LITIGATION NATION: Lowe’s pays $1.6M settlement over 2×4 labeling Read more at http:/

[MrPickins]

Huh? How is being prepared a mistake? I measured shit out at my house, drew up plans, then went to Home Depot to buy the wood required for the project. I don't need a bunch of scrap, nor do I enjoy making multiple trips to the store, so why would I buy wood before measuring and drawing?

In any case, It only affected the width of the pickets, so I just needed to adjust the spacing.

And now you know to measure the wood and adjust your plans.

Rough woodworking requires flexibility.

 

[Ruptga]

What you people seem incapable of comprehending is that just because you know something doesn't mean every reasonable person does. There are a lot of people out there that have no background in woodworking or construction that would have no way of knowing the true dimensions of a 2x4 short of it being in the fine print. That doesn't mean they're necessarily retarded or willfully ignorant, it just means they're a city slicker.

That's right, I said you people.

 

[Humpy]

Most if not all local jurisdictions required graded and stamped lumber as per building code, and the process of getting the stamp alone would cost the same as pre stamped kiln dry lumber that are dimensional stable as well as dried to the correct level of moisture.

Rough sawn lumber was common before building code came into play, and it tend to warp & twist if the lumber was too green, hence it is difficult to keep the structural dimensional stable. And, rough sawn measurement is true dimension because it is not planed and dried. While kiln dried lumber measurement are measured nominally due to the finishing (plane) and drying process.

The states that have enough trees to support small lumber mills and DIY lumber milling often have provisions to allow for self grading or some other inexpensive method of grading. The International Building Code allows unstamped lumber if it is instead "certified" by a qualified person. Also an engineer can pretty much override all prescribed building code.

There is an interesting, to me anyway, method of house framing using fresh cut green lumber where the structure is framed and weathered in and then left unfinished for a while to lose its moisture content as a complete assembly rather than as individual boards. Some additional bridging and bracing keeps everything relatively straight as it seasons. I have a lot of respect for people who source there own raw materials to build themselves a home.

 

[Gardener]

Lowe's doesn't understand the difference between nominal and dimensional sizing, and someone made them look stupid.

Cost: 1.6 mil.

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

 

[Humpy]

What you people seem incapable of comprehending is that just because you know something doesn't mean every reasonable person does. There are a lot of people out there that have no background in woodworking or construction that would have no way of knowing the true dimensions of a 2x4 short of it being in the fine print. That doesn't mean they're necessarily retarded or willfully ignorant, it just means they're a city slicker.

That's right, I said you people.

If a person can't figure out the true dimension of a 2x4 on their own then what exactly are they going to do with said 2x4?

 

[MrPickins]

This is a weapon the right uses to try to create a fervor over "frivolous lawsuits," which really don't exist; judges throw them out before they get that far. What they're really after is getting lawsuits thrown out that protect consumers from profits run amok with dangerous products. They want those profits protected at all costs, even if it causes damage to the consumer.

Looks pretty real to me:

http://cdnassets.hw.net/8f/fa/17292adc448980b6eab02fa96fcb/lowes-2x4-final-judgement.pdf

 

[Ruptga]

If a person can't figure out the true dimension of a 2x4 on their own then what exactly are they going to do with said 2x4?

Probably nothing; but I never said they wouldn't be able to figure it out, I said they wouldn't know. Most likely, they'd get it home, find that what they're looking at doesn't fit as expected, measure it, then wonder wtf it was labelled as a 2x4 when it's a 1.5x3.5. They'd only figure it out post-purchase because it would never even cross their minds that something would be other than what it's labelled as, because that's the expectation in developed nations.

 

[DrPizza]

What you people seem incapable of comprehending is that just because you know something doesn't mean every reasonable person does. There are a lot of people out there that have no background in woodworking or construction that would have no way of knowing the true dimensions of a 2x4 short of it being in the fine print. That doesn't mean they're necessarily retarded or willfully ignorant, it just means they're a city slicker.

That's right, I said you people.

Citiots is more appropriate.

 

[DrPizza]

The states that have enough trees to support small lumber mills and DIY lumber milling often have provisions to allow for self grading or some other inexpensive method of grading. The International Building Code allows unstamped lumber if it is instead "certified" by a qualified person. Also an engineer can pretty much override all prescribed building code.

I had never heard of that. It doesn't appear to be true in NY. At least, not as far as residential structures are concerned. It's allowed for things like barns & sheds though.

 

[Humpy]

I had never heard of that. It doesn't appear to be true in NY. At least, not as far as residential structures are concerned. It's allowed for things like barns & sheds though.

The IBC requires their recognized standard of grading, or equivalent, for structural lumber under 3" thick. The rule loosens for thicker lumber. I believe that some Universities and other smaller organizations have developed recognized equivalent standards that were available to DIY mill operators. I attempted to find some current examples of this but couldn't. Like so many other things lumber grading is a racket controlled by the most invested parties and I guess there isn't much effort put up any more to work outside the system.

 

[Brainonska511]

This is a weapon the right uses to try to create a fervor over "frivolous lawsuits," which really don't exist; judges throw them out before they get that far. What they're really after is getting lawsuits thrown out that protect consumers from profits run amok with dangerous products. They want those profits protected at all costs, even if it causes damage to the consumer.

Exactly. Just like the McDonald's coffee case, a real, legitimate case, which has been completely taken out of context and twisted to be something frivolous.

But one of the most recent, egregious examples of curtailing consumer rights was the AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion case, where the USSC ruled in a 5-4 decision. In this case, the plantiffs were improperly charged ~$30 and sought to pursue compensation via a class-action lawsuit. The court ruled that the consumers would have to individually fight for their money through binding arbitration that they "agreed" to when they signed up for service instead of being able to band together in a class-action lawsuit. Who's going to seek out binding arbitration over $30? No one. And the company will get away with doing it to hundreds or thousands of people, since individually, it isn't worth fighting.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

Because, we'd have to give arbitrary names to every size of lumber then. What would we call a 1x1, 4x4, 6x6, etc?

The reason it isn't called the "actual dimensions" is because after being cut into 2x4 lengths, the curing processes compacts the wood, reducing the size.

People who don't understand this, are stupid.

You literally don't know what you're talking about. They shaved a half inch off each dimension as it was supposedly unnecessary to the stability of a small building and it increased costs. As someone who has done woodworking and now works in residential construction, don't call other people stupid for not knowing your misinformation.

Older homes had true 2x4s and were made on the same process. Joists also were only 12 inches apart, but residential code now allows 18-24 inches apart. And those old 2x4s are hard as hell while the new joists are almost like butter to drill through.

 

[tcsenter]

Exactly. Just like the McDonald's coffee case, a real, legitimate case, which has been completely taken out of context and twisted to be something frivolous.

Except that it wasn't legitimate and it was frivolous.

 

[halik]

Lumber nothing, I bought a box of nails and it didn't contain a single penny! I was robbed!

 

[lupi]

Don't see a problem her. Things sold be weight or volume must contain the described amount, why should something done by size be different.

 

[highland145]

Don't see a problem her. Things sold be weight or volume must contain the described amount, why should something done by size be different.

Well, duh, because it's always been done this way.



The could have just made it a new regulation and been done but then the state wouldn't have gotten any $$.

 

[slag]

Because, we'd have to give arbitrary names to every size of lumber then. What would we call a 1x1, 4x4, 6x6, etc?

The reason it isn't called the "actual dimensions" is because after being cut into 2x4 lengths, the curing processes compacts the wood, reducing the size.

People who don't understand this, are stupid.

Why not make it 2x4 after its dried and planed instead of before? If this finished product is not 2x4, they shouldn't market it as such to the end consumer.

This has always irked me.

 

[slag]

If a person can't figure out the true dimension of a 2x4 on their own then what exactly are they going to do with said 2x4?

If your odometer says you've driven a mile, do you get out with a tape measure and check to make sure its an actual full mile down to the inch?

Some things should be able to be accepted as fact. If you aren't familiar with wood but want to make a small project and find something called a 2x4, there is a reasonable expectation that it will match the dimensions of its label. For the rest of us, we accept the fact that its not 2x4, but really, it should be labelled correctly so there is no obfuscation.

 

[BoberFett]

If your odometer says you've driven a mile, do you get out with a tape measure and check to make sure its an actual full mile down to the inch?

Some things should be able to be accepted as fact. If you aren't familiar with wood but want to make a small project and find something called a 2x4, there is a reasonable expectation that it will match the dimensions of its label. For the rest of us, we accept the fact that its not 2x4, but really, it should be labelled correctly so there is no obfuscation.

It's not called a 2 inches x 4 inches. It's called a 2x4. If I'm a European in the US and by a 2x4, should I assume it's 2 cm x 4 cm?

 

[MrPickins]

If your odometer says you've driven a mile, do you get out with a tape measure and check to make sure its an actual full mile down to the inch?

Some things should be able to be accepted as fact. If you aren't familiar with wood but want to make a small project and find something called a 2x4, there is a reasonable expectation that it will match the dimensions of its label. For the rest of us, we accept the fact that its not 2x4, but really, it should be labelled correctly so there is no obfuscation.

What about variance in the lumber?

Are e also gonna have to separate out the 1.75x3.75's?

 

[Howard]

By the time I read through the entire thread, I stopped caring about the actual case, but here're my two cents:

I UNDERSTAND that lumber is sold under nominal dimensioning, but it is not superior to actual dimensioning. It's less accurate and serves to confuse customers who are not educated about lumber, and let's face it, why should there be a difference? I'm guessing the way it works is that the width and thicknesses have tolerances, so just post that somewhere and otherwise use the actual dimensions. Plywood and flooring people seem to have their shit together just fine.

Also, imperial units are so cumbersome.

 

[smackababy]

Why not make it 2x4 after its dried and planed instead of before? If this finished product is not 2x4, they shouldn't market it as such to the end consumer.

This has always irked me.

While, it would be easy for to do that with the planing process, the drying process is a bit more tricky, especially with softwood. All 2x4s start off as 2x4 at the mill. Once dried and plane, they lose about half an inch in either, but it isn't precise.

If one is truly interested in very close to 2x4, just buy rough cut hardwood. It will be very close to actually 2x4, although, there might be some slight differences.

 

[Jeff7]

Could LCDs be next?

27" class monitor!


"We want to sell this as a 27" monitor, but we want to make it cheaper. Labeling it incorrectly would be illegal. How can we make it misleading but still legal?"

While, it would be easy for to do that with the planing process, the drying process is a bit more tricky, especially with softwood. All 2x4s start off as 2x4 at the mill. Once dried and plane, they lose about half an inch in either, but it isn't precise.

If one is truly interested in very close to 2x4, just buy rough cut hardwood. It will be very close to actually 2x4, although, there might be some slight differences.

Toothpicks started out as much larger pieces of wood, but they're not specified according to the size of the raw material they came from.

 

[KK]

one reasons lawyers should die.

 

[Humpy]

If anyone is interested in something besides bickering just read this:

History of Yard Lumber Size Standards