Living the self-examined life

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Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
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Anger at an injustice is a bit different than anger that can be let go of by counting to ten. Taking a break from an everyday source of anger can be incredibly helpful. It can answer the question, "How important is it?" and save them from possibly doing or saying something they'd later regret.

Of course, you are right. They are not congruent, merely analogous, at best.

I should stress that I don't move through this world in a permanent rage. Not every accidental bump leads to a fight.
But if someone jumps a queue in front of me I mention it. I hate that. This often leads to a bit of a jostle and an exchange of strong profanities. If the jumper stays in place I keep up my critique. Other people around me never take my side. They are acutely embarrassed, they squirm, they think they are about to witness murder.
If I stand my ground I feel calm afterwards and yes, even a little brave. When I give way to the rule breaker I feel angry and humiliated and that negative self hatred can last for days.
I did once have a gun pulled on me in San Francisco, and yes, I backed down, but that has never happened in Europe.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
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www.bradlygsmith.org
Of course, you are right. They are not congruent, merely analogous, at best.

I should stress that I don't move through this world in a permanent rage. Not every accidental bump leads to a fight.
But if someone jumps a queue in front of me I mention it. I hate that. This often leads to a bit of a jostle and an exchange of strong profanities. If the jumper stays in place I keep up my critique. Other people around me never take my side. They are acutely embarrassed, they squirm, they think they are about to witness murder.
If I stand my ground I feel calm afterwards and yes, even a little brave. When I give way to the rule breaker I feel angry and humiliated and that negative self hatred can last for days.
I did once have a gun pulled on me in San Francisco, and yes, I backed down, but that has never happened in Europe.

Even with much less gun violence in Europe (that's not the only thing I wish America shared with the continent) confrontation can get out of control. Do you feel the unexpressed anger (if you didn't confront the line jumper) would somehow be worse than the potential result of the confrontation? Are you saying that if you didn't confront the line jumper that the unexpressed anger will harm you in some way?

Letting go of anger and 'bottling' it are different things. When I think of bottling it, I think of someone who sees the line jumper, doesn't do anything, but then seethes about it to come out later in an irresponsible way. Don't we (as adults) have choices as to whether it 'gets to us' like that?
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
508
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Even with much less gun violence in Europe (that's not the only thing I wish America shared with the continent) confrontation can get out of control.
My knowledge of the U.S. comes from regular tourist trips and the odd work-related journey, so my following observations might be way off target.
But I find that the average American is exquisitely polite, in dealings with me, at least. Complete strangers call me 'sir' and I notice that they do that to fellow Americans too. I have a hunch that the profusion of guns in the U.S. actually leads (at least among the non-psychotic) to a superficial politeness for fear that lethal force might only be a trigger pull away. Best not rub people up the wrong way. Americans are also extraordinarily kind to me, offering to go out of their way to help; country people especially.


Do you feel the unexpressed anger (if you didn't confront the line jumper) would somehow be worse than the potential result of the confrontation? Are you saying that if you didn't confront the line jumper that the unexpressed anger will harm you in some way?
Exactly that, yes. Suppressing legitimate anger is terribly corrosive for me. Until this conversation I assumed everyone felt like that. I used to try to bottle it but I now know the symptoms. Higher blood pressure, tachycardia all the signs that your body is under great stress. Confronting the rule -breaker actually calms me down. My reaction is very carefully graded though.
"Sorry, there is a queue here" (offender ignores me)
"Err, I'm actually ahead of you" (offender continues to avoid eye contact)
"Look pal, I was here first, OK?" ( offender turns, feigns ignorance)
If they move away and fall in behind me, I thank them. If not, I place myself in front of them. This actually works 9 times out of ten, as the next stage will involve breaching the no-contact rule. If offender pushes back, I then ask the person serving the line not to serve the offender before me. This public shaming also works. I keep up this commentary until he/she backs down or starts to blush. I engage in a friendly way with the server, making it hard for server to favour the offender over me.
If there is still no resolution then one must make an assessment of the resolve and physical characteristics of the offender. I would not push this too far in South Central L.A., of course.
If the guy still gets served ahead of me then an accidental nudge will make him spill some of his beer and he will look silly. He now has a choice, drop his beer and thump me, or say " F*** You" and walk away. It is invariably the latter.


Letting go of anger and 'bottling' it are different things. When I think of bottling it, I think of someone who sees the line jumper, doesn't do anything, but then seethes about it to come out later in an irresponsible way. Don't we (as adults) have choices as to whether it 'gets to us' like that?
Certainly they are different, I just cannot do 'bottling'. How does "letting go" differ from giving-in? I'm not clear about that.
Encountering bad behaviour gets to me every time. The glue that holds polite society together is important. People need to be told when they break the rules.
Pretending not to have seen the offence is the start of a corrosive unhealthy self-deception, IMHO
Oh, the other thing that lets my crocodile out of the cage is people who put their feet on the seats in public transport.....
 

inachu

Platinum Member
Aug 22, 2014
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----------------Both emotions are just part of the human condition, I'm not sure they need to be controlled or deflected.

YOu do not control them or deflect them. It is the state of being passive. Again know that all is vanity and the waters of your life will reflect without any ripples.

Reminds me of that moment that Steven Segal keeps slapping a man asking him how long will it take a man to learn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXuYMzu5_xs
 
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Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
508
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Again know that all is vanity and the waters of your life will reflect without any ripples.
Aah, so, Grasshopper...

But only a dead fish creates no ripples.

I'll be dead forever so I am not overly concerned about ripples during my brief existence. Nor am I worried about gazing at my reflection.

What value is a ripple-free life?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,152
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You put it very well.
There is quite a literature dealing with grief, loss and anger. Perhaps the best known is the work of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, based on her study of Chicago patients near death. She then tried to extend her 'stages of grief' model to include drug withdrawal and job loss. She lost the plot there, I think, and ended up with some vague generalities about the 'five stages of grief'. When challenged, she said that not all stages were necessary (denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance) nor did they have to be in that order! Durr!
But it was a start. A recognition that a new subject area had emerged.

Since then George Bonanno has pointed out that many people acquire 'resilience' to these challenges which at some point will reach us all. The U.S. military like the resilience model and believe that it can be taught to troops, thus saving money on PTSD counselling. There is a useful article in Sci Am (March 2011) entitled "The neuroscience of true grit", which attempts to deal with all this. Alan Leventhall has some very critical observations about the vagueness of all this research.

Your report deals with your own experience in detail and makes no claim to be a general model of treatment. It has integrity and consistency because of this.
What you call your "moment of illumination" remains rather numinous but I share your joy that it arrived in time to 'save' you. Is 'save' an exaggeration, am I distorting your words? Apologies if so.

For me, the key section of your post (17) concerns the healing role of grief. Yes, it absolutely must be dealt with. It should be invited in, tears, rocking sobs, snot and all. Only when that lake is drained can we move on, IMHO.

My view is that we do not know what we feel, and what we feel, based on a childhood of conditioning is that we each feel like the worst person in the world, that we do not know it, don't want to know it, and don't want to know we don't want to know. We acquired these feelings by being put down as children, by being threatened by the withdrawal of parental support and love if we didn't behave differently, if we continued to express feelings, continued to be alive in the fullest sense, and thus bring out our own parents self loathing and self hate and fear of failure. They needed to protect us from their own contempt for themselves, to mold us into little automatons that would be accepted and never told we are worthless, to make of us successes. We were taught that what we feel is not acceptable, that what we feel is evil.

The mind of a child can't remain conscious of such rejection and has no choice but to conform and repress those feelings he or she dare not feel, anger and rage, say, at the parent, that can bring the roof down on you.

The result is that we grow up with a deep need for acceptance and love, and a terrible rejection of it when it comes, a 'come here get away' reaction, a need to test our relationships, an insecurity that those who love us must in fact be fools. One can see this in the badly broken. It's not so easy to see it in oneself, particularly if one is perhaps gifted and or successful. We all retain some breathing tube by which we stay alive.

So, if as I say, we have deeply hidden feelings that we are the worst in the world, and this feeling creates unconscious behaviors, we will act unconsciously to events in the world that trigger this feeling.

A person in cuts in line reminds you that he feels you are too worthless to stand behind, some donkey cuts in front of you with his car, somebody doing violence to another. Perhaps you have seen people so unhinged with self contempt that if you look at them they will accuse you of disrespect, perhaps with violence rather than a verbal complaint. So much of what we do is to protect us from feeling how worthless we feel, but real grief, feeling our real pain, can awaken memory.

When a person in therapy of the kind that allows feelings to come out, one is transported back in time and awakens to real events, the actual situations in which those feelings first occurred. It is when one brings the adult back in time to see what happened that the world can change, that ones deepest pain can come from some simple thing, a feeling perhaps that you were the cause of your parents divorce, on the reason your sister was punished instead of you, so many seemingly insignificant things that were once so huge. It is the real memories of what happened to us that can be used to integrate, to see that what one feels one had to feel but which were total lies, that there was never anything wrong with us at all.

Meanwhile, I try to remember, very unsuccessfully, most of the time, that a soft answer turns away wrath and the meaning of turn the other cheek is to be glad you only got hit once. When I see a person cut in line, I know that what he is saying is that he feels worthless, that he can't accept the fact that he should take his proper place in line. He doesn't have the personal dignity to do that, that he is in an inner state of hurt and misery, one that nothing I could do to him would compare to. People act in worthless ways because that's how they feel. If I feel contempt for them it tells me I feel that way too, that I hate something in me that reminds me of them.

I call this the futility of rate, all these feelings I feel, all this need for justice and equality, all this witnessing of evil in the world and not a thing I can do. I see only the crucifixion of Christ, that one must carry the cross if one wishes to awaken, that there is nothing one can do with ones rage but forgive.

Unfortunately, I'm not very good at it. Perhaps I will have to forgive that too.

If you haven't seen it, I would recommend the film Red Beard directed by Akira Kurosawa and staring Toshirô Mifune, I think it would be right up your alley. :)
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
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My view is that we do not know what we feel, and what we feel, based on a childhood of conditioning is that we each feel like the worst person in the world, that we do not know it, don't want to know it, and don't want to know we don't want to know. We acquired these feelings by being put down as children, by being threatened by the withdrawal of parental support and love if we didn't behave differently, if we continued to express feelings, continued to be alive in the fullest sense, and thus bring out our own parents self loathing and self hate and fear of failure. They needed to protect us from their own contempt for themselves, to mold us into little automatons that would be accepted and never told we are worthless, to make of us successes. We were taught that what we feel is not acceptable, that what we feel is evil.

I really struggle with this image of infancy and early childhood as some sort of psychic 'hell'. You often mention this theme and I do not doubt that it resonates with you. My problem here is two-fold. If I look at photos of me as a kid I seem to be blissfully happy, if I was feeling crushed I certainly was not revealing it to the camera.
My problems started much later when I was terribly bullied by local 'rough' kids. They went to a local rural sink school and lived in a cluster of council houses out in the sticks. They took exception to my 'posh' private school uniform. I was 8 or 9 they were 10 or twelve. I did not stand a chance as I travelled alone and three or four of them would work together. This went on for years. But time was on my side.
I told my mum and dad but they really wanted me to 'sort ' this myself. In retrospect, they were right. We must all fight our own battles. My tormentors were poor runts and poorly fed. I had good nutrition and grew faster for longer.

By 15 I was way stronger than anyone of them aged, now, 17 ish. I hunted them down, one at a time, we fought constantly on every occasion we met, until they became positively scared of me. In the end their mums came round to ask my mum to stop me beating them up. This was a delicious, infinitely delayed, victory. Now you know where I am coming from....why line jumpers get to me.

So you will seen that, if we are being 'psychodynamic', I'm more of an Adlerian and you are more Kleinian. Do you accept the tenets of Object Relations Theory? I find it too speculative, in Karl Popper's terms "unfalsifiable"

A person who cuts in line reminds you that he feels you are too worthless to stand behind, some donkey cuts in front of you with his car, somebody doing violence to another. Perhaps you have seen people so unhinged with self contempt that if you look at them they will accuse you of disrespect, perhaps with violence rather than a verbal complaint. So much of what we do is to protect us from feeling how worthless we feel, but real grief, feeling our real pain, can awaken memory.
I never felt 'worthless' but at 8, in the context of the bullies, I felt small and weak. This was not a fantasy, I was! The line jumpers remind me of my bullies and I know I must not let them triumph again. I'm getting too old for fighting now but I would still take a beating rather than walk away. Perhaps that sounds deeply nuts, but at least you know the origin of my 'pathology'.

When a person in therapy of the kind that allows feelings to come out, one is transported back in time and awakens to real events, the actual situations in which those feelings first occurred.
I have known friends who have benefited hugely from psychodynamic therapy but it is very expensive here, it lasts for years, and to be honest, I'm not sure I need it.

Meanwhile, I try to remember, very unsuccessfully, most of the time, that a soft answer turns away wrath and the meaning of turn the other cheek is to be glad you only got hit once. When I see a person cut in line, I know that what he is saying is that he feels worthless...
I feel that the jumper is full of arrogance and needs to be brought back to reality with a bump. But, yes, the soft way is always preferable and I always give that a go.

If you haven't seen it, I would recommend the film Red Beard directed by Akira Kurosawa and staring Toshirô Mifune, I think it would be right up your alley. :)
I have seen it. It is an astounding film. Mifune as Dr. Niide is stunning. His best role? When he rescues the child from the brothel despite the local 'toughs' trying to stop him...brilliant!
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
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Even with much less gun violence in Europe (that's not the only thing I wish America shared with the continent) confrontation can get out of control. Do you feel the unexpressed anger (if you didn't confront the line jumper) would somehow be worse than the potential result of the confrontation? Are you saying that if you didn't confront the line jumper that the unexpressed anger will harm you in some way?

Letting go of anger and 'bottling' it are different things. When I think of bottling it, I think of someone who sees the line jumper, doesn't do anything, but then seethes about it to come out later in an irresponsible way. Don't we (as adults) have choices as to whether it 'gets to us' like that?

Good, strong people need to stand up for whats right. Thats the whole point. There are strong people, but not all of them are good. Likely a disproportionate number of them are actually bullies since they can get away with it.

Very few people go through something like what Caravaggio went through, where you are weak then strong. Thats what builds character. People should always be striving for whats right in whatever small way they can.
 

who?

Platinum Member
Sep 1, 2012
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One of the principles of scientology is to eliminate emotional reactivity and use intellect instead.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,152
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Caravaggio: I really struggle with this image of infancy and early childhood as some sort of psychic 'hell'. You often mention this theme and I do not doubt that it resonates with you. My problem here is two-fold. If I look at photos of me as a kid I seem to be blissfully happy, if I was feeling crushed I certainly was not revealing it to the camera.

M: Same with me. I had a fabulous childhood compared to many.

C: My problems started much later when I was terribly bullied by local 'rough' kids. They went to a local rural sink school and lived in a cluster of council houses out in the sticks. They took exception to my 'posh' private school uniform. I was 8 or 9 they were 10 or twelve. I did not stand a chance as I travelled alone and three or four of them would work together. This went on for years. But time was on my side.
I told my mum and dad but they really wanted me to 'sort ' this myself. In retrospect, they were right. We must all fight our own battles. My tormentors were poor runts and poorly fed. I had good nutrition and grew faster for longer.

By 15 I was way stronger than anyone of them aged, now, 17 ish. I hunted them down, one at a time, we fought constantly on every occasion we met, until they became positively scared of me. In the end their mums came round to ask my mum to stop me beating them up. This was a delicious, infinitely delayed, victory. Now you know where I am coming from....why line jumpers get to me.

M: The tunnel to the self can be dug from two directions, achievement in the world that counteracts the possibility one could actually be the worst in the world, and feeling the feelings we have that it is true and seeing that the experiences we had caused us to believe in lies.

M: So you will seen that, if we are being 'psychodynamic', I'm more of an Adlerian and you are more Kleinian. Do you accept the tenets of Object Relations Theory? I find it too speculative, in Karl Popper's terms "unfalsifiable"

M: I know nothing about any of this. I only know what I learned from feeling what I feel.

C: I never felt 'worthless' but at 8, in the context of the bullies, I felt small and weak. This was not a fantasy, I was! The line jumpers remind me of my bullies and I know I must not let them triumph again. I'm getting too old for fighting now but I would still take a beating rather than walk away. Perhaps that sounds deeply nuts, but at least you know the origin of my 'pathology'.

M: You said pathology, I call it the fact that we had to believe in lies to survive.

C: I have known friends who have benefited hugely from psychodynamic therapy but it is very expensive here, it lasts for years, and to be honest, I'm not sure I need it.

M: I told you what I told you so you would hear what nobody else will tell you that I know of, a truth deeply hidden. I didn't tell you to convince you or suggest you do something with it. I think you are unusually psychologically sophisticated and might be curious and open to listening.


C: I feel that the jumper is full of arrogance and needs to be brought back to reality with a bump. But, yes, the soft way is always preferable and I always give that a go.

I have seen it. It is an astounding film. Mifune as Dr. Niide is stunning. His best role? When he rescues the child from the brothel despite the local 'toughs' trying to stop him...brilliant!

M: Several times in my life I have been so deeply engaged in a conversation with somebody as we head out to some event, that I have walked right by the line and the ticket folk right into the event. I hope you will forgive me especially knowing that I walk right back our and take my proper place in line.
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
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... you ...might be curious and open to listening.

I hope so, yes.

M: Several times in my life I have been so deeply engaged in a conversation with somebody as we head out to some event, that I have walked right by the line and the ticket folk right into the event. I hope you will forgive me especially knowing that I walk right back our and take my proper place in line.

I have never managed that, even by accident. You must have a certain 'presence', I'm impressed. They must have thought you were with the band.

As long as you returned to the back of the queue, that's fine with me.
Most people would have carried right on in.
Values matter. You passed.
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
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Well worth watching. Thoughts? Do you guys feel like you have affiliations to any of these forms of identity?

We would find it hard not to! Gender, ethnicity, class, religion, nationality...
Of course we have those identities. Statement of the bleeding obvious.

He was quite interesting (and wrong, of course) about Americans "not having a hierarchy". Complete BS but Brits living in the U.S. are prone to fawn before their new hosts.
Historians such as Carradine only read history so the fact that other people have been discussing multiple identities for 40 years has only just filtered through to him.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,152
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Well worth watching. Thoughts? Do you guys feel like you have affiliations to any of these forms of identity?

http://www.c-span.org/video/?324708-1/sir-david-cannadine-undivided-past

Definitely. It seems to me that my life has been about the loss of all those forms of identity and the suffering their loss produced, followed by the joy of realization that came in discovering the self that is left when all that can be taken is taken.

I am a nobody. Being nothing allows me to see that ego attachment is a disease. It is the result of being told that your true self is worthless and that conformity to one of those identities is the only way you will be worth anything. I lost my true self and that was the source of my suffering. You lose your self when you become something not real.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,152
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We would find it hard not to! Gender, ethnicity, class, religion, nationality...
Of course we have those identities. Statement of the bleeding obvious.

He was quite interesting (and wrong, of course) about Americans "not having a hierarchy". Complete BS but Brits living in the U.S. are prone to fawn before their new hosts.
Historians such as Carradine only read history so the fact that other people have been discussing multiple identities for 40 years has only just filtered through to him.

One has to be in the world. One does not have to be of it.
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
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One has to be in the world. One does not have to be of it.
I am not sure about the validity of that second sentence.
While I acknowledge your struggle to achieve detachment, and the peace and calm this has brought you, I doubt that it is a path open to all.

Let me take an extreme example (the extremes provide the most glaring evidence) of race/ethnicity in the USA.

Imagine that you are a poor black 20 year old in Baltimore. You might be heartily fed-up with your 'black identity' and might secretly wish, like the black writer James Baldwin, to become part of 'Another Country". But that identity is not open to you. It is imposed, by your skin, your community, your school, your life chances. It cannot be transcended or sloughed-off as even Obama has found. By being even 'half black' is still black enough to have to carry the 'burden' of the stereotypes. He is the least typical exemplar of a black man (in his attitudes, bearing and world view) but he cannot escape the crap that is imposed by that label.
Jews, for rather different reasons, have to struggle with identities they might chose to reject. A good example is provided by the recent book by the French/Israeli academic, Shlomo Sand called "How I Stopped Being a Jew" (2014).
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,152
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I am not sure about the validity of that second sentence.
While I acknowledge your struggle to achieve detachment, and the peace and calm this has brought you, I doubt that it is a path open to all.

Let me take an extreme example (the extremes provide the most glaring evidence) of race/ethnicity in the USA.

Imagine that you are a poor black 20 year old in Baltimore. You might be heartily fed-up with your 'black identity' and might secretly wish, like the black writer James Baldwin, to become part of 'Another Country". But that identity is not open to you. It is imposed, by your skin, your community, your school, your life chances. It cannot be transcended or sloughed-off as even Obama has found. By being even 'half black' is still black enough to have to carry the 'burden' of the stereotypes. He is the least typical exemplar of a black man (in his attitudes, bearing and world view) but he cannot escape the crap that is imposed by that label.
Jews, for rather different reasons, have to struggle with identities they might chose to reject. A good example is provided by the recent book by the French/Israeli academic, Shlomo Sand called "How I Stopped Being a Jew" (2014).

When I walk in the forest the animals run away. When I smile at children they often hide behind their mothers. When I walk through a parking lot at night and a woman is about I can sense her fear. When I find a lost child my first thought is to enlist the help of an other adult as witness to my behavior. Black people see me as white. I suffer because of these things. I think the more conscious you are the greater the weight you have to carry. I walk in a world full of evil intentions, but I am not of them, but the world tries to make me feel guilty. That is a burden I can accept or reject when I know the origins of my feelings of guilt. Do I buy into the role I was given, or do I bow my head and surrender to the suffering I must bear without transferring it to somebody else as blame?

Those who have been falsely maligned by identification, via color race, religion, sex, creed, etc. have the hardest time forgiving, but also have the most need to do so. The easiest path when somebody tells you that you are worthless is to prove them right by your actions.

The black man in a white world suffers from pejoratives assigned to blackness because white people hate themselves and need somebody else to place all those feelings of hate on, some one group at least, to whom their whiteness allows them to feel superior. They identify as white, something better than some other color. But white people didn't learn to feel worthless because they are white, but because they were told they were worthless as children, yes, the child that was once ones true identity, the timelessness child of being, nameless and without identity, the child that can never be lost and that we have always all been, the one who is the core of out being.

There is nothing to do, nowhere to go. There is only awakening.

We are fish looking for a mystery called water, eyes looking for the meaning of sight.
 

Caravaggio

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Aug 3, 2013
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When I walk in the forest the animals run away. When I smile at children they often hide behind their mothers. When I walk through a parking lot at night and a woman is about I can sense her fear. When I find a lost child my first thought is to enlist the help of an other adult as witness to my behavior. Black people see me as white. I suffer because of these things. I think the more conscious you are the greater the weight you have to carry. I walk in a world full of evil intentions, but I am not of them, but the world tries to make me feel guilty. That is a burden I can accept or reject when I know the origins of my feelings of guilt. Do I buy into the role I was given, or do I bow my head and surrender to the suffering I must bear without transferring it to somebody else as blame?
Most eloquently expressed. I empathise with your take on all those scenarios. But I lose you when you refer to your 'feelings of guilt'
Neither of us is guilty for trying to help a lost child, it is the nastiness and conformity of the fearful weak that lurks as a label. We are NOT to blame. We should not ever assume guilt if ignorant judgment tries to label us as 'dangerous' in the context of the events you list.
Those who have been falsely maligned by identification, via color race, religion, sex, creed, etc. have the hardest time forgiving, but also have the most need to do so. The easiest path when somebody tells you that you are worthless is to prove them right by your actions.
It might be 'easy', as in lazy, but it is a route to disaster. Rosa Parks refused to be a '******' at the back of the bus. She challenged the all-pervasive stereotyping of black people at the time and changed the law (after one hell of a struggle). She fought the law and the law had to be changed. She is my guiding star, when challenged by this type of situation.

The black man in a white world suffers from pejoratives assigned to blackness because white people hate themselves and need somebody else to place all those feelings of hate on, some one group at least, to whom their whiteness allows them to feel superior. They identify as white, something better than some other color. But white people didn't learn to feel worthless because they are white, but because they were told they were worthless as children, yes, the child that was once ones true identity, the timelessness child of being, nameless and without identity, the child that can never be lost and that we have always all been, the one who is the core of out being.
Again, agreed. But could you explain what is meant by "the timeless child of being". Is that where we start or a point we should aim for?

There is nothing to do, nowhere to go. There is only awakening.

We are fish looking for a mystery called water, eyes looking for the meaning of sight.

Superb metaphor. But here I reject the assertion that there is "nothing to do". We cannot accept the unacceptable, if we enter that zone it is personal annihilation. I might end there, who knows, but I shall resist it as long as I breathe.
Is that just my 'ego' struggling for the unattainable?
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
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So do you guys have any thoughts about what you can read in this book preview?

Absolutely none.

Why not tell us what you think about it Norse?
In your own words perhaps, without any distracting and tangential spurious links....try to make your statement declarative, personal and relevant to the theme debated here.
 

inachu

Platinum Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,387
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Aah, so, Grasshopper...

But only a dead fish creates no ripples.

I'll be dead forever so I am not overly concerned about ripples during my brief existence. Nor am I worried about gazing at my reflection.

What value is a ripple-free life?

No worries
No strife
No anger

healthy blood pressure
Content with life
longer life

A recent video on Abraham Lincoln stated that if there was anger or yelling in a room then he would just walk out and not deal with it.
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
508
1
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....
A recent video on Abraham Lincoln stated that if there was anger or yelling in a room then he would just walk out and not deal with it.

Alas, while he might well have tried to distance himself from anger, it came to find him at the theatre; an environment of peaceful artistic entertainment.

He was shot and murdered, age 56.

Surprising events happen. We are often taken unawares.

Lincoln is a bad role model for anyone striving for peaceful longevity.