Looking at making an upgrade

[strep3241]

My current system is in my signature with the only difference being the ssd is an intel 128gb and running windows 10. To save money, would like to reuse the case, PSU and maybe SSD. I do mostly gaming with it and don't need tons of storage, have a standard 500gb HDD for storage. Budget is around 1k USD but not set in stone, of course the less the better but can go over if would be worth it. I usually build myself but not ruling out a prebuilt at all. Don't plan on upgrading again for several years. I don't plan on doing any overclocking.

Seen some desktops on newegg with 7th generation i7 cpus from anywhere between $800 and $1400.

Now I have been out of the computer world for a while, not really kept up on what is what. Now I was looking at some prebuilts on newegg.com and seen something called optane memory. I looked up a little info on this and it seems supposed to be much faster. Is this something that is brand new and not been out for very long? Is it worth even thinking about? I would like to have at least 8gb's of ram, more would be better.

If I was to go a prebuilt, are there certain brands to stay away from? Maybe this has changed now but in the past, I always read that the PSU's that came with prebuilts was not that good and prebuilts like Dell used propitiatory parts(spelled right?). Maybe this is not the case with all prebuilts, idk.

Don't need a monitor, keyboard or mouse.

 

[whm1974]

Your rig looks fairly old, so you want to build one completely from scratch, aside from the display and KBM. The bad news for you is that graphic cards are rather high right now due to the mining craze. So you may end up settling for a lesser GPU then you otherwise would.

 

[strep3241]

Your rig looks fairly old, so you want to build one completely from scratch, aside from the display and KBM. The bad news for you is that graphic cards are rather high right now due to the mining craze. So you may end up settling for a lesser GPU then you otherwise would.

Out of curiosity, what would be wrong with reusing the case I have now?

Right now, I am kind of leaning towards a prebuilt but still not decided yet. Been looking on places like newegg and amazon and found a few that I am interested in. Here is one from amazon: https://www.amazon.com/CYBERPOWERPC...92011,p_n_feature_five_browse-bin:13580790011 Now this one has liquid cooling and is something I have never messed with before. Is there any upkeep to liquid cooling systems? Anyone see any issues with this desktop? With a prebuilt, would I have any issues swapping out parts in the future?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Don't get a 7700K these days, unless you are a competitive (actually ranked or something) FPS gamer, and own or plan to own a 120/144Hz refresh monitor, and play at 1080P (or lower).

Otherwise, you are MUCH better off with an AMD Ryzen, for general-type tasks, including gaming (but at 1080P may be 5-10% slower than 7700K). Go for a 1600X or 1700X.

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/mini-review-cyberpowerpc-gamer-ultra-desktop.2511923/

 

[24601]

List the level of gaming you want to do, (preferably which games specifically).

List your monitor resolution.

Tell us your FPS target for minimum frame rate, as well as average frame rate going forwards.

Are you ok with not running Ultra settings on everything? etc. etc.

===========================================================================

With a 1k budget and given what you already have, you can easily swing a 7700k + motherboard + ddr4 + Used 980 Ti

You can also wait for coffee lake (The Intel mainstream 6 core i7 that is coming out in Q4-ish 2017).

 

[strep3241]

Don't get a 7700K these days, unless you are a competitive (actually ranked or something) FPS gamer, and own or plan to own a 120/144Hz refresh monitor, and play at 1080P (or lower).

Otherwise, you are MUCH better off with an AMD Ryzen, for general-type tasks, including gaming (but at 1080P may be 5-10% slower than 7700K). Go for a 1600X or 1700X.

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/mini-review-cyberpowerpc-gamer-ultra-desktop.2511923/

Ok didn't realize the AMD ryzen was an eight core vs quad core for the i7 7700. So why wouldn't the ryzen peform better at 1080p since it has 8 cores? Is it because of the speed it is running at, 3.4ghz for the ryzen 1700x and 4.2ghz for the 7700k? How much can the ryzen be overclocked too safely?

List the level of gaming you want to do, (preferably which games specifically).

List your monitor resolution.

Tell us your FPS target for minimum frame rate, as well as average frame rate going forwards.

Are you ok with not running Ultra settings on everything? etc. etc.

===========================================================================

With a 1k budget and given what you already have, you can easily swing a 7700k + motherboard + ddr4 + Used 980 Ti

You can also wait for coffee lake (The Intel mainstream 6 core i7 that is coming out in Q4-ish 2017).

I would like to get back into the battlefield series games, maybe try out the new battlefield 1 and similar fps games.

I am running a 24" asus vh242h at 1920x1080 resolution.

The higher the fps and settings the better but also would rather have smooth gameplay rather than having it on highest settings possible and it be choppy.

I am working on putting together a complete build minus windows.

For the ram, is it better to go with 2 sticks of 8gb or 1 stick of 16gb?

Here is a build I put together, let me know what you think.

CPU: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113429 $339.99

MOBO: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813144030 114.99

RAM: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233911 119.99

GPU: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487265 439.99

PSU: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139200 64.99

SSD: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAAEE3XS6865 142.01

CASE: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811854018 89.99

Total: 1371.90 plus shipping and taxes if any.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The CPU (1700X) is a good choice. Mobo is also good.

RAM is OK, but is only 2400 speed rating. Try to shoot for 3200 if you can, but Ryzen can be picky with RAM above 2400, so it's kind of hit or miss. Ask in the Ryzen Builder's Thread in the CPU forum, which RAM to get. GSKill Ripjaws V is often cited, as is some of the Corsair LPX 3200 or 3000. Yeah, it's more money, and if you can't afford to drop another $60 on RAM, I can understand. The thing is, on Ryzen, their inter-core IF is based on the DRAM clock speed, so putting in faster DRAM, also speeds up the CPU cores' communications, which raised overall performance, above and beyond simply having faster DRAM.

That being said, I didn't do my homework, and bought a "cheap" 3000 kit (Team Vulcan DDR4-3000 16-18-18-38 1.350V), and I couldn't get it stable above 2667 for booting. Otherwise, it would repeatedly beep at me and not POST.

DONT get that SSD, it's a SATA II model, and it will be slower than modern SSDs. Granted, it's also based on an older lithography platform, which means it probably will outlive a modern drive, but still, it's way, way, overpriced. Newegg has the same drive in their ebay store for $65, and I consider that to be overpriced.

Just get a 250/256/275GB Mushkin MLC, Adata 3D TLC, or Crucial MX300 drive. Should be half the price of the one you listed, which is gouging the price since they are discontinued.

 

[strep3241]

On the SSD, 128gb is more than enough since I don't use it for storage. That being said and I hope this isn't a dumb question but is it better to have a smaller drive and have less empty space or a bigger drive and more empty space? Not sure if that would effect the performance or reliability in anyway.

Here are a few more choices I have picked out. And noticed I forgot to select a CPU cooler in my original list but there is only one listed for the 1700x, well at least on newegg and that is another $120.

CPU Cooler: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4UF53D6676

SSD: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226853

RAM: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231941

On any type of component, are there any brands I should stay away from?

I am going to try and put together an intel build and see how it compares price wise to the amd build.

Something I noticed when looking at intel motherboards is most only support memory speeds of 2400mhz. So does that mean if I go with an lga1151 socket, I can't get memory higher than 2400mhz?

 

[daveybrat]

Even with an SSD you're better off with a larger SSD and more free space than a smaller with hardly any space left. They will start to slow down once you fill them up.

 

[strep3241]

Here is my intel build

CPU: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117726 339.99

CPU Cooler: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4UF2DZ6565 34.99

MOBO: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157733 59.99

RAM: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233911 119.99
Unless I am missing something, if I go with intel LGA1151 socket, 2400mhz ram speed is the highest I can go unless I spend a fortune on a motherboard that supports 3200.

GPU: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487265 439.99

CASE: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811854018 89.99

PSU: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139200 64.99

SSD: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226853 87.99

Total for that is $1237.92 plus cost of shipping. I am kind of leaning towards the AMD build because it has 8 cores instead of 4 and can support higher ram speed. This intel build is actually a little cheaper than the AMD build but am I getting less performance because of the ram speed? After doing a little searching about ryzen vs skylake, seems all of them say intel performs better even though it has 4 cores instead of 8 cores. Still not ruling out buying a prebuilt like the one I posted in my previous post. But I seem to have trouble finding out what some of the specs are, like what type of motherboard, ram it has.

And on prebuilts, do they generally use cheaper parts like the PSU, motherboard and ram? And is it possible to switch out parts like the PSU?

 

[daveybrat]

Ughhh.....Go with the Ryzen IMO. And IF you go with the Intel build, change that to decent motherboard. I've used that ASRock board and it's great for a KabyLake Pentium or i3 cpu, but way too weak for a 7700K.

 

[daveybrat]

Also, do you have a Microcenter nearby?

 

[daveybrat]

Here's what i would go with for the Ryzen build, i found you a great combo price on Newegg. It has the same Cpu, Motherboard, and faster Corsair ram for even cheaper:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.3517028

With the combo pricing, you're essentially getting the Corsair Vengeance 3000Mhz ram for $107.99!! Ryzen loves fast ram.

 

[strep3241]

No I don't have a microcenter nearby. The only computer store I have close is a BestBuy. And don't have to buy from newegg, just getting an idea for parts. Would like to buy everything from one place to save on the shipping.

Also, someone here in the AMD ryzen build thread mentioned getting ram with a latency of 14 because it has the samsung b-die chip. He said they are highly compatible with ryzen systems.

 

[daveybrat]

The ram in the combo i linked has been verified as highly compatible with the Ryzen platform. And you won't find a Cas latency of 14 on high speed ram, only very low speed ram.

 

[strep3241]

What is the reason for going with AMD over the intel build? I know it has 8 cores vs the 4 cores on the i7 but I am been doing a little research and every place said the 7700k performed better in gaming which is what I will be doing. Is it because of the monitor I currently have?

With both CPU's costing the same amount, why pick one over the other?

 

[24601]

What is the reason for going with AMD over the intel build? I know it has 8 cores vs the 4 cores on the i7 but I am been doing a little research and every place said the 7700k performed better in gaming which is what I will be doing. Is it because of the monitor I currently have?

With both CPU's costing the same amount, why pick one over the other?

If the primary use case of your PC is PC Gaming, then there is exactly zero reason to ever get Ryzen, especially for a budget as large as 800 - 1400 USD.

7700k is currently the best Gaming CPU until Coffee Lake comes out (rumored to come out by Q4 2017). Coffee Lake is essentially a 6 core 7700k that clocks higher.

The Noctua NH-D14 in your sig (if you still have it) would be a better choice for heatsink/fan than buying any of the ones your listed.

You should also not use any DDR4 slower than DDR4 3200, as all current gen platforms have massive gains with faster dram speeds.

I would also suggest buying 2x 16 gB sticks of ram, as the 7700k has a dual channel memory controller, and runs ram at a lower rating than is stated on the ram sticks if you use more than 1 dimm per channel (aka running 4x sticks of ram).

This way you won't be screwed in the future when you need to upgrade your ram like you would if you had 2x 8 gB sticks of ram.

Also where did you hear that z270 doesn't support any higher ram speed than 2400?

z270 supports higher than DDR4-4300 ram, and is mostly limited to the speed of ram that dram manufacturers have at the moment, as opposed to the integrated memory controller on the 7700k.

The platform with worse memory speed support is Ryzen, and you need ram sticks specifically binned for Ryzen CPUs exclusively to get even to DDR4-3200.

The only reason why people are recommending Ryzen for anything gaming over 7700k anywhere on the internet is due to AMD running a massive viral marketing campaign for at least the past 3 years about Ryzen.

I don't really understand why you are buying a new case, psu, hsf when the ones listed in your sig seem to be perfectly adequate.

Windows 10 is also legitimately a free upgrade as long as you have a windows 7 key as you listed in your sig.

 

[R0H1T]

What is the reason for going with AMD over the intel build? I know it has 8 cores vs the 4 cores on the i7 but I am been doing a little research and every place said the 7700k performed better in gaming which is what I will be doing. Is it because of the monitor I currently have?

With both CPU's costing the same amount, why pick one over the other?

I guess that depends on how long you want to keep the build, also assuming that you won;t upgrade it during that time. A six or eight core Ryzen will last you a good five years, quad cores are getting obsolete - slowly but surely. A 1600(x) is probably the best gaming chip in it's price range, the 1700(x) a close second & with resolutions going up more cores is always welcome. Remember you;ll need more GPU grunt down the line but you don;t have to upgrade the CPU as well, that's why people generally tend to get a CPU that lasts them a while longer, not to mention programs can use more cores better now.

The one with more cores would be my pick, except in the tiniest of fringe case where clock speed is essential for the program(s) you run.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The only reason why people are recommending Ryzen for anything gaming over 7700k anywhere on the internet is due to AMD running a massive viral marketing campaign for at least the past 3 years about Ryzen.

Not quite. In fact, I said that if OP is a "competitive" gamer, then the 7700K is 5-10% faster at 1080P, if you need "maximum FPS". Most people don't need FPS that exceeds their monitor's refresh rate, which for "ordinary" (non-"Gaming" monitors) is still 60Hz. Ryzen gives plenty fine framerates, even in AAA titles. In fact, in a few thread-heavy titles, a 1600X will exceed the performance of a 7700K. Though, that is rare today, but becoming more common in the future.

But in nearly every other benchmark that is multi-threaded, Archiving, Content Creation (3D Rendering, Video Editing, etc.), Ryzen just completely mops the floor with a 7700K. It's no contest. And Ryzen 5 1600 or 1600X cheaper than a 7700K, and a 1700 / 1700X is around a similar price.

8 cores with SMT is a no-brainer for general usage, versus 4 cores with SMT. Except in corner cases like 1080P competitive gaming. And even that might change, once more games add optimizations strictly for Ryzen (which major titles ARE doing).

 

[strep3241]

If the primary use case of your PC is PC Gaming, then there is exactly zero reason to ever get Ryzen, especially for a budget as large as 800 - 1400 USD.

7700k is currently the best Gaming CPU until Coffee Lake comes out (rumored to come out by Q4 2017). Coffee Lake is essentially a 6 core 7700k that clocks higher.

The Noctua NH-D14 in your sig (if you still have it) would be a better choice for heatsink/fan than buying any of the ones your listed.

You should also not use any DDR4 slower than DDR4 3200, as all current gen platforms have massive gains with faster dram speeds.

I would also suggest buying 2x 16 gB sticks of ram, as the 7700k has a dual channel memory controller, and runs ram at a lower rating than is stated on the ram sticks if you use more than 1 dimm per channel (aka running 4x sticks of ram).

This way you won't be screwed in the future when you need to upgrade your ram like you would if you had 2x 8 gB sticks of ram.

Also where did you hear that z270 doesn't support any higher ram speed than 2400?

z270 supports higher than DDR4-4300 ram, and is mostly limited to the speed of ram that dram manufacturers have at the moment, as opposed to the integrated memory controller on the 7700k.

The platform with worse memory speed support is Ryzen, and you need ram sticks specifically binned for Ryzen CPUs exclusively to get even to DDR4-3200.

The only reason why people are recommending Ryzen for anything gaming over 7700k anywhere on the internet is due to AMD running a massive viral marketing campaign for at least the past 3 years about Ryzen.

I don't really understand why you are buying a new case, psu, hsf when the ones listed in your sig seem to be perfectly adequate.

Windows 10 is also legitimately a free upgrade as long as you have a windows 7 key as you listed in your sig.

I can use my NH-D14 on a 7700k? I thought cpu coolers were socket specific.

I was wrong about intel motherboards not supporting anything above 2400mhz. I was looking at the cheaper priced boards and they did not go above 2400mhz.

I don't really plan on upgrading anything for at least a few years. Do I really need 32gb's of ram? I figured 16gb's would be enough for me. I realize down the road, maybe I wish I had more ram but then I could just upgrade if I decided too.

I thought about reusing some of the parts I have but think I would like to keep that intact to use as secondary computer.

I am using Windows 10 on my current system, forgot to update my sig. But don't worry about that for this build, I know someone where I can get windows a little cheaper.

Ty all for the info so far. On the AMD Ryzen 1700x, how high could I safely overclock that with an air cooler?

 

[24601]

I can use my NH-D14 on a 7700k? I thought cpu coolers were socket specific.

I was wrong about intel motherboards not supporting anything above 2400mhz. I was looking at the cheaper priced boards and they did not go above 2400mhz.

I don't really plan on upgrading anything for at least a few years. Do I really need 32gb's of ram? I figured 16gb's would be enough for me. I realize down the road, maybe I wish I had more ram but then I could just upgrade if I decided too.

I thought about reusing some of the parts I have but think I would like to keep that intact to use as secondary computer.

I am using Windows 10 on my current system, forgot to update my sig. But don't worry about that for this build, I know someone where I can get windows a little cheaper.

Ty all for the info so far. On the AMD Ryzen 1700x, how high could I safely overclock that with an air cooler?

I can use my NH-D14 on a 7700k? I thought cpu coolers were socket specific.

http://noctua.at/en/nh-d14/specification

I don't really plan on upgrading anything for at least a few years. Do I really need 32gb's of ram? I figured 16gb's would be enough for me. I realize down the road, maybe I wish I had more ram but then I could just upgrade if I decided too.

I guess you could go with 8 + 8 to start with, and if you do not know exactly how much you will need going forwards, i cannot really give you any real recommendations here. Simply giving my experience with how annoying it is to transition from not maximum reasonable dimm size to maximum reasonable dimm size later.

I thought about reusing some of the parts I have but think I would like to keep that intact to use as secondary computer.

Secondary computer in this case I would assume would be a less powerful system. And therefor doesn't really need the high end parts that you have listed already in your current desktop.
You don't really need that 850W PSU, Full Tower Case, or NH-D14 HSF for a non-overclocked i7 920 secondary system etc. etc.

Ty all for the info so far. On the AMD Ryzen 1700x, how high could I safely overclock that with an air cooler?

Ryzen is hard-capped to 4 Ghz due to a confluence of design and process reasons. If you don't want to do liquid nitrogen or liquid helium on it, 4 ghz is all you're going to get with a 100% stable system.

========================================================================

It should be noted that if you want to go the 7700k route I highly suggest you read up on de-lidding tools and how to delid the 7700k.

A delided 7700k with the thermal paste between the integrated heatsink and the CPU silicon die replaced with one of the liquid metal compounds will lower the temperature of your CPU substantially as well as raise your realistic 100% stability overclock.

Alternatively you can contract a service to do so for you

https://siliconlottery.com/collections/all/products/delid

https://siliconlottery.com/collections/all/i7-7700k?sort_by=price-ascending

 

[strep3241]

About the NH-D14, even though I bought that 3 or 4 years ago or maybe more, I can still use it on the lga1151 platform? Would I need any adapters to do that?

If I did get a 770k, not sure I would want to delid it. I would be worried about messing it up. I know they have some tools that can do it and have watched some videos about it and doesn't look all that bad. Just not sure I would want to risk it. I am guessing one can easily mess the cpu up if they did it wrong even with a tool.

So I guess it all comes down to me making up my mind. This is part of my problem, I have a hard time deciding. No matter what I decide, I will be getting a really nice system. I am still kind of leaning towards the AMD Ryzen build just to be more future proof if there is such a thing. But another part of me likes the fact that the 7700k runs at a higher clock speed and can be overclocked higher. Although not sure how much overclocking I would be doing. For sure would not push the limits of it. Always been an intel fan myself and while the 7700k does seem to perform better for what I will be doing, at least at this moment, as time goes by, more and more games will be utilizing more cores better.

Now I don't plan on upgrading the main components like the cpu for few years or more. But if I did decide to upgrade my cpu, would I be able to upgrade to a newer cpu without having to change the motherboard?

VirtualLarry, what do you mean my most people don't need FPS that exceeds the monitors refresh rate?

I really appreciate all the help so far.

 

[VirtualLarry]

VirtualLarry, what do you mean my most people don't need FPS that exceeds the monitors refresh rate?

Because it's wasted performance.

(This is part of the whole idea behind "radeon chill" feature.)

If you run with vsync on, you don't see any of the excess frames displayed, and if you have vsync off, you get tearing, so you're only seeing partial fragments of those excess frames anyways.

The only way it makes sense, is with a high-refresh-rate monitor, with freesync or G-sync.

 

[24601]

About the NH-D14, even though I bought that 3 or 4 years ago or maybe more, I can still use it on the lga1151 platform? Would I need any adapters to do that?

If I did get a 770k, not sure I would want to delid it. I would be worried about messing it up. I know they have some tools that can do it and have watched some videos about it and doesn't look all that bad. Just not sure I would want to risk it. I am guessing one can easily mess the cpu up if they did it wrong even with a tool.

So I guess it all comes down to me making up my mind. This is part of my problem, I have a hard time deciding. No matter what I decide, I will be getting a really nice system. I am still kind of leaning towards the AMD Ryzen build just to be more future proof if there is such a thing. But another part of me likes the fact that the 7700k runs at a higher clock speed and can be overclocked higher. Although not sure how much overclocking I would be doing. For sure would not push the limits of it. Always been an intel fan myself and while the 7700k does seem to perform better for what I will be doing, at least at this moment, as time goes by, more and more games will be utilizing more cores better.

Now I don't plan on upgrading the main components like the cpu for few years or more. But if I did decide to upgrade my cpu, would I be able to upgrade to a newer cpu without having to change the motherboard?

VirtualLarry, what do you mean my most people don't need FPS that exceeds the monitors refresh rate?

I really appreciate all the help so far.

Simply be indecisive all the way up to the release of Coffeelake and get the 6c/12t 8700k and you will be 100% future proof.

VirtualLarry, what do you mean my most people don't need FPS that exceeds the monitors refresh rate?

Lol, you are talking to a person who personally buys seemingly 20+ cheapest CPU for no discernible reason due to what can only be described as a mental condition.
Look up him and waltchan's posts on the forums for a good laugh.

If he was true to himself he would recommend you a G4560, but it seems the Ryzen bug has bit him hard .

Here's a hint, if Ryzen never came out, certain people would still be recommending FX 8350 and it's cousins.

 

[R0H1T]

Simply be indecisive all the way up to the release of Coffeelake and get the 6c/12t 8700k and you will be 100% future proof.

VirtualLarry, what do you mean my most people don't need FPS that exceeds the monitors refresh rate?

Lol, you are talking to a person who personally buys seemingly 20+ cheapest CPU for no discernible reason due to what can only be described as a mental condition.
Look up him and waltchan's posts on the forums for a good laugh.

If he was true to himself he would recommend you a G4560, but it seems the Ryzen bug has bit him hard .

In an alternate universe where the first lady would also be doing her job, along with the POTUS, such posts would probably get you banned on any forum! As for some of your theories, they seem equally ludicrous ~

7700k is currently the best Gaming CPU until Coffee Lake comes out (rumored to come out by Q4 2017). Coffee Lake is essentially a 6 core 7700k that clocks higher.

So the 7700k is the best gaming CPU atm, agreed totally, but then the 6 core CFL would be the same, how? Will the CFL clock higher on all 6 cores, OCed or stock? What about temps or power consumption, or did you just count the number of cores, apparently 6 or 8 isn;t enough for Ryzen, & then apply some random math to say that it'd be just as good? Do games simply switch on their 6 core GOD mode that makes the CFL an instant hit?