Logical Flaws in the Anti-War Arguments

RyanM

Platinum Member
Feb 12, 2001
2,387
0
76
I'm sick, sick, sick of seeing the same crap repeated over again. So I thought I'd address the major fallacies in the arguments of those who currently wallow in their own ignorance.

"This is only about the oil. We won't have blood for oil!"

Curious, indeed. I mean, we did move quickly to secure the oil wells. That was one of the main priorities, evidenced by the fact that we initialized the ground campaign immidiately so as to prevent their destruction. Surely this must be proof that we want nothing more than to prosper off the oil of the Iraqi people?

Of course, that would be incorrect.

Let's look at this, well, logically.

1. Iraq has the 2nd largest reserves of oil in the world.
2. Iraq's capacity to produce oil can be ramped up with moderate investment capital.
3. Iraq's links to terrorism are tedious at best.
4. Iraq has a moderately sized standing army.

Good on paper, right? We can go in there, get a buttload of oil, with reasonable casualties, and we can play the "Terror card."

Only, if oil were ACTUALLY the reason we were going in there, there'd be a better option.

1. Saudi Arabia has THE largest reserves of oil in the world.
2. Saudi Arabia's capacity to produce oil is already at 50%, and could be brought to 100% with no investment - The infrastructure is already in place.
3. There is enough circumstantial evidence to build a sizeable case against Saudi Arabia for the 9/11 attacks. For example, evidence suggests the Saudi royal family met with Osama bin Laden and provided over $300 million to support al-Qaeda, (Link), and fifteen of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi Arabian (Link.
4. Saudi Arabia currently has American troops stationed there to DEFEND it. A war on Saudi Arabia would be a walk in the park.

Add to that the fact that the U.S. currently only imports 3.5% of our oil from Iraq, and you'd see that Iraqi oil is of little import in the grand scheme of things.

Now, the French, Germans, and other nations that have spoke out against war, they care about oil. Hooo, boy do they care about oil. Those countries recieve upwards of 10% of their oil from Iraq, and not only that, they recieve it much cheaper than they do from other OPEC nations. Why? Lucrative trade deals with Saddam's Regime. If the U.S. goes in, and hand power over to the Iraqi people, they will have to negotiate new deals with Iraq - Ones that, given their support of Saddam's regime, would not likely be as juicy as they're used to. War on Iraq DIRECTLY effects the French and German economies, so their defiance is certainly not a result of some deep care for the Iraqi people. They're willing to see them slaughtered under Saddam's regime so they can save a few francs at the pump.

In essence, thanks to France and Germany, there is already blood in the oil. The U.S. is going in to remove it.

"But the links connecting Iraq to Al Qaeda are weak, tenuous at best. You can't possibly lie to us that attacking Iraq is a move in the war on Terror! THAT'S A LIE!"

Where, exactly, can terrorists be found? Many would say to look in the Philippines (Abu-Sayyaff), Afghanistan (al-Qaeda), or Lebanon (Hezbollah). But this is where you find the end result of terrorist action - the poor and deprived people of the world who have been raised to believe a suicide bomber is a martyr, and becoming a martyr is the greatest human achievement. The terrorists are fed, clothed, trained and encouraged by totalitarian leaders.

Killing the terrorists themselves solves nothing, yet terrorism practically extinguishes the possibility of peace, and therefore must be reduced if not fully eliminated. Just as we fight fire by removing the fuel, we also fight terrorism by removing the support structure it depends on. Unfortunately for us all, terrorism has found a safe harbor in the Middle East.

Certainly the suffering of many people would be lessened by Saddam Hussein's removal from power. As he has chosen not to seek exile, what option is there other than war? Any recent concessions on the part of Iraq are not founded on a fear of UN arms inspectors; they come from a fear of the massive military buildup on Iraq's borders. We have given the peace process a chance, for over a decade. Saddam has not.

Some seem unwilling to believe that Iraq supports terrorism in any way, which baffles me. Certainly there are many readers out there who remember Abu Nidal, who was recently killed after years of hiding in Baghdad. For those of you too young to know who Abu Nidal is, his name was synonymous with terrorism, before being upstaged by Osama bin Laden. I leave you to read up on his activities if you care to know what type of person is welcome under Saddam's rule.

In a remarkable attempt to seek the friendship and support promised to America after September 11, Secretary of State Colin Powell went before the UN and showed satellite photographs of terrorist training camps in Iraq. Audiotapes were played of Iraqi soldiers as they discussed how to hide chemical weapons from UN inspectors. In the secret world of intelligence, it is always possible that the most damning evidence might never be presented to the public, simply to preserve our most valuable intelligence gathering methods.

There is also Abu Musab Zarqawi, who Colin Powell identified as a former al-Qaeda affiliate and chemical weapons specialist, and who once planned the assassination of a US diplomat in Jordan. He is now suspected of helping Ansar al-Islam, another terrorist organization dedicated to the genocide of Iraqi Kurds, based in Northern Iraq. (Link)

If this is, in fact, a "war on terrorism", then what better tactical and logistical advantage could possibly be gained other than an Iraqi invasion? Take a moment to bring up a map of the Middle East (Lonely Planet works well, see http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/loc-mea.htm for a clean, convenient reference), and see where Iraq fits in the whole picture. Iran, one of the three "Axis of Evil" nations, would find itself stuck in a vise between an occupied Afghanistan and an occupied Iraq. Syria, which is also a major supporter of terrorism, would likewise find itself caught between an occupied Iraq and a democratic Turkey. Most important of all, an occupation of Iraq would cut the flow of funds and equipment through Iran, to Iraq, then Syria, into Lebanon, to finally explode in the discos and cafes of Israel. If the West Bank is where terrorists are found, then Iraq is where the terrorist supply network is found, and war is all about logistics.

Terrorism is enacted by the poor and suffering, who are duped into killing themselves by totalitarian leaders. It is those same totalitarian leaders who keep their source of martyrs poor. Again and again, Saddam has refused to use aid money to feed his own people. In March, 2000, the Iraqi government refused a UN Security Council proposal to provide over $49.4 million in aid to Iraqi pilgrims destined for Mecca. Instead, Iraq insisted the money be put directly into its central bank for them to spend at their own discretion.

"But the civilians! What about the civilian deaths! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"

It concerns us all. War is the ugliest facet of reality, and women, children, and the elderly will all fall victim, along with thousands of thousands of Iraqi combatants.

But it isn't Britain, or the United States, or Canada or France, who decided to put weapons in mosques to keep them from being destroyed. George Bush and Tony Blair are not surrounding themselves with human shields, and I would like to think they never would.

After 12 years of a cease-fire, 12 years of sanctions, 12 years of UN resolutions, Saddam was given a choice - Leave in exile, or be overtaken. He chose the former, and his decision is the one that has put Iraqis in the possible line of fire.

I believe the French and other countries which threatened veto of stricter UN resolutions in the final days share some of that blood on their hands.

Consider one of the first rules in the military. When in the presence of a commanding officer and the grunts below you, giving an order he's given you, you NEVER contradict what he's said. The men lower than you in rank must not be shown any rift in the chain of command. If you have issues with the order, you bring them up in private, because doing so in front of the troops will cause confusion and possibly worse. They may, thinking that you will stand up with them, refuse to obey the command.

In the same vein, if every nation in the UN stood together and told Saddam to disarm, there is a damn good chance he would've. But by threatening veto, by coming out in public against the march of Bush and Blair, they gave Saddam a card to play. He was then able to work that rift like the skilled manipulator he is, destroying a few missiles here, letting a few inspectors go there, but never complying with the spirit of the UN resolutions. He was able to tiptoe across the Line of Material Breach, and back again, without incurring the consequences.

"I don't care what Bush does. He didn't win the Presidency! GORE WON THE POPULAR VOTE!!!! Isn't this a democracy?

No. It's not a democracy, you twit. Perhaps if you didn't sleep through Goverment class in High School you'd know that.

::hushed silence::

The Constitution of the United States of America reads:
"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."

The Electoral College is a simple and basic component of our Constitution. It was contemplated for long periods of time by our founding fathers. It is designed, as all democracy should be, to protect the rights of the minority while expressing the will of the majority. It is perhaps the most effective and efficient institution of our government. It is simply a scapegoat because it has no opportunity to protect itself.

Our constitution is the law of our land and the legacy of our founding fathers. The moment we start to dissect when there is no need is disrespectful and detrimental to our society as a whole.
Many will argue that the idea is outdated. It has been reformed three times! - and as recently as 1961. It is not outdated, but effective and historical. People might argue that since it has been reformed before, it should be again. This is not the case. As the organization now stands, it is the best for the country and it's people.

States' Rights are upheld by the electoral college.
In a formal federal structure, important political powers are reserved to the component States. The highest official elected by popular vote is the State's Governor. This protects the rights of the state, which a direct vote would undermine.

Proposition is futile. The Electoral College is a constitutional aspect and would have to be changed by the senate. Since the senate is run by the small states, which the Electoral College represents, the proposition would be shot down. Minority interests are thence protected.

The electoral college is Effective and Efficient as stands.
The Electoral College meets once every four years, at their own capitals. No travel expenses. Many states don't even pay for lunch. They cast two votes in an office and send these to Washington.

Contributes to the cohesiveness of the country by requiring a distribution of a popular support to be elected president.

Thus I stand in the affirmative for keeping and not changing the Electoral College.

Conclusion

It's not about oil, this war supports the overall "War on Terror," civilian casualties, though regrettable, weigh on Saddam, his regime, and those in the United Nations which failed to put pressure on Iraq to follow their own Resolutions, AND Bush won the election, fair and square, and you can f*cking remove that misleading rubbish from your signatures.

I'm done.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Only, if oil were ACTUALLY the reason we were going in there, there'd be a better option.

1. Saudi Arabia has THE largest reserves of oil in the world.
2. Saudi Arabia's capacity to produce oil is already at 50%, and could be brought to 100% with no investment - The infrastructure is already in place.
3. There is enough circumstantial evidence to build a sizeable case against Saudi Arabia for the 9/11 attacks. For example, evidence suggests the Saudi royal family met with Osama bin Laden and provided over $300 million to support al-Qaeda, (Link), and fifteen of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi Arabian (Link.
4. Saudi Arabia currently has American troops stationed there to DEFEND it. A war on Saudi Arabia would be a walk in the park.

So rather than attacking someone who currently supplies competitors (France, Russia) with oil rather than you you'd attack an allie?
There are Al-Qaida terrorists from the US too, that does not mean the US government supports those. If there was proof of a connection between the terrorists and the government, and Saudi Arabia showed itself hostile against the US and Bush' b*ttbuddies rather than sucking up to them, then it would be war in no time. Circumstantial evidence does not mean sh*t when it concerns a friendly government.

But then, thinking isn't the strongest point of Bush supporters.
 

RyanM

Platinum Member
Feb 12, 2001
2,387
0
76
Oh, see, I was about to bother replying to that, but you included a personal attack in your response.

I'm not going to bother tangoing with a troll. My dance card is full, thanks.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Originally posted by: MachFive
Oh, and learn to spell "ally." It's not that hard.

English is not my primary language, so I have an excuse for bad spelling. What's your excuse for being a Bush supporting moron?

Edit: P.S. Even if Bush himself would post that it is indeed a war for Oil and to get the attention away from the fact that he can't get Osama you'd call him a troll for not agreeing with you.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,621
6,184
126
rolleye.gif
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Originally posted by: Alistar7
I'm still looking for a logical reason AGAINST this war...

There is no good reason to be against the removal of Saddam (unless you're him or one of his sons), but why didn't we drop a sh*tload of special forces off at Bagdad before Saddam could recall all his elite troups, and take him out in a fast land strike, rather than bombing the city hoping we'll get him. The hospitals don't have power, and are already full, while a gound war could have prevented most of that. All the airforce would have needed to do was to keep the Iraqi forces from reaching Bagdad meanwhile. Take out Saddam and the government is gone.
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
81
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: Alistar7
I'm still looking for a logical reason AGAINST this war...

There is no good reason to be against the removal of Saddam (unless you're him or one of his sons), but why didn't we drop a sh*tload of special forces off at Bagdad before Saddam could recall all his elite troups, and take him out in a fast land strike, rather than bombing the city hoping we'll get him. The hospitals don't have power, and are already full, while a gound war could have prevented most of that. All the airforce would have needed to do was to keep the Iraqi forces from reaching Bagdad meanwhile. Take out Saddam and the government is gone.


Umm, there is a difference between Special Forces in say a Ghost Recon game and the ones we have in real life. So we should've dropped the soldiers off right in the heart of Baghdad with all the SAMs around? That would've been a nice disaster. Or should we have put them on the perimeter where theres a good chance if they were detected, basically all the soldiers in Iraq would be knocking on the door of the building they're in?

To my current knowledge (haven't really kept up on the conditions of the hospitals) Aren't quite a few hospitals currently running on generators?

Most of the "elite" Republican Guard was already around or in Baghdad at the time, and with the airforce having to eventually stop for refueling etc, I don't see how that plan would work.

But then again, I am assuming you've gone through years of training and studying concerning combat and war, and have spent decades on the front lines to critique the military operation so highly.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: Alistar7
I'm still looking for a logical reason AGAINST this war...

There is no good reason to be against the removal of Saddam (unless you're him or one of his sons), but why didn't we drop a sh*tload of special forces off at Bagdad before Saddam could recall all his elite troups, and take him out in a fast land strike, rather than bombing the city hoping we'll get him. The hospitals don't have power, and are already full, while a gound war could have prevented most of that. All the airforce would have needed to do was to keep the Iraqi forces from reaching Bagdad meanwhile. Take out Saddam and the government is gone.


Kids watching too many movies.

Saddam's government would continue with out him. It's a family business.


 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
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Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
But then, thinking isn't the strongest point of Bush supporters.
Why do so many of the Anti-War arguements come back to Bush?
rolleye.gif
I'm not pro or anti Bush but I can tell you all the anti-Bush people seem to care more about bashing Bush than what's going on in the war or why we're there in the first place. It just makes your arguement look weak. I'll say it again...
rolleye.gif
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: Alistar7
I'm still looking for a logical reason AGAINST this war...

There is no good reason to be against the removal of Saddam (unless you're him or one of his sons), but why didn't we drop a sh*tload of special forces off at Bagdad before Saddam could recall all his elite troups, and take him out in a fast land strike, rather than bombing the city hoping we'll get him. The hospitals don't have power, and are already full, while a gound war could have prevented most of that. All the airforce would have needed to do was to keep the Iraqi forces from reaching Bagdad meanwhile. Take out Saddam and the government is gone.

Saddam does not have magical power over his goons. If he gets killed they all of a sudden wouldn't drop arms and welcome the coalition. Saddams goons have been terrorizing the population for decades. They know if they drop their arms, the population will seek revenge on them and be out for blood.

Although a surgical special forces strike against saddam would be nice, it is wishful thinking that if he were assasinated that all that is evil in Iraq would wither and die.
 

yowolabi

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
4,183
2
81
I'm also sick of the same stuff being repeated over again. There's a post every day with someone claiming to disprove the arguments of people who are anti-war, by someone who doesn't actually disprove the arguments.

First, the default position is to not be at war. Not being at war doesnt require justification, that's the way things are supposed to be. If you would like a war, the responsibility is on the people that want war to prove that the war is necessary. You would be much better served to put together a list of the reasons why war is absolute necessary than to put up a list of the weakest counterarguments to the original pro-war arguments and then argue against those. It's like me saying we have to attack Canada. You ask why and I give you a load of reasons. You and some others put up an argument disproving my reasons. I pick out the counterarguments that are easiest to attack and then do so. Because I did this, I claim the war on Canada must be justified. You can't justify a war at the reactionary level. Your arguments for war must be able to stand under scrutiny.

You've oversimplified the "no blood for oil" slogan. Either you don't understand what they're really saying, or you've purposely misrepresented the argument to make it easier to argue against.

The statements about Al-Qaeda connections being a lie only come up in response to those who claim that 9/11 is justification for attacking Iraq.

Saddam didn't force us to wage war on him. He didn't want us to, and at this point, neither did the U.N. We made a decision to go in there and take him out. Because it was our decision, the only blood is on the hands of the people who fired the weapons. All of this "you made me kill civilians by putting your weapons near a hospital" is justification logic. Sounds a lot like the man who says "If she would just act like I tell her to, I wouldn't slap her around." While this may be true, it doesn't place the responsibility for the slapping on anyone but the person doing the slapping. Are we seriously claiming that he should have put his weapons in a place that it was easier for us to bomb? It was his hope that his placement would deter us from dropping our bombs. We could have decided not to attack Iraq, or not to drop bombs on those places where civilians were present, but we didn't. Blaming France for civilian casualties is even farther from logic than blaming Saddam.

PS: You can't take the moral high road about responding to someone who said "But then, thinking isn't the strongest point of Bush supporters," when you've already set a much more derogatory tone with your post.

"I'm sick, sick, sick of seeing the same crap repeated over again. So I thought I'd address the major fallacies in the arguments of those who currently wallow in their own ignorance."
 

yowolabi

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
4,183
2
81
I didn't reply to the electoral college argument im my original reply because it's an anti-bush argument which is a separate thing and should be in a separate thread.

I find this interesting:

The Electoral College is a simple and basic component of our Constitution. It was contemplated for long periods of time by our founding fathers. It is designed, as all democracy should be, to protect the rights of the minority while expressing the will of the majority. It is perhaps the most effective and efficient institution of our government. It is simply a scapegoat because it has no opportunity to protect itself.

What I wonder is, where do you stand on affirmative action? That system was also put into place to protect the minority. It was put into place in recognition that those who are a minority do not have as good a chance economically because the majority acts in it's own self interest. This was more than theoretical, because it was proven with grandfather clauses, segregation, terrorist groups, company policies to not higher Black people, only specific places where blacks could live, and actual data on employment, that those in power were acting in conspiracy to keep the status quo and prevent Blacks from advancing, and would continue to do so unless they were made not to.

The argument against affimative action is now this. "It's reverse discrimination." By making sure that blacks and women are hired, you actually make it harder for a white male to get hired, and create the inequality that you are trying to fight against.

Let's apply that argument to the electoral college then. There was no historical action that was trying to be corrected. It was basically the paranoia of the smaller states that caused our current system. They saw that if elections were based strictly on population, then the states with the most people would be deciding things. The electoral college gives them more of a voice. By giving those smaller states more of a voice, a person's vote is devalued simply because he lives in a high population area. Giving "equality" to the minority creates a situation where the candidate with the most votes can still lose. Hardly equal.

It wouldn't make any sense to be against affirmative action, and for the electoral college. That is, unless you acknowledge that people don't care that much about right or wrong, but are guided mostly by self-interest, where positions are guided not by "what is fair?", but by what gains "me" the most.

 

AmbitV

Golden Member
Oct 20, 1999
1,197
0
0
So your argument is that Saudia Arabia is a better target than Iraq if this war were about the oil? But we're not attacking Saudia Arabia and hence it can't be about the oil?
That's it?

You know Saudia Arabia is one of the largest purchasers of U.S. arms? and Iraq is not?
 

oLLie

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2001
5,203
1
0
Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: Alistar7
I'm still looking for a logical reason AGAINST this war...

i'm still looking for a LOGICAL reason FOR this war.

1. Threat to U.S.
2. Violation of U.N. resolution

win.
 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,696
0
76
Originally posted by: oLLie
Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: Alistar7
I'm still looking for a logical reason AGAINST this war...

i'm still looking for a LOGICAL reason FOR this war.

1. Threat to U.S.
2. Violation of U.N. resolution

win.



1. Their so called "WMDs" dont even have the capability to reach anywhere near us. Dont even think about the Al- Qaeda and Iraq connection... there is none.

2. If we actually listened to the UN, we wouldnt be going to war in the first place.

Plus: Isreal has 68 UN violations, Iraq has 16...

waiting on the invasion of Isreal
rolleye.gif
 

TheShiz

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: oLLie
Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: Alistar7
I'm still looking for a logical reason AGAINST this war...

i'm still looking for a LOGICAL reason FOR this war.

1. Threat to U.S.
2. Violation of U.N. resolution

win.



1. Their so called "WMDs" dont even have the capability to reach anywhere near us. Dont even think about the Al- Qaeda and Iraq connection... there is none.

2. If we actually listened to the UN, we wouldnt be going to war in the first place.

Plus: Isreal has 68 UN violations, Iraq has 16...

waiting on the invasion of Isreal
rolleye.gif


also interesting is the fact that the United States has by far vetoed the most UN resolutions of any country since the 1970's.
 

Judgement

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
3,815
0
0
Originally posted by: MachFive
I'm sick, sick, sick of seeing the same crap repeated over again. So I thought I'd address the major fallacies in the arguments of those who currently wallow in their own ignorance.

"This is only about the oil. We won't have blood for oil!"

Curious, indeed. I mean, we did move quickly to secure the oil wells. That was one of the main priorities, evidenced by the fact that we initialized the ground campaign immidiately so as to prevent their destruction. Surely this must be proof that we want nothing more than to prosper off the oil of the Iraqi people?

Of course, that would be incorrect.

Let's look at this, well, logically.

1. Iraq has the 2nd largest reserves of oil in the world.
2. Iraq's capacity to produce oil can be ramped up with moderate investment capital.
3. Iraq's links to terrorism are tedious at best.
4. Iraq has a moderately sized standing army.

Good on paper, right? We can go in there, get a buttload of oil, with reasonable casualties, and we can play the "Terror card."

Only, if oil were ACTUALLY the reason we were going in there, there'd be a better option.

1. Saudi Arabia has THE largest reserves of oil in the world.
2. Saudi Arabia's capacity to produce oil is already at 50%, and could be brought to 100% with no investment - The infrastructure is already in place.
3. There is enough circumstantial evidence to build a sizeable case against Saudi Arabia for the 9/11 attacks. For example, evidence suggests the Saudi royal family met with Osama bin Laden and provided over $300 million to support al-Qaeda, (Link), and fifteen of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi Arabian (Link.
4. Saudi Arabia currently has American troops stationed there to DEFEND it. A war on Saudi Arabia would be a walk in the park.

Add to that the fact that the U.S. currently only imports 3.5% of our oil from Iraq, and you'd see that Iraqi oil is of little import in the grand scheme of things.

Now, the French, Germans, and other nations that have spoke out against war, they care about oil. Hooo, boy do they care about oil. Those countries recieve upwards of 10% of their oil from Iraq, and not only that, they recieve it much cheaper than they do from other OPEC nations. Why? Lucrative trade deals with Saddam's Regime. If the U.S. goes in, and hand power over to the Iraqi people, they will have to negotiate new deals with Iraq - Ones that, given their support of Saddam's regime, would not likely be as juicy as they're used to. War on Iraq DIRECTLY effects the French and German economies, so their defiance is certainly not a result of some deep care for the Iraqi people. They're willing to see them slaughtered under Saddam's regime so they can save a few francs at the pump.

In essence, thanks to France and Germany, there is already blood in the oil. The U.S. is going in to remove it.

"But the links connecting Iraq to Al Qaeda are weak, tenuous at best. You can't possibly lie to us that attacking Iraq is a move in the war on Terror! THAT'S A LIE!"

Where, exactly, can terrorists be found? Many would say to look in the Philippines (Abu-Sayyaff), Afghanistan (al-Qaeda), or Lebanon (Hezbollah). But this is where you find the end result of terrorist action - the poor and deprived people of the world who have been raised to believe a suicide bomber is a martyr, and becoming a martyr is the greatest human achievement. The terrorists are fed, clothed, trained and encouraged by totalitarian leaders.

Killing the terrorists themselves solves nothing, yet terrorism practically extinguishes the possibility of peace, and therefore must be reduced if not fully eliminated. Just as we fight fire by removing the fuel, we also fight terrorism by removing the support structure it depends on. Unfortunately for us all, terrorism has found a safe harbor in the Middle East.

Certainly the suffering of many people would be lessened by Saddam Hussein's removal from power. As he has chosen not to seek exile, what option is there other than war? Any recent concessions on the part of Iraq are not founded on a fear of UN arms inspectors; they come from a fear of the massive military buildup on Iraq's borders. We have given the peace process a chance, for over a decade. Saddam has not.

Some seem unwilling to believe that Iraq supports terrorism in any way, which baffles me. Certainly there are many readers out there who remember Abu Nidal, who was recently killed after years of hiding in Baghdad. For those of you too young to know who Abu Nidal is, his name was synonymous with terrorism, before being upstaged by Osama bin Laden. I leave you to read up on his activities if you care to know what type of person is welcome under Saddam's rule.

In a remarkable attempt to seek the friendship and support promised to America after September 11, Secretary of State Colin Powell went before the UN and showed satellite photographs of terrorist training camps in Iraq. Audiotapes were played of Iraqi soldiers as they discussed how to hide chemical weapons from UN inspectors. In the secret world of intelligence, it is always possible that the most damning evidence might never be presented to the public, simply to preserve our most valuable intelligence gathering methods.

There is also Abu Musab Zarqawi, who Colin Powell identified as a former al-Qaeda affiliate and chemical weapons specialist, and who once planned the assassination of a US diplomat in Jordan. He is now suspected of helping Ansar al-Islam, another terrorist organization dedicated to the genocide of Iraqi Kurds, based in Northern Iraq. (Link)

If this is, in fact, a "war on terrorism", then what better tactical and logistical advantage could possibly be gained other than an Iraqi invasion? Take a moment to bring up a map of the Middle East (Lonely Planet works well, see http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/loc-mea.htm for a clean, convenient reference), and see where Iraq fits in the whole picture. Iran, one of the three "Axis of Evil" nations, would find itself stuck in a vise between an occupied Afghanistan and an occupied Iraq. Syria, which is also a major supporter of terrorism, would likewise find itself caught between an occupied Iraq and a democratic Turkey. Most important of all, an occupation of Iraq would cut the flow of funds and equipment through Iran, to Iraq, then Syria, into Lebanon, to finally explode in the discos and cafes of Israel. If the West Bank is where terrorists are found, then Iraq is where the terrorist supply network is found, and war is all about logistics.

Terrorism is enacted by the poor and suffering, who are duped into killing themselves by totalitarian leaders. It is those same totalitarian leaders who keep their source of martyrs poor. Again and again, Saddam has refused to use aid money to feed his own people. In March, 2000, the Iraqi government refused a UN Security Council proposal to provide over $49.4 million in aid to Iraqi pilgrims destined for Mecca. Instead, Iraq insisted the money be put directly into its central bank for them to spend at their own discretion.

"But the civilians! What about the civilian deaths! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"

It concerns us all. War is the ugliest facet of reality, and women, children, and the elderly will all fall victim, along with thousands of thousands of Iraqi combatants.

But it isn't Britain, or the United States, or Canada or France, who decided to put weapons in mosques to keep them from being destroyed. George Bush and Tony Blair are not surrounding themselves with human shields, and I would like to think they never would.

After 12 years of a cease-fire, 12 years of sanctions, 12 years of UN resolutions, Saddam was given a choice - Leave in exile, or be overtaken. He chose the former, and his decision is the one that has put Iraqis in the possible line of fire.

I believe the French and other countries which threatened veto of stricter UN resolutions in the final days share some of that blood on their hands.

Consider one of the first rules in the military. When in the presence of a commanding officer and the grunts below you, giving an order he's given you, you NEVER contradict what he's said. The men lower than you in rank must not be shown any rift in the chain of command. If you have issues with the order, you bring them up in private, because doing so in front of the troops will cause confusion and possibly worse. They may, thinking that you will stand up with them, refuse to obey the command.

In the same vein, if every nation in the UN stood together and told Saddam to disarm, there is a damn good chance he would've. But by threatening veto, by coming out in public against the march of Bush and Blair, they gave Saddam a card to play. He was then able to work that rift like the skilled manipulator he is, destroying a few missiles here, letting a few inspectors go there, but never complying with the spirit of the UN resolutions. He was able to tiptoe across the Line of Material Breach, and back again, without incurring the consequences.

"I don't care what Bush does. He didn't win the Presidency! GORE WON THE POPULAR VOTE!!!! Isn't this a democracy?

No. It's not a democracy, you twit. Perhaps if you didn't sleep through Goverment class in High School you'd know that.

::hushed silence::

The Constitution of the United States of America reads:
"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."

The Electoral College is a simple and basic component of our Constitution. It was contemplated for long periods of time by our founding fathers. It is designed, as all democracy should be, to protect the rights of the minority while expressing the will of the majority. It is perhaps the most effective and efficient institution of our government. It is simply a scapegoat because it has no opportunity to protect itself.

Our constitution is the law of our land and the legacy of our founding fathers. The moment we start to dissect when there is no need is disrespectful and detrimental to our society as a whole.
Many will argue that the idea is outdated. It has been reformed three times! - and as recently as 1961. It is not outdated, but effective and historical. People might argue that since it has been reformed before, it should be again. This is not the case. As the organization now stands, it is the best for the country and it's people.

States' Rights are upheld by the electoral college.
In a formal federal structure, important political powers are reserved to the component States. The highest official elected by popular vote is the State's Governor. This protects the rights of the state, which a direct vote would undermine.

Proposition is futile. The Electoral College is a constitutional aspect and would have to be changed by the senate. Since the senate is run by the small states, which the Electoral College represents, the proposition would be shot down. Minority interests are thence protected.

The electoral college is Effective and Efficient as stands.
The Electoral College meets once every four years, at their own capitals. No travel expenses. Many states don't even pay for lunch. They cast two votes in an office and send these to Washington.

Contributes to the cohesiveness of the country by requiring a distribution of a popular support to be elected president.

Thus I stand in the affirmative for keeping and not changing the Electoral College.

Conclusion

It's not about oil, this war supports the overall "War on Terror," civilian casualties, though regrettable, weigh on Saddam, his regime, and those in the United Nations which failed to put pressure on Iraq to follow their own Resolutions, AND Bush won the election, fair and square, and you can f*cking remove that misleading rubbish from your signatures.

I'm done.


Excellent post. I found your comparison between the military and the U.N. to be a good analogy. If the U.N. hadn't argued internally for the world to see, this war may not have even been necessary.
 

oLLie

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2001
5,203
1
0
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: oLLie
Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: Alistar7
I'm still looking for a logical reason AGAINST this war...

i'm still looking for a LOGICAL reason FOR this war.

1. Threat to U.S.
2. Violation of U.N. resolution

win.



1. Their so called "WMDs" dont even have the capability to reach anywhere near us. Dont even think about the Al- Qaeda and Iraq connection... there is none.

2. If we actually listened to the UN, we wouldnt be going to war in the first place.

Plus: Isreal has 68 UN violations, Iraq has 16...

waiting on the invasion of Isreal
rolleye.gif

Where did you see WMD's in my post? Who said they were going to be DIRECTLY attacking us? What about the al-Qaeda training camp in Iraq?
#2. Your phrase should say: "If we actually listened to the UN we wouldn't be accomplishing anything in the first place". Why do you treat the UN as some sort of single entity that does not condone this war? Are you saying the U.S. has 0 supporters in the U.N.?
You put faith in a body that lets Iraq head the commission on disarmament and a body which doesn't have the protection of the U.S. citizens as its #1 priority, so why would they support this action? They don't care about threat to American lives... they care about not having any of their soldiers killed, and not spending any of their countries $ to help anyone but themselves. As for Israel, I never stated what my position was on that... besides the obvious fact that that's another topic for another thread.

Next time you try refuting my arguments, try to refute my arguments.
 

elzmaddy

Senior member
Oct 29, 2002
479
0
0
I too have not seen any logical arguments FOR the war.

There are plenty of nations the US could go after before Iraq, which are bigger threats and where you could actually find some WMDs. Saddam gassed his own people -- but it already happened. Killing more will not undo that. The US obviously didn't care too much at the time either. Rumsfeld shook Saddam's hand soon after that incident, didn't he? No real link between Iraq and al Qaeda has been proven. Attacking an Arab country without direct provocation, without UN approval is more likely to increase the chance of terrorism than decrease it. You just can't fight fire with fire, you only fuel it that way. The list just goes on and on...
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,621
6,184
126
Originally posted by: yowolabi
I'm also sick of the same stuff being repeated over again. There's a post every day with someone claiming to disprove the arguments of people who are anti-war, by someone who doesn't actually disprove the arguments.

First, the default position is to not be at war. Not being at war doesnt require justification, that's the way things are supposed to be. If you would like a war, the responsibility is on the people that want war to prove that the war is necessary. You would be much better served to put together a list of the reasons why war is absolute necessary than to put up a list of the weakest counterarguments to the original pro-war arguments and then argue against those. It's like me saying we have to attack Canada. You ask why and I give you a load of reasons. You and some others put up an argument disproving my reasons. I pick out the counterarguments that are easiest to attack and then do so. Because I did this, I claim the war on Canada must be justified. You can't justify a war at the reactionary level. Your arguments for war must be able to stand under scrutiny.

You've oversimplified the "no blood for oil" slogan. Either you don't understand what they're really saying, or you've purposely misrepresented the argument to make it easier to argue against.

The statements about Al-Qaeda connections being a lie only come up in response to those who claim that 9/11 is justification for attacking Iraq.

Saddam didn't force us to wage war on him. He didn't want us to, and at this point, neither did the U.N. We made a decision to go in there and take him out. Because it was our decision, the only blood is on the hands of the people who fired the weapons. All of this "you made me kill civilians by putting your weapons near a hospital" is justification logic. Sounds a lot like the man who says "If she would just act like I tell her to, I wouldn't slap her around." While this may be true, it doesn't place the responsibility for the slapping on anyone but the person doing the slapping. Are we seriously claiming that he should have put his weapons in a place that it was easier for us to bomb? It was his hope that his placement would deter us from dropping our bombs. We could have decided not to attack Iraq, or not to drop bombs on those places where civilians were present, but we didn't. Blaming France for civilian casualties is even farther from logic than blaming Saddam.

PS: You can't take the moral high road about responding to someone who said "But then, thinking isn't the strongest point of Bush supporters," when you've already set a much more derogatory tone with your post.

"I'm sick, sick, sick of seeing the same crap repeated over again. So I thought I'd address the major fallacies in the arguments of those who currently wallow in their own ignorance."

Amen!
 

Thraxen

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2001
4,683
1
81
There are plenty of nations the US could go after before Iraq, which are bigger threats and where you could actually find some WMDs. Saddam gassed his own people -- but it already happened. Killing more will not undo that. The US obviously didn't care too much at the time either.

Ahhh, yes, the classic "damn if you do and damned if you don't" approach. We're damned for not doing anything earlier (not that any one else did either) or for not going after other "bigger" threats first...and we're also damned for going after Saddam now. Some sweet logic there.

No real link between Iraq and al Qaeda has been proven.

Beyond known training camps and the fact that the Iraqi government pays money to the familes of suicide bombers...no, there may be no known (that I know of anyway) direct link to al Qaeda, but there are plenty to terrorism. As if Saddam hasn't done enough evil to deserve this whether there is a link to al Queda or not
rolleye.gif
 

blahblah

Member
Jun 3, 2001
125
0
0
Originally posted by: yowolabi
I'm also sick of the same stuff being repeated over again. There's a post every day with someone claiming to disprove the arguments of people who are anti-war, by someone who doesn't actually disprove the arguments.

First, the default position is to not be at war. Not being at war doesnt require justification, that's the way things are supposed to be. If you would like a war, the responsibility is on the people that want war to prove that the war is necessary. You would be much better served to put together a list of the reasons why war is absolute necessary than to put up a list of the weakest counterarguments to the original pro-war arguments and then argue against those. It's like me saying we have to attack Canada. You ask why and I give you a load of reasons. You and some others put up an argument disproving my reasons. I pick out the counterarguments that are easiest to attack and then do so. Because I did this, I claim the war on Canada must be justified. You can't justify a war at the reactionary level. Your arguments for war must be able to stand under scrutiny.

You've oversimplified the "no blood for oil" slogan. Either you don't understand what they're really saying, or you've purposely misrepresented the argument to make it easier to argue against.

The statements about Al-Qaeda connections being a lie only come up in response to those who claim that 9/11 is justification for attacking Iraq.

Saddam didn't force us to wage war on him. He didn't want us to, and at this point, neither did the U.N. We made a decision to go in there and take him out. Because it was our decision, the only blood is on the hands of the people who fired the weapons. All of this "you made me kill civilians by putting your weapons near a hospital" is justification logic. Sounds a lot like the man who says "If she would just act like I tell her to, I wouldn't slap her around." While this may be true, it doesn't place the responsibility for the slapping on anyone but the person doing the slapping. Are we seriously claiming that he should have put his weapons in a place that it was easier for us to bomb? It was his hope that his placement would deter us from dropping our bombs. We could have decided not to attack Iraq, or not to drop bombs on those places where civilians were present, but we didn't. Blaming France for civilian casualties is even farther from logic than blaming Saddam.

PS: You can't take the moral high road about responding to someone who said "But then, thinking isn't the strongest point of Bush supporters," when you've already set a much more derogatory tone with your post.

"I'm sick, sick, sick of seeing the same crap repeated over again. So I thought I'd address the major fallacies in the arguments of those who currently wallow in their own ignorance."

What he said.

Plus, let not be naive here, maybe oil is not the primary reason for this war. But I do believe it played some porttion in the decision making. Furthermore, all oil producing country belong to OPEC which can slow down oil production if they see the price falling. Much like what they plan to do now. Imagine if US/British controls the 2nd largest oil reserve without interferance from OPEC.. Anyways, I am not saying they went to war for oil only, but it is one of many factors, including removing Saddam from power.