little birdy told me an ivy es hit linx stable at 1.3 volts at 5.1ghz :)

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Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
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91
Vth ( gate-source threshold voltage) and time delay (determined by gate-source capacitance mainly , Cgss and Ciss) are by products
of the transistor geometry and caracteristics.

We can iterate much of the nfet/pfet caracteristics with just
these two curves.

No doubt, but that has virtually nothing to do with the question I was answering in the post of mine which you quoted above.

The question being asked was one of device reliability on the basis of operating voltage, I'd love to hear your answer to the question.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,515
4,301
136
The question being asked was one of device reliability on the basis of operating voltage, I'd love to hear your answer to the question.

The curves published show that :

The Vth of the devices has been lowered , wich allow for lower time delay as well as faster conduction of the switched devices , albeit this doesnt imply that the device losses will be lower at normal frequencies
but undoubtly better in low voltage/reduced frequency modes.

The Gm , that is transconductance in Ampere/volt , is 30% lower
than their 32nm node , so dont expect frequencies higher than in 32nm,
as the lower Gm will be barely counterbalanced by the lower
intrinsical capacitances.

All in all , we may well just witness the usual improvements
that are inherent to die shrinks with a little prime eventually,
but nothing as extraordinary as what everyone is figuring.

That said , pity that we cant upload our personal images,
as i ve got on a document the electrical and physical caracteristics
of all major manufacturers processes up to 32nm.

Will google to see if i can find it again...
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
The curves published show that :

The Vth of the devices has been lowered , wich allow for lower time delay as well as faster conduction of the switched devices , albeit this doesnt imply that the device losses will be lower at normal frequencies
but undoubtly better in low voltage/reduced frequency modes.

The Gm , that is transconductance in Ampere/volt , is 30% lower
than their 32nm node , so dont expect frequencies higher than in 32nm,
as the lower Gm will be barely counterbalanced by the lower
intrinsical capacitances.

All in all , we may well just witness the usual improvements
that are inherent to die shrinks with a little prime eventually,
but nothing as extraordinary as what everyone is figuring.

That said , pity that we cant upload our personal images,
as i ve got on a document the electrical and physical caracteristics
of all major manufacturers processes up to 32nm.

Will google to see if i can find it again...

None of that speaks to device reliability :confused:

You keep talking device parametrics which is not the same thing as reliability.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,515
4,301
136
None of that speaks to device reliability :confused:

You keep talking device parametrics which is not the same thing as reliability.

I suppose that you would like to know what are the limits
of the process , that is , the frequency/voltage function
as well as the upper limit of the supply voltage , wich would
yield the max frequency limit..?...

From the graphs , we can safely assume that it will
work reliably at 0.7/0.8V for frequencies up to 1/1.4ghz.

Max supply voltage will be inherently lower than SB , likely
that the 1.3V mentionned above will be the absolute Vds max.

As leakages increase dramaticaly with node shrink , it make sense
for Intel to focus on lower voltage and better efficency rather
than on frequency wich cant be increased otherwise than
with increasing the supply voltage.

As i mention it above , the fets speed depend not only
on the parasistics capacitances but also on Gm , that is,
the conductivity of the device.
(conductivity is the reciprocal of resistance , as such
its value is 1/R and the unit is in Siemens).

Basicaly , the time to charge a capacitor C is
T = R x C = C/Gm.

As such , with a 30% reduction in conductivity , if it was
the same node , the max frequency would be reduced by 30%,
but since the node shrink allow for theorical halving
oif the parasistic caps , the device should be 20% faster
despite its reduced Gm , probably a little less since
halving of the conductive tracks capacitances cant be attained ,
but still , a figure of 10% is possible , wich correlate well
with Intel s picture of 7% faster device at normal VDS ,
but i can only insist on the fact that the better performance
of the device is firstly in its capacity to work at low voltage,
while performances at the other side ,i.e , high frequency and
HIGHER voltage will not bring miracles even it seems to be the most desired feature by the geeks that hang by there...
 
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Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
2
81
it looks like intel just made these for max yields and power savings at there stock settings.

Well, the mobile market IS pretty big these days.

I, for one, look forward to new IB notebooks. Especially since the IGP got a bit more powerful. :colbert: I'm typing this right now using a notebook with a Core i5-2430M with integrated HD 3000 graphics (Dell Vostro V131). I haven't bothered playing shooter games, but it can play a decent game of LoL at lower settings. In fact, I once played almost 2 hours of LoL before noticing that the AC adapter wasn't even plugged in. Still had 50% left on battery.
 

dma0991

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2011
2,723
1
0
Well, the mobile market IS pretty big these days.

I, for one, look forward to new IB notebooks. Especially since the IGP got a bit more powerful. :colbert: I'm typing this right now using a notebook with a Core i5-2430M with integrated HD 3000 graphics (Dell Vostro V131). I haven't bothered playing shooter games, but it can play a decent game of LoL at lower settings. In fact, I once played almost 2 hours of LoL before noticing that the AC adapter wasn't even plugged in. Still had 50% left on battery.
Is the Vostro V131 battery life that good? I was considering one because of the 8 hour battery life but I thought that I should wait for the IB version of the V131. I just hope that the red color is still available for the IB version.
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
2
81
Is the Vostro V131 battery life that good? I was considering one because of the 8 hour battery life but I thought that I should wait for the IB version of the V131. I just hope that the red color is still available for the IB version.

Heh, my wife got the red one. I have the silver one.

Yes, I can actually get in the 8-9 hour range web browsing with WiFi. The caveat is that I'm using an SSD that I installed myself, with the power scheme on "Power saver" and with the screen brightness probably at half or just below. On the flip side I do leave the keyboard backlight on, so I suppose I can eke out another few minutes on battery if I have to. :whiste:

With the stock HDD, power scheme on the default "Balanced" and screen brightness turned up, I'd expect the 7-8 hour range, or maybe below that if doing HD videos or something.

Note that we both have the 6 cell battery that juts out, and the fastest CPU offered, the Core i5-2430M.

Some have claimed better battery life on the cheaper Celeron model (which is also a dual core Sandy Bridge).
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
I suppose that you would like to know what are the limits
of the process , that is , the frequency/voltage function
as well as the upper limit of the supply voltage , wich would
yield the max frequency limit..?...

Please read this. You keep talking about device parametrics instead of device reliability. The question was whether or not the CPU could survive the stress related to the voltage.
 

gramboh

Platinum Member
May 3, 2003
2,207
0
0
If I can hit 5.0GHz at a reasonable voltage (whatever 1.3v SB is equal to on IB) on a 3770k I will be pretty happy. Hope to get the wife a Macbook with IB mobile sometime in the spring/summer as well, looking forward to good battery life with an SSD.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
I think if Ivybridge doesn't result in a much better overclock, I will just hold onto my 2500k until Haswell. I will save my money for the i7 or what ever it will be called then.

I like the sound of these numbers. I'd like to get an IVB sytem that is otherwise similar to my current main rig, but with a mild OC on low volts in the 5.0-5.2 range. Then I can give mom the i7 920 so that she can read her yahoo emails faster, and give the elementary school my old q6600 setup. Sadly, that will be the 3rd fastest computer that they have, behind the other 2 I gave them last year.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
Absolutely. And improvements in the electrical characteristics of the oxide itself are possible, same holds true for e-field induced limitations in the BEOL where improved copper liners and dielectrics can increase TDDB at the same operating e-field.

Usually when you get a deconstruction analysis, cross-section SEM's and TEM's, you also get some DSIMs profiling which can speak to improvements through stoichiometric control.

I'm not sure what stoichiometric control is, but I think I studied it in chem 102 about 20 years ago...
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
I'm not sure what stoichiometric control is, but I think I studied it in chem 102 about 20 years ago...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry

Stoichiometric control is the engineering of a process such that the products are entirely and precisely defined and controlled by virtue of the reactants - quantity, concentration, pressure, temperature, photoillumination, etc.

Before HK/MG became all the rage we were extending to useful of traditional silicon dioxide for the gate dielectric by way of careful control of nitrogen profile (concentration as function of dielectric depth) in addition to its speciation (stoichiometric driven). See this for example.
 

Shmee

Memory & Storage, Graphics Cards Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 13, 2008
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very cool. I got to get my hands on an Ivy-E when i get the money :D