Lol, Whats with this guy?

LtPage1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2004
6,311
2
0
this isnt the place to make fun of mac-bashers. try insidemacgames for that. get used to bad press from the ignorant masses- the mac has been getting it for years, its nothing new.
 

hopejr

Senior member
Nov 8, 2004
841
0
0
This guy has a point, but it's not as big as he's making it. When I found out that the Mac Mini is a BYO DKM, I was a bit disappointed, but then I remembered that here in Australia, when you go to the mall to buy a HP or Compaq, the price on them doesn't include the monitor. Then you have to pay an extra $300 AU or more for the monitors, which aren't even guaranteed to work with the computer (had that experience, that's the main reason I hate HP/Compaq). So the Mac mini doesn't look so bad anymore.
 

imported_Lucifer

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2004
5,139
1
0
I wish the mini did come with a keyboard at least. Then it would have the 2 USB ports on the keyboard and the 2 on the Mac itself.
 

rpl318

Senior member
Aug 29, 2004
253
0
0
I think he exaggerates his points way too much. He makes it seem as though all potential buyers of this product are idiots who don't do any research before they make a purchase. It's pretty obvious that this product was made to attract those with existing PC's who are interested in Macs but never wanted to shell out the extra cash to try one. A simple KVM will solve most (if not all) of the issues he mentioned.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Wow, I didn't know it was just a box. I assumed at that price it came with monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Dells can be cheaper and come with all that...
 

Baked

Lifer
Dec 28, 2004
36,052
17
81
Who cares about the lack of KB, mouse, and monitor, has a "slow" G4 CPU and comes w/ only 256MB RAM that can't properly run Mac OSX? The thing's smaller than my external HD! And it's only $499! It's a burn your pants off hot deal!
 

halfadder

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2004
1,190
0
0
I have some comments about all of this... First of all, my background is a PC user for the past 12 years, but I used Macs in college and bought my first Mac, a PowerBook, a year ago. My main machine is still my 3.0 GHz P4 PC, and my next machine will be another PC, but I love my PowerBook and ordered a Mac Mini the day it came out.

The Mac Mini is a very small form factor comptuer. The closest machine in size is the Nanode, a PC based on the VIA Epia-N Nano-ITX board which was announced a year ago and still isn't yet shipping. When the Nanode finally ships it will still only have a 1 GHz Via processor and will be on par with a 500 MHz G4. And yet will still cost more than the Mac Mini. And will still be 65% larger than the Mac Mini. This can be said for almost all of the Nano-ITX and Mini-ITX PCs. There are some faster models, but they're even more expensive. See for yourself at http://www.logicsupply.com and http://froogle.google.com

The whole idea behind the Mac Mini is "BYOKVM". Bring your own kyeboard, video/monitor, and mouse. It's a machine for those of us that want to try a desktop Mac without buying a full blown PowerMac G5 tower or without having to buy a Mac with a built-in monitor (eMac, iMac, PowerBook, iBook). I'm sure Apple could have easily put the Mini into a larger box and included a mouse, keyboard, and maybe some other accessories, maybe even have an optional matching monitor. They probably could have even done it at a nice bundle price. But that's not the point. At least that's not the point right at this time. After pricing Mini-ITX systems, I think the Mac Mini is priced just right at $500. That's why I ordered one.

Because the Mac Mini is based on the eMac's motherboard, it has some of the lowest specs of any current Mac. The G4 is an old CPU, but at 1.25 GHz it still has plenty of life. The Radeon 9200 is not a gaming beast, but it can run most of the current Mac games and it sure beats having some sort of integrated Intel or VIA chipset graphics.

256 MB of memory is the only thing I don't like about it. That is only enough RAM to boot into Mac OS X and run only a web browser and maybe one or two more small applications. Or you can run iMovie or iDVD by themselves to edit and burn your home videos. I like to multitask though. RAM is cheap and the Mac Mini is easy to open and Apple generally honors the warranty as long as you don't break anything, so I will be upgrading my Mac Mini when it arrives. If I could cut a window into the side of my PC, I'm sure I can swap out a DIMM.
 

mdaniel73

Junior Member
Jan 15, 2005
23
0
0
Is a 20" LCD really the cheapest display one sale at an Apple store? Its a shame they don't have a 15" LCD which would be cheap and small, a good match to the mini. He does have a point about potential switchers being frustrated by their keyboard and mouse not working. 90% of computer users will look at the salesman with a deer in the headlights look if asked whether their keyboard and mouse and PS2 or USB. But the bigger obstacle for know-nothing computer users is going to come when they try to load their Windows software on their new mini.
 

halfadder

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2004
1,190
0
0
Know-nothing PC users don't even know that the Mini exists, nor would they even be interested.

I think the Mini is great for those of us that want to experment. The Mini is also perfect for software developers that are interested in porting their applications to Mac OS X. For $575 they can order one with 512 MB and just plug it into their KVM switch at work because it even comes with the Xcode developer tools.
 

mdaniel73

Junior Member
Jan 15, 2005
23
0
0
Well I'm assuming that Apple is going to market the mini like, "Hey PC users: Tired of spyware, viruses, etc? Buy the cheapest Mac ever and just plug it in." I'm actually thinking of getting one to play around with and the lack of keyboad, mouse, and monitor is a plus for me since I have a 4 port KVM with two open ports. But most computer users don't have that and their eyes glaze over when I try to explain what a KVM switch does.
 

mrgoblin

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
1,075
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So halfadder. What your saying is A. the g4 1.25 ghz has life in it; 2. that the mac has games (besides the puzzle with the apple on it); 3. that you dont care about performance because you are comparing your imac with a via which is never a good situation and ;4. form factor is more important than value. Lets be honest here. Your not buying the imac because its a good computer, your buying into a trend. Its the same reason why people buy macs. Not because they are faster but because they look pretty and are fashionable. If you could run OSX on your pc with mac drivers, what would be the advantage of owning a mac? Without going into the reasons why people could also use linux and save a lot more money and still do everything a mac or pc can do, theres no reason why anyone should own an apple. I dont hate apple. I think they make fine mp3 players and monitors but until they get serious about processor power and price, I have no reason to make the switch. As far as form factor is concerned, there is the AMD PIC with its 250 buck price tag. BUT it also comes with a 15 inch crt mouse and keyboard. The way I look at it, the Imac mini just doesnt cost 500 bucks. 700 is probably the right number with what you need to buy. For 700 bucks, I can probably configure a shuttle system.
 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
0
0
The interest being generated in places like AT makes me think more and more that "PC geeks" were in mind when they made the Mac Mini. It needs to be small cause the targeted user already has a full sized PC (or 2 or 3). It doesn't need a KB/M 'cause the targeted user already has a USB KB/M (or 2 or 3 :)). Apple, I believe, is hoping for a trickle down effect. If the PC geeks (and websites, and mags) start seeing Macs as viable options (not replacements exactly) hopefully that will trickle down to the average user.


Lethal
 

mrgoblin

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
1,075
0
0
Originally posted by: LethalWolfe
The interest being generated in places like AT makes me think more and more that "PC geeks" were in mind when they made the Mac Mini. It needs to be small cause the targeted user already has a full sized PC (or 2 or 3). It doesn't need a KB/M 'cause the targeted user already has a USB KB/M (or 2 or 3 :)). Apple, I believe, is hoping for a trickle down effect. If the PC geeks (and websites, and mags) start seeing Macs as viable options (not replacements exactly) hopefully that will trickle down to the average user.


Lethal

No they just want to sell something besides ipods :-\
 

halfadder

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2004
1,190
0
0
Originally posted by: mrgoblin
So halfadder. What your saying is A. the g4 1.25 ghz has life in it; 2. that the mac has games (besides the puzzle with the apple on it); 3. that you dont care about performance because you are comparing your imac with a via which is never a good situation and ;4. form factor is more important than value. Lets be honest here. Your not buying the imac because its a good computer, your buying into a trend. Its the same reason why people buy macs. Not because they are faster but because they look pretty and are fashionable. If you could run OSX on your pc with mac drivers, what would be the advantage of owning a mac? As far as form factor is concerned, there is the AMD PIC [L]http://www.amdboard.com/pic.html[/L] with its 250 buck price tag. BUT [l]http://www.amd.com.hk/us-en/ConnectivitySolutions/ProductInformation/0,,50_2330_12264_12262,00.html[/L] it also comes with a 15 inch crt mouse and keyboard. The way I look at it, the Imac mini just doesnt cost 500 bucks. 700 is probably the right number with what you need to buy. For 700 bucks, I can probably configure a shuttle system.
Mac OS X has never had the Apple puzzle game, it has a 3D chess program instead.

What I'm saying is I'm a computer geek and I already have several PCs. I like variety and I like to try new things. I like to look over that wall and see what the other side is doing. That's why I play with Linux every now and then. That's also why I decided to buy a PowerBook when I needed a notebook. I didn't buy it because some rapper has one, I bought it because it has the basic specs I need and it's something different to try. The style is nice and so is the fit and finish, but those alone don't really justify the extra cost. I wish Apple didn't charge so much for their hardware, but I'm willing to pay a little more for the variety. I like WinXP, but I also like to try other things as well.

Value is relative. If I was buying my first and only computer, I would get the best bang for the buck and buy a PC. If I already had a PC and I needed to buy a notebook with a small fixed budget, I would probably buy a $600 Avertec or a $700 Dell, but the $800 - $900 iBook would have probably caught my attention as a computer geek who loves variety.

If Mac OS X ran on PC hardware, I would probably be running it on one of my PCs to experiment with. If Apple didn't exist, I would probably be using Linux more, or maybe buy an offbeat Acorn running RISC OS or some used "retro" computers like an old SGI O2 or a BeBox.

Form factor is not a huge priority for me, if you saw my room and my office you'd see enough ATX cases to prove that! I have also never had a problem carrying an Antec SolutionSeries case to a LAN party. But small form factor computers strike me as neat and interesting. There's something cool to me about being able to cram certain key features into such a small box. I do like the Shuttles, my next PC will probably be a NF4 A64 Shuttle when they become available.

Q: Why did I buy my PowerBook?
A: Because I needed a notebook and was interested in trying a Mac. Style and size were factors, but I think it was curiosity more than anything else. The basic specs I needed were there as were the basic application needs. Everything beyond that was a bonus and I have been very happy with my purchase. As time goes on I find myself using the PowerBook for more and more tasks. I could have saved about $380 at the time (December 2003) by buying a similar Dell, but it would have just been another Windows or Linux PC. It would be the same old thing.The PowerBook I bought was something different, it was my first Mac and it's been fun.

Q: Why did I order a Mac Mini?
A: I couldn't resist. And I'm going to use it to replace my grandpa's old Pentium 2 system. I will probably use it for a month or so before I give it to him. I already have the PowerBook, but it'll be fun to see how much I use the Mini once I have it connected to my KVM switch. Size isn't very important, but it's nice to know that I won't have to make room for it. The Mini will sit on top of one of my existing PCs.
 

hopejr

Senior member
Nov 8, 2004
841
0
0
mrgoblin: It's not an iMac we are talking about here. I know lots of PC users who *seem* to think that the only mac is an iMac. Drives me crazy.
halfadder: my 1GHz iBook still only with the stock 256MB RAM is quite usable running 6+ programs. But I will add more to it in the next week or so to get a performance boost out of it.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
I love the ads on the left.
One for Mac Mice, one for iPod's, and one for a 17" iMac G5 :)
 

Gurck

Banned
Mar 16, 2004
12,963
1
0
Originally posted by: LtPage1
this isnt the place to make fun of mac-bashers. try insidemacgames for that. get used to bad press from the ignorant masses- the mac has been getting it for years, its nothing new.

The computer-literate masses, maybe... the regular masses think macs are uber computers because they're expensive and have chic tv ads. They don't buy them because a Dell is 80% less expensive.
 

SunSamurai

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2005
3,914
0
0
Originally posted by: Gurck
Originally posted by: LtPage1
this isnt the place to make fun of mac-bashers. try insidemacgames for that. get used to bad press from the ignorant masses- the mac has been getting it for years, its nothing new.

The computer-literate masses, maybe... the regular masses think macs are uber computers because they're expensive and have chic tv ads. They don't buy them because a Dell is 80% less expensive.

Exactly what Dell is this small without a keyboard and mouse? IF they even had one, do you think it would preform as well? Do you think it would cost less?

HARDLY. Stop compairing things that arnt comparable. No one here is compairing a 300GB drive to a 36GB Raptor. They are for people with differant wants.
 

SunSamurai

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2005
3,914
0
0
Originally posted by: mrgoblin
So halfadder. What your saying is A. the g4 1.25 ghz has life in it; 2. that the mac has games (besides the puzzle with the apple on it); 3. that you dont care about performance because you are comparing your imac with a via which is never a good situation and ;4. form factor is more important than value. Lets be honest here. Your not buying the imac because its a good computer, your buying into a trend. Its the same reason why people buy macs. Not because they are faster but because they look pretty and are fashionable. If you could run OSX on your pc with mac drivers, what would be the advantage of owning a mac? Without going into the reasons why people could also use linux and save a lot more money and still do everything a mac or pc can do, theres no reason why anyone should own an apple. I dont hate apple. I think they make fine mp3 players and monitors but until they get serious about processor power and price, I have no reason to make the switch. As far as form factor is concerned, there is the AMD PIC with its 250 buck price tag. BUT it also comes with a 15 inch crt mouse and keyboard. The way I look at it, the Imac mini just doesnt cost 500 bucks. 700 is probably the right number with what you need to buy. For 700 bucks, I can probably configure a shuttle system.


No. Its $500. You seem confused. You see, if you want a keyboard mouse and monitor included, Apple has something called an iMac for that. Do you understand anything about targeted marketing? The shuttles are ugly and less powerfull.
 

Insomniak

Banned
Sep 11, 2003
4,836
0
0
I still don't understand why Macintosh doesn't just give up, aside from the fact that Bill Gates is paying them to stay alive.
 

Tiamat

Lifer
Nov 25, 2003
14,068
5
71
Originally posted by: aeternitas
Originally posted by: mrgoblin
So halfadder. What your saying is A. the g4 1.25 ghz has life in it; 2. that the mac has games (besides the puzzle with the apple on it); 3. that you dont care about performance because you are comparing your imac with a via which is never a good situation and ;4. form factor is more important than value. Lets be honest here. Your not buying the imac because its a good computer, your buying into a trend. Its the same reason why people buy macs. Not because they are faster but because they look pretty and are fashionable. If you could run OSX on your pc with mac drivers, what would be the advantage of owning a mac? Without going into the reasons why people could also use linux and save a lot more money and still do everything a mac or pc can do, theres no reason why anyone should own an apple. I dont hate apple. I think they make fine mp3 players and monitors but until they get serious about processor power and price, I have no reason to make the switch. As far as form factor is concerned, there is the AMD PIC with its 250 buck price tag. BUT it also comes with a 15 inch crt mouse and keyboard. The way I look at it, the Imac mini just doesnt cost 500 bucks. 700 is probably the right number with what you need to buy. For 700 bucks, I can probably configure a shuttle system.


No. Its $500. You seem confused. You see, if you want a keyboard mouse and monitor included, Apple has something called an iMac for that. Do you understand anything about targeted marketing? The shuttles are ugly and less powerfull.

You seem to be getting caught up in your own words. Firstly, the Mac Mini is as you say. However the shuttle is similar as well. The shuttle is not ugly and is not less powerful. Perhaps you can argue the first part of the latter sentance, however you simply cannot say something as broad as "less powerful".

The main problem with target marketting is that people just outside of that target are also interested, but start spreading bad news when the two or three additional components that they would want are not there.

Here are a couple examples of how similar $$ can get you a decent PC

Shuttle SN95G5: $309
AMD A64 3000+: $155
Mushkin 1GB PC3200: $137
Sapphire Radeon 9600 Pro 128MB: $104
Total: $705

Shuttle SK83G: $200
AMD A64 3000+: $135
Mushkin 512MB PC3200: $65
Sapphire Radeon 9600 Pro 128MB: $104
Total: $504

Obviously, the bottom one is closer to the price of the Mac Mini. I see the Shuttle winning here in everything that is ram intensive, and things like games hands down. Double the ram, and a much better graphics card. Not to mention the processor is nothing to laugh at.

If the mac mini were 400$, or came with 512MB ram, and 9600pro, things would be very different.
 

bigpow

Platinum Member
Dec 10, 2000
2,372
2
81
Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy
I just thought it might be interesting read for some people.

Nothing to see here folks, move along!

This IS exactly why there are a lot of Mac Bashers! (to counter Mac lovers!)
 

CrackRabbit

Lifer
Mar 30, 2001
16,642
62
91
Originally posted by: Tiamat
Originally posted by: aeternitas
Originally posted by: mrgoblin
So halfadder. What your saying is A. the g4 1.25 ghz has life in it; 2. that the mac has games (besides the puzzle with the apple on it); 3. that you dont care about performance because you are comparing your imac with a via which is never a good situation and ;4. form factor is more important than value. Lets be honest here. Your not buying the imac because its a good computer, your buying into a trend. Its the same reason why people buy macs. Not because they are faster but because they look pretty and are fashionable. If you could run OSX on your pc with mac drivers, what would be the advantage of owning a mac? Without going into the reasons why people could also use linux and save a lot more money and still do everything a mac or pc can do, theres no reason why anyone should own an apple. I dont hate apple. I think they make fine mp3 players and monitors but until they get serious about processor power and price, I have no reason to make the switch. As far as form factor is concerned, there is the AMD PIC with its 250 buck price tag. BUT it also comes with a 15 inch crt mouse and keyboard. The way I look at it, the Imac mini just doesnt cost 500 bucks. 700 is probably the right number with what you need to buy. For 700 bucks, I can probably configure a shuttle system.


No. Its $500. You seem confused. You see, if you want a keyboard mouse and monitor included, Apple has something called an iMac for that. Do you understand anything about targeted marketing? The shuttles are ugly and less powerfull.

You seem to be getting caught up in your own words. Firstly, the Mac Mini is as you say. However the shuttle is similar as well. The shuttle is not ugly and is not less powerful. Perhaps you can argue the first part of the latter sentance, however you simply cannot say something as broad as "less powerful".

The main problem with target marketting is that people just outside of that target are also interested, but start spreading bad news when the two or three additional components that they would want are not there.

Here are a couple examples of how similar $$ can get you a decent PC

Shuttle SN95G5: $309
AMD A64 3000+: $155
Mushkin 1GB PC3200: $137
Sapphire Radeon 9600 Pro 128MB: $104
Total: $705

Shuttle SK83G: $200
AMD A64 3000+: $135
Mushkin 512MB PC3200: $65
Sapphire Radeon 9600 Pro 128MB: $104
Total: $504

Obviously, the bottom one is closer to the price of the Mac Mini. I see the Shuttle winning here in everything that is ram intensive, and things like games hands down. Double the ram, and a much better graphics card. Not to mention the processor is nothing to laugh at.

If the mac mini were 400$, or came with 512MB ram, and 9600pro, things would be very different.

The things you are leaving out are a copy of Windows XP an optical drive and the other software that the mac mini comes with (ie DVD and Audio Editing and whatnot).
That adds another 3-400 bucks right there.
The other thing is that not everyone needs super powerful desktop machines to surf the internet and write term papers. People dont buy Macs to play games, they buy them for productivity or general use.