticism.

Just so you know, there are a number of highly educated people here, some in more than one field. You ought to seriously consider that those you speak badly of probably know more than you give them credit for. In serious academic circles, your POV would be considered lacking.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Arkitech
What is the common ancestor?

Is great-great-great grandfather still alive today?

?

It's a similar question with the same answer.

How many surviving descendants do think your great-great-great grandfather has today, and do you think they are all the same genetically?
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
3
76
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Arkitech
What is the common ancestor?

Is great-great-great grandfather still alive today?

?

It's a similar question with the same answer.

How many surviving descendants do think your great-great-great grandfather has today, and do you think they are all the same genetically?

The assertion made earlier in this thread is that apes and humans have common ancestors. So a logical question is what is that ancestor? I'm looking for articles or studies that support this claim, your answer was'nt quite what I was looking for. (no offense)
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
60
91
Originally posted by: ohnoes
I firmly believe that God evolved from a peanut. A delicious peanut.

God created man in his image, and man, being a gentleman, returned the compliment.

~Mark Twain
 

ohnoes

Senior member
Oct 11, 2007
269
0
0
Are you calling me a peanut? That's not very nice. In fact, its offends my religious values.
 

ohnoes

Senior member
Oct 11, 2007
269
0
0
Did he use peanut oil as an accelerant? I hope not, or else my God will pebble him to death with peanuts, and other assorted nuts.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
60
91
Originally posted by: ohnoes
Are you calling me a peanut? That's not very nice. In fact, its offends my religious values.

All of your religious values are belong to Skippy. :laugh:
 
Oct 25, 2006
11,036
11
91
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Arkitech
What is the common ancestor?

Is great-great-great grandfather still alive today?

?

It's a similar question with the same answer.

How many surviving descendants do think your great-great-great grandfather has today, and do you think they are all the same genetically?

The assertion made earlier in this thread is that apes and humans have common ancestors. So a logical question is what is that ancestor? I'm looking for articles or studies that support this claim, your answer was'nt quite what I was looking for. (no offense)

"In the 19th century, they speculated that the closest living relatives of humans are chimpanzees. Based on the natural range of these creatures, they surmised that humans share a common ancestor with other African great apes and that fossils of these ancestors would be found in Africa. It is now accepted by virtually all biologists that humans are not only similar to the great apes but, in fact, are great apes."

"It has been suggested that species close to last common ancestors of gorillas, chimpanzees and humans may be represented by Nakalipithecus fossils found in Kenya and Ouranopithecus found in Greece. Molecular evidence suggests that between 8 and 4 mya, first the gorillas, and then the chimpanzee (genus Pan) split off from the line leading to the humans; human DNA is 98.4 percent identical to the DNA of chimpanzees.[9] "

The common ancestor was a ..primate.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Arkitech
What is the common ancestor?

Is great-great-great grandfather still alive today?

?

It's a similar question with the same answer.

How many surviving descendants do think your great-great-great grandfather has today, and do you think they are all the same genetically?

The assertion made earlier in this thread is that apes and humans have common ancestors. So a logical question is what is that ancestor? I'm looking for articles or studies that support this claim, your answer was'nt quite what I was looking for. (no offense)

http://anthropology.si.edu/HumanOrigins/ha/primate.html
Our understanding of the fossil record shows that distinctively human traits appeared neither recently nor all at once. Rather, they evolved piecemeal over a period of roughly 5 million years. By 4 million years ago, humans were habitually bipedal (walking on two legs) yet had brains roughly a third of the size of a modern human's (about the size of a modern ape's brain). By 2.5 million years ago the manufacture of stone tools was common. Large increases in brain size occurred even later. Complex behaviors such as adaptation to a wide range of environments and cultural diversification emerged only within the last 100,000 years.

http://news.nationalgeographic...pe_human_ancestor.html
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Honestly I have no problem with people voting this kind of stuff into law. Let them devolve into some lower form of human. What I have problems with is then, in that poverty stricken, sickly society they have created for themselves they gets bailed out with federal dollars.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Honestly I have no problem with people voting this kind of stuff into law. Let them devolve into some lower form of human. What I have problems with is then, in that poverty stricken, sickly society they have created for themselves they gets bailed out with federal dollars.

The main problem is that they are dragging other people down with them. If idiots want to retreat into their compounds and teach their kids whatever awful stuff they feel like, that's their business. When they try to put it in public schools where it can mess with other kids' education though, then it's a problem.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Of course one can ask another question, why do some (not all) people believe science can answer all questions?

If science can't answer the question then the answer doesn't matter.

Please quit pretending you represent or advocate science while spouting ignorant nonsense like this. I know it's considered cool and intellectual on the internet to hold science like a religion as devoutly as any religious fundamentalist, but in real life scientific thinking you are going against everything science stands for and believes in.

And BTW, it is also a scientific fact, every bit as much as evolution, that science cannot answer all questions. Period. It cannot. Even assuming that it were theoretical possible to do so (and it's not), there's the problem that there's not enough time to do it in.

I don't get the religious nut jobs who slander science by calling it religion?

I didn't say science can or has or will anwser all questions. I said it can answer all that matter. Science is based on observations. If I can't observe the difference between to answer to a question then neither is as equally good. For example lets ask the question is their a god. I say no. Nothing happens. I say yes. Nothing happens therefor the question doesn't matter.

Why does it matter? Why are you here?

All the great philosophical questions that people have thought about. A simple question "Why" frustrates science entirely, yet the reflection on the question although unanswerable can enlighten and inspire poetry, art, and yes even science. The determination that Science is by nature incomplete (and you probably think this is a religious reference) has opened questions in all sorts of directions. Some can be answered, some cannot. But asking the question has value.

You have labeled human interest and intellectual curiosity as worthless if it doesn't have an answer science can provide. That's why you are being held up. Your belief is that if science cannot answer the question, it has no value. You therefore make science your religion. You have unwavering faith in it. That's why you are being held out to criticism.

Just so you know, there are a number of highly educated people here, some in more than one field. You ought to seriously consider that those you speak badly of probably know more than you give them credit for. In serious academic circles, your POV would be considered lacking.

The question "Why are you here" is worthless. It isn't worthless because science can't answer it. It is worthless because the answer doesn't matter. It just so happens that set of questions that can be answered by science and the set of worthwhile question are the same. That is because science can only answer questions that are testable and if you can't test your answers then the question is worthless.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
The main problem is that they are dragging other people down with them. If idiots want to retreat into their compounds and teach their kids whatever awful stuff they feel like, that's their business. When they try to put it in public schools where it can mess with other kids' education though, then it's a problem.

I agree it does suck. I would suggest all able bodied humans to run away from such states never to look back. give them a hundred years like that and we can come back in and enslave the population with plastic trinkets and fast food then send them on holy crusades around the world while we get RICH muhahahah. ohh wait...