Louisiana passes first antievolution "academic freedom" law

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
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My sympathy goes out to the people of Louisiana who will have to deal with this crap in their public schools. I had a lot of respect for this governor until today.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ar...demic-freedom-law.html

Louisiana passes first antievolution "academic freedom" law
By John Timmer | Published: June 27, 2008 - 02:13PM CT

As we noted last month, a number of states have been considering laws that, under the guise of "academic freedom," single out evolution for special criticism. Most of them haven't made it out of the state legislatures, and one that did was promptly vetoed. But the last of these bills under consideration, the Louisiana Science Education Act (LSEA), was enacted by the signature of Governor Bobby Jindal yesterday. The bill would allow local school boards to approve supplemental classroom materials specifically for the critique of scientific theories, allowing poorly-informed board members to stick their communities with Dover-sized legal fees.

The text of the LSEA suggests that it's intended to foster critical thinking, calling on the state Board of Education to "assist teachers, principals, and other school administrators to create and foster an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that promotes critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories." Unfortunately, it's remarkably selective in its suggestion of topics that need critical thinking, as it cites scientific subjects "including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning."

Oddly, the last item on the list is not the subject of any scientific theory; the remainder are notable for being topics that are the focus of frequent political controversies rather than scientific ones.

The opposition
The bill has been opposed by every scientific society that has voiced a position on it, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science. AAAS CEO Alan Leshner warned that the bill would "unleash an assault against scientific integrity, leaving students confused about science and unprepared to excel in a modern workforce."

Jindal, who was a biology major during his time at Brown University, even received a veto plea from his former genetics professor. "Without evolution, modern biology, including medicine and biotechnology, wouldn't make sense," Professor Arthur Landy wrote. "I hope he [Jindal] doesn't do anything that would hold back the next generation of Louisiana's doctors."

Lining up to promote the bill were a coalition of religious organizations and Seattle's pro-Intelligent Design think tank, the Discovery Institute. According to the Louisiana Science Coalition, Discovery fellows helped write the bill and arranged for testimony in its favor in the legislature. The bill itself plays directly into Discovery's strategy, freeing local schools to "use supplemental textbooks and other instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner."

Discovery, conveniently, has made just such a supplemental text available. As we noted in our earlier analysis, Discovery hopes to use these bills as a way to push its own textbook into the classroom. Having now read the text of the book, it is clear that our earlier analysis was correct; the book badly misrepresents the scientific community's understanding of evolution in order to suggest that the basics of the theory are questioned by biologists. In doing so, it ignores many of the specific questions about evolution that are actively debated by scientists.

Courts in Pennsylvania and Georgia have both ruled that laws which single out evolution serve no secular purpose and are evidence of unconstitutional religious motivations. Those precedents, however, do not apply to Louisiana, and it's possible that the LSEA will either be ruled constitutional or remain in force for years before a court rejects it. That will leave the use of supplemental scientific material to be determined by local school boards in the intervening years and, if boards in Florida are viewed as evidence, they are likely to be spectacularly incapable of judging scientific issues.

As such, most observers are expecting the passage of the LSEA by the state to unleash a series of Dover-style cases, as various local boards attempt to discover the edges of what's constitutionally allowable. The AAAS' Leshner suggested that the bill's passage would "provoke an expensive, divisive legal fight." In vetoing similar legislation in Oklahoma, Governor Brad Henry suggested it would end up "subjecting them [school officials] to an explosion of costly and protracted litigation that would have to be defended at taxpayers' expense." In essence, Jindal is inviting local school boards to partake in that explosion without committing the state to paying the inevitable costs.

In the meantime, the students of the state will be subjected to an "anything goes" approach to science?if it looks scientific to a school board, it can appear in the classroom.

 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
Jindal is a friggin idiot. I heard him talking about ID last week, and I don't know what he was doing in his Biology classes... but how he describes the science is just fundamentally flawed and misunderstood. "Teach all the best science" my ass. Its not science, it doesn't follow the scientific method, and is unable to explain any observations or re-interpret long held theories in anything but the most vague, broad and superficial way. Let alone able to make any predictions. All of which any good science, which includes evolutionary theory, is able to do.

ID doesn't teach anything but dispersion and doubt. It is a hollow idea that can only exist by undermining evolution through ignorance and misrepresentation rather than be a competitive explanation scrutinized by reason and facts.

This I put my biology degree on.

I cannot understand the anti-science, anti-reason, pro-supernaturalism, pro-ignorance mentality of the conservative movement. America will not succeed by making its children dumber and mis-educated because a few choose to define their religious thought to a very narrow and shallow interpretation of the body of Christian religious teachings and experience.
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
0
I see no threat in this. Bad science is an epidemic at this time, and there are often political agendas behind it. The global warming stuff is flawed from beginning to end, but it still gets force fed with great hostitly for any disagreement. I have no issue with evolution as a principle but I see no reason to teach that human's are from apes since jillions of fossils are missing when they shouldn't be (democrats being from apes maybe). If people want to allow room for controversies about human origins I could not care less. The UK also passed laws to counter global warming rubbish ala Gore and more power to them. I feel like I am re-living the 1930's and rugenics with all the incredibly shoddy science going around (and psychologists/psychiatrists are some of the most guilty of al). There are weirdos on creation side and weirdos on the evolution side. It's not so bad they keep each other busy imo.

Schools must warn of Gore climate film bias
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...climate-film-bias.html
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,305
136
Let me just be the first to chime in this thread and say that evolution is a fact. While I'm not a biologist (prefer physics), I'd be happy to discuss details with those who disagree. I'd also like to find out just why you think this theory undermines your religious faith, when the larger consensus (outside of fundie churches and the south) is that science is discovering the glory of God. And I want to stress that last part for the religious faithful, as I grew up in a devout young earth creationist faith myself. However glorious you imagine God to be, absolutely pales in comparison to what science has discovered that God is. So what's the fight here? I dunno. I vaguely remember being taught to distrust science, but the logic didn't hold up. As science is not incompatible with God, just the authority structure of religions.


 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
Originally posted by: Butterbean
I see no threat in this. Bad science is an epidemic at this time, and there are often political agendas behind it. The global warming stuff is flawed from beginning to end, but it still gets force fed with great hostitly for any disagreement. I have no issue with evolution as a principle but I see no reason to teach that human's are from apes since jillions of fossils are missing when they shouldn't be (democrats being from apes maybe). If people want to allow room for controversies about human origins I could not care less. The UK also passed laws to counter global warming rubbish ala Gore and more power to them. I feel like I am re-living the 1930's and rugenics with all the incredibly shoddy science going around (and psychologists/psychiatrists are some of the most guilty of al). There are weirdos on creation side and weirdos on the evolution side. It's not so bad they keep each other busy imo.

Schools must warn of Gore climate film bias
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...climate-film-bias.html

Thank you for proving my point.
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,049
6,848
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I know this isn't good for anything responding directly to Butterbean, but I shall do it anyway (since this one doesn't seem to far out of left field).

Bad Science isn't necessarily prevalent, it's more of the way that science is taught to children. They must understand that there is a process that is taking place - a falsifyable hypothesis is thought up to explain something and through experimentation and observation, a theory can potentially be created if the evidence backs the hypothesis or a new hypothesis can be formed. Science isn't only about the end result; it is about the journey.

We are not from apes. We merely share a common ancestor.

Missing fossils is bullsh1t seeing as how fossilization does not easily occur. There must be certain conditions for fossils to form, otherwise, biological material simply breaks down.

Gore != climatologist. And as far as GW is concerned, even if it isn't really a problem, is it really such a bad thing if we limit the amount of pollution (which is known to cause acid rain and health hazards to humans)? Is it such a bad thing if we limit our consumption of fuels since they are not unlimited?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,305
136
Originally posted by: Butterbean
I see no threat in this. Bad science is an epidemic at this time, and there are often political agendas behind it. The global warming stuff is flawed from beginning to end, but it still gets force fed with great hostitly for any disagreement. I have no issue with evolution as a principle but I see no reason to teach that human's are from apes since jillions of fossils are missing when they shouldn't be (democrats being from apes maybe). If people want to allow room for controversies about human origins I could not care less. The UK also passed laws to counter global warming rubbish ala Gore and more power to them. I feel like I am re-living the 1930's and rugenics with all the incredibly shoddy science going around (and psychologists/psychiatrists are some of the most guilty of al). There are weirdos on creation side and weirdos on the evolution side. It's not so bad they keep each other busy imo.

Schools must warn of Gore climate film bias
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...climate-film-bias.html

Are you trying to make yourself a poster child for the need for better science education?

First, global warming and evolution are 2 entirely different theories. You can't point to the weaknesses in one as proof of weakness in the other. That's a severe lack of critical thinking.

Second, we are descended from apes. Not directly, but through common ancestors. Get used it. It's a proven fact.

Third, you are completely free to believe whatever you want. You are also completely free to teach your beliefs to your children. Unlike you, I actually support this freedom in the most patriotic manner you could never even imagine, Tory that you are. What you are not free to do, however, is spread your lies to my children. Get that through your head.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Citrix in the OT thread and Butterbean in this one. These guys must be from Lousiana.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
What the heck, I'll post it here again.
Everyone seems to simply ignore it when I posted it in other relevant threads (another evolution one in OT), but what the heck. :)

Evolution is proven. It happens constantly. Bacteria adapt. Birds adapt. Insects adapt.
If bacteria didn't evolve, we wouldn't need new medications. We wouldn't need new flu vaccines.

The only reason we don't see new "species" evolving is because of how we defined what a "species" is. It's an arbitrary classification. I could redefine "species" such that a tabby cat would be a different species than a black one. Or I could define all mammalian life as being of the same species.
Because of our broad definition of what a species is, and because of our short lifespans, we can't watch a variety of fish go through thousands upon thousands of generations until it a new species develops.

So-called "microevolution" happens. It's observed fact. Give it more time, and you get the "macroevolution" that is the source of all the controversy. Can't accept one and reject the other. You might as well accept the existence of puppies, but reject the existence of dogs.


It's unfortunate to see science take a step backward like this.

Still relevant:
"We accepted the products of science; we rejected its methods." - Carl Sagan

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Butterbean
I see no threat in this. Bad science is an epidemic at this time, and there are often political agendas behind it. The global warming stuff is flawed from beginning to end, but it still gets force fed with great hostitly for any disagreement. I have no issue with evolution as a principle but I see no reason to teach that human's are from apes since jillions of fossils are missing when they shouldn't be (democrats being from apes maybe). If people want to allow room for controversies about human origins I could not care less. The UK also passed laws to counter global warming rubbish ala Gore and more power to them. I feel like I am re-living the 1930's and rugenics with all the incredibly shoddy science going around (and psychologists/psychiatrists are some of the most guilty of al). There are weirdos on creation side and weirdos on the evolution side. It's not so bad they keep each other busy imo.

Schools must warn of Gore climate film bias
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...climate-film-bias.html

Learn science, then open cake hole. It would appear you have those two mixed up.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
The ID/creationist people disgust me. Not only are they smug in their ignorance of science (which is merely pathetic), but they are fully aware that their stance is based on religious beliefs that have been ruled illegal to inject into public education, and yet they continue to try to find creative ways to defy the law.

These are our home-grown religious fanatics.
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
0
Originally posted by: Hafen
Originally posted by: Butterbean
I see no threat in this. Bad science is an epidemic at this time, and there are often political agendas behind it. The global warming stuff is flawed from beginning to end, but it still gets force fed with great hostitly for any disagreement. I have no issue with evolution as a principle but I see no reason to teach that human's are from apes since jillions of fossils are missing when they shouldn't be (democrats being from apes maybe). If people want to allow room for controversies about human origins I could not care less. The UK also passed laws to counter global warming rubbish ala Gore and more power to them. I feel like I am re-living the 1930's and rugenics with all the incredibly shoddy science going around (and psychologists/psychiatrists are some of the most guilty of al). There are weirdos on creation side and weirdos on the evolution side. It's not so bad they keep each other busy imo.

Schools must warn of Gore climate film bias
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...climate-film-bias.html

Thank you for proving my point.

I thought thats what that was on the top of your head.

 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
The future of America demands getting rid of evil subject like science, and more religion!! See how well other countries are doing now when religion dominates society....hmmm
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
0
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
I know this isn't good for anything responding directly to Butterbean, but I shall do it anyway (since this one doesn't seem to far out of left field).

Bad Science isn't necessarily prevalent, it's more of the way that science is taught to children. They must understand that there is a process that is taking place - a falsifyable hypothesis is thought up to explain something and through experimentation and observation, a theory can potentially be created if the evidence backs the hypothesis or a new hypothesis can be formed. Science isn't only about the end result; it is about the journey.

We are not from apes. We merely share a common ancestor.

Missing fossils is bullsh1t seeing as how fossilization does not easily occur. There must be certain conditions for fossils to form, otherwise, biological material simply breaks down.

Gore != climatologist. And as far as GW is concerned, even if it isn't really a problem, is it really such a bad thing if we limit the amount of pollution (which is known to cause acid rain and health hazards to humans)? Is it such a bad thing if we limit our consumption of fuels since they are not unlimited?


Gore was just an example of the rampant "scientism" going on. Lots of so called "climatologists" also peddle Gores distortions. I just finished posting about the Mann hockey stick in another forum and still cant believe educated people ever fell for that knowing any statisitcs or past climate history knowledge.

I agree about teaching "process" vs end results but too often I read or get told "the debate is over..the data is in!"...etc etc. and then lots of ridicule gets applied to anyone not in agreement. Too many theories are incomplete or make no sense and get preached as gospel just to be abandoned or reconfigured when a new idea or bone gets dug up. I understand that would be part of an honest process but too much arrogance and hostiity comes from too many of the people screaming "objectivity!".

Many people today have knowledge without any sensible understanding with which to arrange it. Einstein said all the data in the world is no use if a person has no insights into how to interpret it. They get fed marketing and politics disguised as science and they lap it up despite obvious problems.
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
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Originally posted by: Vic

Second, we are descended from apes. Not directly, but through common ancestors. Get used it. It's a proven fact.

Your persuading me that some of us are

 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: Butterbean
I have no issue with evolution as a principle but I see no reason to teach that human's are from apes since jillions of fossils are missing when they shouldn't be (democrats being from apes maybe).

rofl. You are dumb beyond belief if you honestly think that's what evolution is.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
Butterbean

jillions of fossils are missing when they shouldn't be

And what special knowledge do you have that supports such an ignorant statement?

It sounds like you have little or no knowledge of such fields as geology and paleontology.
 

extra

Golden Member
Dec 18, 1999
1,947
7
81
MMMmmm, queue intelligent design bashing or religion bashing here and describe those with different viewpoints as ignorant and wrong. Throw in one or two intelligent posts separating the issue of evolution and science from religion. Maybe, MAYBE (rarely) a post that references that there really are facts that actually do contradict evolution, (yet most of the facts do point to evolution)--so science still has figuring out to do either way (get ready to queue up the attacks of how if i don't think all the facts agree with evolution i must not understand the theory, or must be wrong somehow, wheee!). Did I sum up the thread pretty well? (didn't read it).

As for the article. Who cares? Whoopti do. Some school class may have a day of the school year devoted to holes in the theory of evolution and alternatives. Can't have that. Meanwhile, 99% of the students will still learn about evolution and be smart enough to see that it is mostly factually proven and the challenges to the theory will give the new budding scientists ideas for new things to test to figure out and fill in holes in the theory. Are people honestly that worried that if their theory is challenged students will shift in droves to not believe in it? Honestly? HONESTLY?

"I hope he [Jindal] doesn't do anything that would hold back the next generation of Louisiana's doctors."

Oh yes, I'm sure this will be an issue. /sarcasm

People make me laugh.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
extra

ID/ creationism is religion. It does not belong in a science class in public school. Any further clarification necessary?
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
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Originally posted by: extra
MMMmmm, queue intelligent design bashing or religion bashing here and describe those with different viewpoints as ignorant and wrong. Throw in one or two intelligent posts separating the issue of evolution and science from religion. Maybe, MAYBE (rarely) a post that references that there really are facts that actually do contradict evolution, (yet most of the facts do point to evolution)--so science still has figuring out to do either way (get ready to queue up the attacks of how if i don't think all the facts agree with evolution i must not understand the theory, or must be wrong somehow, wheee!). Did I sum up the thread pretty well? (didn't read it).

As for the article. Who cares? Whoopti do. Some school class may have a day of the school year devoted to holes in the theory of evolution and alternatives. Can't have that. Meanwhile, 99% of the students will still learn about evolution and be smart enough to see that it is mostly factually proven and the challenges to the theory will give the new budding scientists ideas for new things to test to figure out and fill in holes in the theory. Are people honestly that worried that if their theory is challenged students will shift in droves to not believe in it? Honestly? HONESTLY?

"I hope he [Jindal] doesn't do anything that would hold back the next generation of Louisiana's doctors."

Oh yes, I'm sure this will be an issue. /sarcasm

People make me laugh.


^^ This

 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,483
2,352
136
Originally posted by: extra
As for the article. Who cares? Whoopti do. Some school class may have a day of the school year devoted to holes in the theory of evolution and alternatives. Can't have that. Meanwhile, 99% of the students will still learn about evolution and be smart enough to see that it is mostly factually proven and the challenges to the theory will give the new budding scientists ideas for new things to test to figure out and fill in holes in the theory. Are people honestly that worried that if their theory is challenged students will shift in droves to not believe in it? Honestly? HONESTLY?

Considering the thread below you SHOULD care.

US drops in education rankings

Children are easy to mold. You fill their heads with wrong ideas while they're young and it will be very hard to get them out when they're older.

 

whylaff

Senior member
Oct 31, 2007
200
0
0
I t will be interesting to see what kind of legal responses this raises, in light of the Kitzmiller v. Dover decision in 2005. The federal court decision was one that ruled ID is a religious view.

In 1987, the Supreme Court visited the creationism issue back in Edwards v. Aguillard, with a Louisiana law that required creationism be taught whenever evolution was taught in public schools. It was found to be unconstitutional. However, it paved the way for what is intelligent design.

When you then consider the fact that a federal court has already ruled in general terms that intelligent design is a religious view, there is little doubt that someone will try to make a case challenging the constitutionality of this law as well.

Previously, they would have looked at the Lemon Test. Many of the current Justices on the court loathe the Lemon Test, which was established in Lemon v. Kurtzman in CJ Burger?s majority opinion as somewhat of a litmus test to determine the constitutionality of these issues under the Establishment Clause.

The Lemon Test has three specific areas that are evaluated:

The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;

The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;

The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.

If any one of the three has been violated, it is deemed unconstitutional.

Lower Courts are not required to use the Lemon Test and Justice O?Connor was the primary force keeping the Lemon Test in use with the Supreme Court. Justice Kennedy would now be the swing vote if this case was decided today.

My personal opinion is that Louisiana has been trying one way or another to accomplish this for decades now, and they simply re-package it every time they face a setback. intelligent design, no matter how bland or vague it?s description or teachings are, has no appropriate place in a public school simply because of the innate lack of understanding regarding the complexities of all religions that would ultimately encompass it?s teachings.

Edit: I just wanted to add, that the term ?Academic Freedom? was something Louisiana relied on heavily the first time around
 

Kerouactivist

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2001
4,665
0
76
Originally posted by: Butterbean
I see no threat in this. Bad science is an epidemic at this time, and there are often political agendas behind it. The global warming stuff is flawed from beginning to end, but it still gets force fed with great hostitly for any disagreement. I have no issue with evolution as a principle but I see no reason to teach that human's are from apes since jillions of fossils are missing when they shouldn't be (democrats being from apes maybe). If people want to allow room for controversies about human origins I could not care less. The UK also passed laws to counter global warming rubbish ala Gore and more power to them. I feel like I am re-living the 1930's and rugenics with all the incredibly shoddy science going around (and psychologists/psychiatrists are some of the most guilty of al). There are weirdos on creation side and weirdos on the evolution side. It's not so bad they keep each other busy imo.

Schools must warn of Gore climate film bias
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...climate-film-bias.html

Prepares for rant about how it's the Neo-Marxist's fault.....