Looking for an affordable 11-12" netbook that can play older games

[PingSpike]

I'm getting a little lost as I'm shopping. Last time I shopped for netbooks I wasn't really impressed with the offerings. The 10" units were $300 and that screen size was a bit small but the resolution was just plain to small. I don't remember there being any 11-12" units for reasonable prices until now. (I've seen that screen size at staples and really liked it) After looking on newegg, I see there are some units from $400-$500 that use that screen size. I really don't want to spend more than $500 tops.

What I'd like to use this unit for is running visual studio when away or floating around the house, web browsing and I'd like the ability to play some games. I'm not planning on playing Crysis or anything, I have a good desktop for most of my stuff anyway. But I like a lot of older games that I'd like to play on this: Starcraft, System Shock series, Dungeon Keeper series, Thief I & II, Return to Castle Wolfenstein (and ET), and a lot of old greats that I missed that are now on Good old Games or Steam. Basically, I don't expect to play anything beyond the early 2000s era.

I figure any of the single core cpus in netbooks should be up to those tasks, but what about video? I've got basically three options from my research:
Ion platform (Nvidia 9400M)
Athlon Neo Platform (ATI 3200)
Intel integrated graphics

Am I correct in assuming I should just stay away from intel graphics? Their stuff is pretty bad. But do people have luck getting old titles to run properly on intel graphics? I have no experience with intel graphics with games. How much worse is the performance? Both nvidia and ATIs DX10 hardware has trouble running early DX games and do not display 16-bit color titles properly. Not to mention myriad other driver issues with old titles. (Dungeon Keeper II just displays a black screen on my 4850, I expect the same on the 3200 at least) Can I expect the same with intel?

What kind of battery life differences am I looking at between the different platforms?

Any recommendations? My brain is starting to hurt from researching the options so I thought I'd just kind of mind dump here.

 

[CurseTheSky]

FWIW, non-intensive, somewhat older games like Warcraft III work fine on my X4500MHD at 1376x768. Intel graphics should have plenty of horsepower for anything older than that, provided it's not a FPS with lots of details (outdoor scenery). I would suggest getting a "real" processor instead of Atom, though, as that plays a roll as well. CULVs are great.

I can't really speak for RtCW / ET, Thief, and the System Shock series. Perhaps you can figure out what the Intel GPUs perform similar to (in terms of older cards) and Google for performance numbers for those games. For example, if the X4500MHD is similar to a 6600 GT (doubtful) you'd have a good place to start.

 

[PingSpike]

Yeah, it was occuring to me that perhaps I am expecting to little from even the crappy intel graphics. I would like to play the old games in native resolution (or their letterboxed equivalent) when possible though.

I'm having a hard time finding any decent reviews comparing the athlon neo platform (single core) direction to the ion platform in games and battery life. I keep finding reviews using the X2 neo, or comparing it to intel graphics.

 

[Hacp]

Intel 4500 should be around 6600GT.Use that as your benchmark.

 

[PingSpike]

Intel 4500 should be around 6600GT.Use that as your benchmark.

Really? That's plenty fast.

 

[Zap]

Intel 4500 should be around 6600GT.Use that as your benchmark.

Right, but the typical Atom netbook doesn't have that level of graphics.

I have a typical Atom netbook and it can run Quake 3 just fine. WolfET is based on the Q3 engine, but enhanced. I remember certain levels (Radar especially, because of the rain) having problems with Intel IGPs from years ago.

OP, what you may want to look into is one of the cheaper Acer Timeline notebooks. They make a cheap version with 11.6" screen, around 3.2 pounds, with a single core CULV CPU that runs circles around the Atom, with Intel 4500 IGP... and I've seen them in the $400-450 range.

You also may want to do some research to see how well Visual Studio runs on an Atom if you are still considering a netbook. I do recall sluggish performance (but still works fine) on slower systems with Visual Studio.

 

[hkklife]

I previously had an Asus EEE PC 1000HE. Even with a heavily overclocked N280 CPU & 2GB RAM upgrade, the ancient GMA950 made gaming pretty lousy. I did manage to play a few FPS titles on it, however: Return to Castle Wolfenstein (the one from '01) ran great at 800x600 as did Quake 3 as mentioned above. I never tried Enemy Territory but I imagine it'd be ok. Half-Life 1 ran very nicely as well. I think the newest titles I played on it were Max Payne 2 and Unreal Tournament 2003 (and that was pretty choppy). The vast majority of netbooks still have 1024x600 panels so that right there is going to make gaming uncomfortable. 800x600 "stretched" is probably your safest bet on one of those machines.

I recently replaced a variant of what Zap is talking about. My new CULV machine is an Acer Aspire 1810T with a Core 2 Duo SU7300 CULV CPU and Intel X4500MHD IGP. Acer also offers cheaper versions with Pentium cual-core, Celeron dual-cores, and Celeron single-cores. The original SU3500 Core 2 Solo version Zap mentioned has been discontinued. In comparison to my previous EEE PC, the Intel 4500M IGP is a bit more capable but still quite slow by modern gaming standards. The GMA 950 couldn't run anything new. The 4500 CAN run most newer titles if you dial everything way down but it's still very slow. It's great on casual PopCap-style games, Civilization 4, Lumines, Warcraft III, etc.

It CAN do some FPs titles, however: I recently played through most of Portal at 800x600 on a trip and everything set to low. Older titles such as Counter-Strike:Source, Doom 3, FlatOut 2, Painkiller, and UT 2004 are quite playable. Basically, anything older than Quake 4 will run quite well on the 4500MHD.

I wouldn't compare the 4500M to a 660GT however...maybe something like a GeForce 6200 or 7300LE or so? I love the CULV platform due to the CPU power & battery life, but it would NOT be my first choice as a mobile gaming unit. I use it as a work machine that can do some very light gaming in a pinch. Let me put it this way: it can satisfy my light gaming itch well enough when traveling, whereas an Atom machine couldn't do it at all.

Honestly, If I were in your shoes, I'd skip all of the single-core Atom + ION machines as they are too CPU-limited. I'd probably head for one of the AMD-based 11.6 or 12" machines as they have a solid IGP alongside a decent CPU and are a few bucks cheaper than the Intel alternatives. *BUT* the AMD Athlon Neo/Neo X2 do tend to run hot and only offer 3-5 hours of battery life on most machines. Another good option would be the Asus EEE PC 1201N. It's got a dual-core Atom N330 CPU and ION graphics. It's still going to be CPU-bound but far less so than the single core Atom N270/280. You cannot easily replace the HDD, so keep that in mind, as well as the N330 is primarily a desktop.nettop CPU so it's not going to get the same battery life as a regular Atom netbook will. You can get the 1201N for about the same price as a solid Intel CULV or AMD machine ($500ish).

Basically, you've got 2 options: An ION-based Atom machine where the CPU will be your weakest link.

 

[CurseTheSky]

Right, but the typical Atom netbook doesn't have that level of graphics.

I have a typical Atom netbook and it can run Quake 3 just fine. WolfET is based on the Q3 engine, but enhanced. I remember certain levels (Radar especially, because of the rain) having problems with Intel IGPs from years ago.

OP, what you may want to look into is one of the cheaper Acer Timeline notebooks. They make a cheap version with 11.6" screen, around 3.2 pounds, with a single core CULV CPU that runs circles around the Atom, with Intel 4500 IGP... and I've seen them in the $400-450 range.

You also may want to do some research to see how well Visual Studio runs on an Atom if you are still considering a netbook. I do recall sluggish performance (but still works fine) on slower systems with Visual Studio.

Agreed. While I like the build quality that comes with some higher-end netbooks (the 1000HA or whatever's screen gets a lot of praise), I generally don't recommend them for anything other than basic Internet and portable use. After setting up my girlfriend's son's Dell Mini 10 for basic games like Plants Vs. Zombies and seeing it choke on some levels, I just can't recommend it to anyone other than the niche they fit in.

CULVs are the way to go. Especially with the Timeline series, you can find them decently cheap and their performance is so much better. Best of all, if in a year the performance seems a bit lacking, you can always tinker around and see about overclocking the processor. Essentially it's just an undervolted / underclocked Core 2 Duo or Pentium.

 

[Skott]

If you go onto youtube and do a search like '4500hmd Gaming' you'll see a long list of videos of what games people are able to play on laptop with 4500hmd graphics. It'll surprise you what games people can play. It did me.

 

[taltamir]

netbook is a gimmicky name for a small laptop.
Typically it means having an intel atom and 10inch screen, but there are 15 inch screen intel atom machines, there are "netbooks" that run VIA or AMD chips, and even some that run intel CULV chips (core2 solo, etc) at 10 inch form factor.

Generally speaking though, netbook is 10 inches. 11-12 inches is just a very small laptop. (which, can't be used on your lap due to heat )

So, yea... Also NET-book is called that way because its ONLY for surfing the net (hence the net part), being too slow for ANYTHING other than that.

Although, supposedly you can play WOW using an ion based atom system at absolute lowest settings. But if you want video games you need

 

[maniac5999]

If you go onto youtube and do a search like '4500hmd Gaming' you'll see a long list of videos of what games people are able to play on laptop with 4500hmd graphics. It'll surprise you what games people can play. It did me.

True, but it's still going to be embarassed by an Ion or 3200HD. To be honest, It's always wondered why nobody's ever paired a CULV and an ION. That would be a pretty nice combo, and I'd jump on it right away, but since it doesn't look like it's going to happen, I'm going to wait for AMD's new ultrathin this summer. the shrink to 45nm should help the heat/battery life issues, and the IGP may have double the power of the 3200.

 

[PingSpike]

From my understanding, the reason the CULV ION combo is not available is because intel has a pricing structure such that it isn't practical to make one. This is so intel doesn't have to compete directly.

Yeah, the line between what is and isn't a netbook is blurred...and getting blurrier. Its semantics anyway. But all the shit I want is under the "netbook" section of newegg search.

I'm leaning towards the CULV platform now. While the video seems to lack the power of the amd neo 3200 or atom + ion platforms, it isn't as bad as I thought. And considering all the trouble I've had with nvidia and ati with older games I might just settle for being able to run them without major graphic issues...performance secondary.

I'm unsure what the cost to battery life going to the lower end dual core celeron is though?

 

[hkklife]

The BEST bang for the buck CULV machine was the $399.99 Acer Aspire 1410T that came out back when Win 7 launched. It had a Celeron SU2300 dual-core CPU (only 100Mhz slower with less cache than the pricier Pentium SU4100 or Core 2 Duo SU7300 CPUs), 2GB DDR2, 160GB HDD, N wireless, HDMI output & Win 7 Home Premium. They sold out everywhere and people were price gouging like crazy. Acer quickly realized they weren't making enough on these machines, so they quickly dropped that SKU and replaced it with a new $399 machine with the much slower single core Celeron M 743.

The SU2300 dual core has since reappeared as a $450 SKU (AS1410-2920) with a 250gb HDD which is still a helluva good deal if you ask me compared to what Lenovo, Dell, Toshiba etc are charging. All of these Acers have 6-cell batteries but the 1410-series models have lower capacity batteries. Most of the Acer models have comparable Gateway versions that have slightly better build quality and better aesthetics (though in some cases the Acer versions are a bit cheaper and/or have slightly better specs), so make sure you cross-shop the Acer & GW sister brands.

I can routinely get 6 hours + out of my Acer 1810T even with brightness at a reasonable level and wi-fi on. When traveling I dimmed the screen, had very minimal wireless usage and kept it on power saving mode and made it for about 8 hours (and I figure having a 7200rpm HDD installed cut my total runtime down by ~20 mins or so).

I only miss two things from my EEE PC with this Acer: The EEE had a very study screen (Acer's hinges are rather weak & floppy) and the EEE had a far superior "chiclet" island style keyboard. Everything else (including the build quality of the rest of the unit) is far superior on the CULV Acer. In fact, it's probably my favorite all-time portable PC, especially after I got rid of all of the bloatware from the factory image.

 

[Zap]

Although, supposedly you can play WOW using an ion based atom system at absolute lowest settings.

Actually my MSI Wind can play WoW at lowest settings at around 25FPS with the CPU overclocked.

Speaking of overclocked, I tried overclocking the GPU and overclocking the CPU...

Overclocking the CPU made the most performance difference in WoW.

THAT... is how CPU limited the single core Atom is.

 

[PingSpike]

Do intel 4500MHD cards have fixed aspect ratio scaling options in the driver? I mean, if you have a game that is 4:3 can you get it to display with black bars on the sides on the CULV units?

 

[Zap]

Don't know about the 4500, but the one in the MSI Wind does. I play Starcraft on it with black bars on the side.

One thing it did NOT have was the ability to rotate the display. I found some freeware software to allow me to do that. Great for e-book reading!

 

[Decembermouse]

True, but it's still going to be embarassed by an Ion or 3200HD. To be honest, It's always wondered why nobody's ever paired a CULV and an ION. That would be a pretty nice combo, and I'd jump on it right away, but since it doesn't look like it's going to happen, I'm going to wait for AMD's new ultrathin this summer. the shrink to 45nm should help the heat/battery life issues, and the IGP may have double the power of the 3200.

My thoughts exactly. I've had many terrible experiences with Intel graphics. Very infrequent driver updates, poor implementation of DirectX features, no hardware lighting transform (maybe the 4500MHD finally has it, Idk) which Nvidia has had since the 6100 days. And performance, even if you see that games will play on it... I'm not optimistic. Sometimes, a computer with an Intel IGP will start out ok with games. But most all the time, this soon leads to stuttering and framerates that don't even give you the impression that movement is happening. It's like you're watching a movie and they're only showing you every 50th frame or something... very jittery. Not sure why this happens, and it doesn't happen consistently even on the same laptop, OS, driver, or game. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not. I've seen a bunch of this... again, not really sure why.

Their performance can be good, but there's no telling whether it'll happen on your laptop at all, and if so, how much stuttering you'll get... it freaks me out. I don't think they are reliable. It's safe to say Intel IGP's will never be powering my monitors. Not until some big changes are made, at least.

They still don't have programmable shaders capable of GPGPU even if they can do DirectX 10.0 either...

If you're getting one today, I'd get an Ion machine, although their Atom processors are laughable. Otherwise go with AMD's Neo platform if you want a better CPU than the Atom. Which I would. Its performance is comparable to a Pentium M from... what year was that? 2003? Also, the Atom is an in-order architecture. The last of which was the Pentium from 1993. The Atom is very slow. Personally, like maniac5999, I am waiting for AMD's next-gen ultrathins.