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shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
I haven't seen 'Internal Affairs' but 'The Departed' to me was an unremarkable story and a re-hash of every other film involving undercover cops and bent cops. But the final 'fuck you' IMO was the rat at the end: one of the clumsiest pieces of imagery I have probably ever seen in a big-name film; the only way that scene could have been done worse would have been for the rat handler to be inadvertently in-shot.

I can't think of a single moment I enjoyed in that film, which sounds super-harsh, but I'm not saying this film is the worst I've ever seen, I'm saying that some films come along and by right of say their subject matter or unusual style or the big-name director, my expectations are higher, and IMO this film did not deliver in any respect. For some films I'd wonder whether I'm being overly harsh and think "well, that scene was pretty good" and give it another try, but unless someone reveals some bit of wisdom about this film that utterly blows my mind because I completely missed it the first time around, there's no chance on the planet that I'd watch this film ever again.

The story sucks but it has some good performances, particularly Jack Nicholson.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,444
2,084
126
..I am personally not interested in such people, but I do appreciate the point of your comment, nonetheless. :D

I will say, though, that your overall arugment is somewhat strange:

The Matrix is owed by every film after it, for some reason...oh, because "bullet time" and over-done novel camera work that we...saw a lot of for a little while and then never again, really. Maybe some video games.

Everything else in Matrix is an overused trope that was done long before, long long long before the Matrix. Hell, the Thirteenth Floor was released the same year, with the same general ideas, and was a much better film than the stupid Matrix. No one owes that anything, apparently, and yet it didn't contribute some thing that eventually died out.

Citizen Kane however...well, every film actually still does owe everything to it. Just like Giotto gave the world some weird thing called "perspective" and a handful of people like Da Vinci started painting portraits outside of profile for the first time ever, Citizen Kane literally had that same effect for film production, and it remains that critical, essential, unmovable influence. There was no medium space, no long space, no low angles, no high angles, no depth of field...the framing was entirely unique which quickly led to John Ford...I mean, every single film after Citizen Kane, anywhere in the world, essentially owe their photography to Citizen Kane. The film itself....yeah. whatever. It's actually pretty good but it is hard to watch in some ways.

All I'm saying is that every film after it is essentially what it is because of it, and that is important, no matter if you hate watching the thing of not. The Matrix...I mean, who cares, already? Plenty of other films told this story better, before it. The fancy camera tricks didn't even last as long as 3D TVs.
Citizen Kane first. As this was explained to me earlier, i understand why at the time it was considered a masterpiece of cinematography.
Then its cinematography was absorbed by other films, which carried forward its innovations, so much so that they became the standard of filmmaking.
And that is why you dont need to see it. You can see those tools being used in any film, often better. You can pick up any modern film and watch it and you've absorbed all the content of Citizen Kane.

You can walk into a movie today, a weird soundtrack starts playing, and you think "oh yeah, pulp fiction"; but you dont see a dutch shot and think "oh yeah baby, Third Man!" because they have becomes so commonplace that there's a hundred examples prior to reference. (Deutsche angle comes from the earlier Man With A Canera film, but The Third Man is the goto reference for it)

It certainly has a historical significance, but if you want to make films or simply understand the artistry of filmmaking, you dont need it, just like you dont need to study the Model T if you can study the McLaren F1.

Then, The Matrix. And not The Matrix Trilogy.

I was watching this awesome video, which i wont embed, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvyCyyFRpfE
cleverly called "on finally understanding the matrix sequels" ..

"Cleverly" because i would have titled it "i actually do not understand the matrix at all", a rather common theme among matrix viewers; and the matrix is scarily self-referential, you do not understand the message, but you can feel it.

The matrix is not about bullet time. It's not about Neo being called Neo or the other "mystical" names other characters have. It's not a fight of good vs evil, it's not about pseudo-alien robots farming you for electricity, it's not about work, it *is* a metaphor but it's trying to tell you something that is very real: you were born inside a prison, Zin. A prison for your mind.

This prison isnt the storyline's energy farm. It's not the simulation that drives you to compete and work and struggle.

The film spells it out in a crucial scene, the bug removal:
When Trinity tells Neo "you already know what's down that street".
Down that street is the prison for your mind. The prison YOU have created, not by the matrix, not by giant-ass alien robots. If you walk down that street, you already know what is there, it's a prison built of "i must do this" and "i need to do that".

The prison, is trying to live in the future. Hey, responsibility is awesome, man, but freedom is going from "i must do X" to "i have done Y".


When i walked out of the theaters in 1999 (went with friends, because i had originally preferred to spend my little money on Strange Days) i was shocked; i thought "wow the waichovsky penisborn persons have really done it! They have managed to create a visual aid that will explain to the masses what they are doing wrong and how to find happiness - HOW could someone not understand that message" and as always, i was wrong.

Nobody gets it. Matter of fact, ep. 2 and 3 completely ignore this message and just do more wuxia.

See, the film had to sell; once neo is free (after the pill, BEFORE the couch scene) the film ends.
What comes after is just some silly Buck Rogers zappp zoink blast the badguy chinese-style. It's your reward for having sat through the explanation of "why yo dumbass is duumb" and as such, you get a cookie. It also pads out the run time. OR JUST MAYBE it's there to make you feel like YOU are Neo, YOU walk into the phone booth and YOU say "i am going to wake them up".

I dont know how people can not get the message - that you *can* not go down that road, and the only reason you need is simply that you already know what's there; but .. as always ...
 
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DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,444
2,084
126
New post because i didnt really answer you and, i really really wanted to explain why i love The Matrix.
(Im sure there's gotta be a great dr strangelove pun in there)

The Matrix doesnt use - aside from bullettime - any new tools. The ones it does use, are well used. The timing is spot on, sets and costumes are good, that touch of retrofuturism. Unconventional but not revolutionary lighting.

The costumes did influence a lot of works - they brought back the catsuit with a vengeance, and black leather that was once discarded as it doesnt film well, was now back.
Guns guns guns. Others (mainly Leon) did it first but it's matrix that popularized the gun porn.
Bullettime is everywhere; it even spilled out into videogames.
They also have *some* merit of having introduced audiences to plot explanations a tiddy biddy more complex that "it's a giant spider!!".

And of course the massive resurgence of martial arts.

I recently watched Fear Over The City, with Belmondo, that has a great rooftop chase scene, apparently they did it for real. Do you remember what action/fight scenes were like, in those days? Realistic, but also ... ok ok i DO like realistic stuff, but *blushing* a bit of over the top does have its place in modern cinema. I dont think Kill Bill would be what it is if the matrix didnt happen. Im pretty sure a whole bunch of IRL people got into martial arts because of the matrix.

In my OP i mentioned also Pulp Fiction.

PF first off straight up changed every playlist and soundtrack in the world. Music was meant to add to the sentiment on the screen, not ... f i cant find the word i wanted. Lets say, if you had a fight scene, you'd have fight music. Not the word isnt "contrast" .. more like "collaborate". If you had a love scene, you'd have love music. Notable exception Wild At Heart, which almost nobody saw. Man i loved that fulm but WHAT A SHITTY ENDING.

But nothing like having soul train play while people gut each other with swords, and i dont mean incidental music but propah in yo face soundtrack.

PF basically reinvented violence. I know .. people would credit Reservoir Dogs for that but those scenes *focus* on the violence, and "angry tension" has always existed in film. But the casual dispensing of violence which makes you more of a bystander than an active viewer, that is all on PF.

It popularized the word motherfucker.

The non-linear timeline; without any indication that it's non linear. No fades, no "once upon a time" or "i remember ..".

Im sure theres more.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
2WiIzEq.jpg
 

snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
8,048
5,043
146
Citizen Kane first. As this was explained to me earlier, i understand why at the time it was considered a masterpiece of cinematography.
Then its cinematography was absorbed by other films, which carried forward its innovations, so much so that they became the standard of filmmaking.
And that is why you dont need to see it. You can see those tools being used in any film, often better. You can pick up any modern film and watch it and you've absorbed all the content of Citizen Kane.

You can walk into a movie today, a weird soundtrack starts playing, and you think "oh yeah, pulp fiction"; but you dont see a dutch shot and think "oh yeah baby, Third Man!" because they have becomes so commonplace that there's a hundred examples prior to reference. (Deutsche angle comes from the earlier Man With A Canera film, but The Third Man is the goto reference for it)

It certainly has a historical significance, but if you want to make films or simply understand the artistry of filmmaking, you dont need it, just like you dont need to study the Model T if you can study the McLaren F1.

Then, The Matrix. And not The Matrix Trilogy.

I was watching this awesome video, which i wont embed, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvyCyyFRpfE
cleverly called "on finally understanding the matrix sequels" ..

"Cleverly" because i would have titled it "i actually do not understand the matrix at all", a rather common theme among matrix viewers; and the matrix is scarily self-referential, you do not understand the message, but you can feel it.

The matrix is not about bullet time. It's not about Neo being called Neo or the other "mystical" names other characters have. It's not a fight of good vs evil, it's not about pseudo-alien robots farming you for electricity, it's not about work, it *is* a metaphor but it's trying to tell you something that is very real: you were born inside a prison, Zin. A prison for your mind.

This prison isnt the storyline's energy farm. It's not the simulation that drives you to compete and work and struggle.

The film spells it out in a crucial scene, the bug removal:
When Trinity tells Neo "you already know what's down that street".
Down that street is the prison for your mind. The prison YOU have created, not by the matrix, not by giant-ass alien robots. If you walk down that street, you already know what is there, it's a prison built of "i must do this" and "i need to do that".

The prison, is trying to live in the future. Hey, responsibility is awesome, man, but freedom is going from "i must do X" to "i have done Y".


When i walked out of the theaters in 1999 (went with friends, because i had originally preferred to spend my little money on Strange Days) i was shocked; i thought "wow the waichovsky penisborn persons have really done it! They have managed to create a visual aid that will explain to the masses what they are doing wrong and how to find happiness - HOW could someone not understand that message" and as always, i was wrong.

Nobody gets it. Matter of fact, ep. 2 and 3 completely ignore this message and just do more wuxia.

See, the film had to sell; once neo is free (after the pill, BEFORE the couch scene) the film ends.
What comes after is just some silly Buck Rogers zappp zoink blast the badguy chinese-style. It's your reward for having sat through the explanation of "why yo dumbass is duumb" and as such, you get a cookie. It also pads out the run time. OR JUST MAYBE it's there to make you feel like YOU are Neo, YOU walk into the phone booth and YOU say "i am going to wake them up".

I dont know how people can not get the message - that you *can* not go down that road, and the only reason you need is simply that you already know what's there; but .. as always ...

I had probably seen The Matrix at least ten times, but I never truly understood it or had my mind completely blown wide open until I watched it while stoned, but I kind of forget what the message was. I should do that again...
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
Unless they explained all that you just said, sometimes a story is just a story. The piece at the end where he superman land's they actually said they just added because it looked cool. Sure art can be metaphors, but much of what people say is 'meaning' in something is just their own projections. People like to over analyze things and most artists are too proud to say "no, purple haze was just about gettin' high man".
 

dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,543
488
96
I just watched the Big Bang Theory episode about Sheldon's birthday party. He hates the idea of celebrating it because he was bullied mercilessly regarding his birthday when he was young so his friends get together and try to give him a proper party, complete with Adam West (since he was taunted about Batman appearing at his party as a kid).

That has got to be one of the sweetest sitcom episodes I've ever seen. Its touching and funny at the same time. How can you hate something like that?

Its like a big hug to all of us who weren't popular enough to invite the "cool" kids to our birthday party when we were little.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,444
2,084
126
... not HATE. No, it's just, it's just not really good.
Kinda like 2 Broke Girls. The occasional giggle, but eventually the laugh track wears thin, and you see through the jokes.

Try comparing it to ... i mean i don't want to be unfair, but try for a second comparing BBT and for example, Married With Children.
 

dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,543
488
96
Oh, please.

You can't seriously be putting BBT on the same level as two broke Girls. That's the worst show ever made.

And no, I wasn't a huge fan of Married with children. My friends loved it and I watched it with them. It's one of the most formulaic shows ever. A weird, funny formula but formulaic nonetheless.

BBT doesn't reside on the highest level with classics like Seinfeld and Cheers but it's certainly higher up than shows like Friends.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,404
8,039
136
Infernal Affairs (Hong Kong, 2002) 7/10

I thought The Departed (based on this) was much superior. I liked the ending better, and I didn't mind the rat running across the screen at the end. Movie buffs are way too full of themselves. I will give Sam (the chief heavy) credit for being much superior to Nicholson in the Departed, who I don't think inhabited his role. Merging the two female characters into one in The Departed worked well, particularly with the ending they conjured. Mark Wahlberg injected much needed pizzaz. A lot of scenes in Infernal Affairs struck me as lugubrious, in particular all those shots of guys drumming their fingers against objects. What's with that shit? Let us know they are demented and nervous?
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,404
8,039
136
I'm going to have to disagree with you on memento, which I just saw last week, id give it a 7/10. I thought the plot was a little meh.
Didn't work for me. Saw it years ago. Maybe a rewatch and I'd like it more, it's happened, but absent some incentive, I'll let it rest for now.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,444
2,084
126
Oh, please.

You can't seriously be putting BBT on the same level as two broke Girls. That's the worst show ever made.

And no, I wasn't a huge fan of Married with children. My friends loved it and I watched it with them. It's one of the most formulaic shows ever. A weird, funny formula but formulaic nonetheless.

BBT doesn't reside on the highest level with classics like Seinfeld and Cheers but it's certainly higher up than shows like Friends.
Well im not gonna argue over comedy - ive already done enough arguing in PnN.
 

homebrew2ny

Senior member
Jan 3, 2013
611
61
91
1. The Departed was damn near a masterpiece.

2. The Matrix was awesome for the time although it has lost a bit of its shine over the years.

On to a review...

Netflix original series, Maniac:

I was intrigued originally based on the premise and the cast of characters so I gave it a try. Glad I did...

Jonah Hill and Emma Stone give a solid performance in a slightly altered reality (not sure if it is past, present, or future) as both expose and work through their own mental issues.

Although I found it impossible to pinpoint the actual timeline, I was pleasantly surprised to spurts of nostalgia as well as glimpses of a possible future, both rolled in to a immersive and plausible reality.

To be perfectly honest, I found the entire experience akin to a proof of concept production, but it kept me interested and entertained the whole way.

I found the pace perfectly palatable and the ending endearing if not a touch predictable. All in all I was satisfied binging all 10 episodes in a weekend.

I give it a solid 7/10.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,592
7,673
136
How is that Warcraft movie? I just saw that my DVR recorded it.

I know its been the subject of many geek fights. Would a person who's only exposure to the WC universe is playing WoW for a bit many years ago enjoy it at all?

As an former EQ player I despised anything to do with WOW but that was years ago and it's not a bad movie, fun to watch. I would say pretty well done for a game movie.
 
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dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,543
488
96
As an former EQ player I despised anything to do with WOW but that was years ago and it's not a bad movie, fun to watch. I would say pretty well done for a game movie.

I haven't had time to watch it yet but I think I will this weekend.

So I need popcorn and a beer.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,515
29,100
146
Citizen Kane first. As this was explained to me earlier, i understand why at the time it was considered a masterpiece of cinematography.
Then its cinematography was absorbed by other films, which carried forward its innovations, so much so that they became the standard of filmmaking.
And that is why you dont need to see it. You can see those tools being used in any film, often better. You can pick up any modern film and watch it and you've absorbed all the content of Citizen Kane.

You can walk into a movie today, a weird soundtrack starts playing, and you think "oh yeah, pulp fiction"; but you dont see a dutch shot and think "oh yeah baby, Third Man!" because they have becomes so commonplace that there's a hundred examples prior to reference. (Deutsche angle comes from the earlier Man With A Canera film, but The Third Man is the goto reference for it)

It certainly has a historical significance, but if you want to make films or simply understand the artistry of filmmaking, you dont need it, just like you dont need to study the Model T if you can study the McLaren F1.

Then, The Matrix. And not The Matrix Trilogy.

I was watching this awesome video, which i wont embed, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvyCyyFRpfE
cleverly called "on finally understanding the matrix sequels" ..

"Cleverly" because i would have titled it "i actually do not understand the matrix at all", a rather common theme among matrix viewers; and the matrix is scarily self-referential, you do not understand the message, but you can feel it.

The matrix is not about bullet time. It's not about Neo being called Neo or the other "mystical" names other characters have. It's not a fight of good vs evil, it's not about pseudo-alien robots farming you for electricity, it's not about work, it *is* a metaphor but it's trying to tell you something that is very real: you were born inside a prison, Zin. A prison for your mind.

This prison isnt the storyline's energy farm. It's not the simulation that drives you to compete and work and struggle.

The film spells it out in a crucial scene, the bug removal:
When Trinity tells Neo "you already know what's down that street".
Down that street is the prison for your mind. The prison YOU have created, not by the matrix, not by giant-ass alien robots. If you walk down that street, you already know what is there, it's a prison built of "i must do this" and "i need to do that".

The prison, is trying to live in the future. Hey, responsibility is awesome, man, but freedom is going from "i must do X" to "i have done Y".


When i walked out of the theaters in 1999 (went with friends, because i had originally preferred to spend my little money on Strange Days) i was shocked; i thought "wow the waichovsky penisborn persons have really done it! They have managed to create a visual aid that will explain to the masses what they are doing wrong and how to find happiness - HOW could someone not understand that message" and as always, i was wrong.

Nobody gets it. Matter of fact, ep. 2 and 3 completely ignore this message and just do more wuxia.

See, the film had to sell; once neo is free (after the pill, BEFORE the couch scene) the film ends.
What comes after is just some silly Buck Rogers zappp zoink blast the badguy chinese-style. It's your reward for having sat through the explanation of "why yo dumbass is duumb" and as such, you get a cookie. It also pads out the run time. OR JUST MAYBE it's there to make you feel like YOU are Neo, YOU walk into the phone booth and YOU say "i am going to wake them up".

I dont know how people can not get the message - that you *can* not go down that road, and the only reason you need is simply that you already know what's there; but .. as always ...

Oh yeah, I get it. That's why I said other films did the same internal prison thing better, quite notably, The Thirteenth Floor, which was in theaters at the same time of the Matrix. All I was saying is that I don't think it is the plot of the Matrix that carried forward to influence anything--that had been done before, anyway and it was a rehash of a classic philosophical problem, the "brain in a vat" problem, or whatever it is called. Matrix influenced films through camera tricks, which were novel and cool at the time, but really only useful for certain action content, of course just petered out as a fad.

I only can look at The Matrix as a single film, because whatever that was after it....was just pure trash. I think Matrix 2 is one of the most unwatchable films ever made.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,581
9,272
136
I only can look at The Matrix as a single film, because whatever that was after it....was just pure trash. I think Matrix 2 is one of the most unwatchable films ever made.

What did you think of Matrix 3 then? :) For me that's an unwatchable movie, 2 is a braindead action flick but at least it's enjoyable.

Drive (2011)

With a fairly basic plot, in the wrong hands it would have been a cliched and unremarkable mess. As it is, it had decent performances more or less all round, believable characters with more depth, and the film overall had a style and direction that sets it out from being say a Jerry Bruckenheimer action flick. I enjoyed it.
 

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,476
523
126
Venom 7/10. Saw it in IMAX yesterday, and was a little worried with all the negative reviews. I think some people just expect too much from these types of movies. I really like Tom Hardy in most movies, and it did help me to enjoy it better. I also like Riz Ahmed, he did a great job in The Night Of in my opinion. The story was very predictable, with no twists for me. I thought it had some good humor in it with Hardy's character having an internal battle with Venom and trying to be good and bad at the same time. I had some reservations about how this would work without Spider man, because you really cant have Venom without him, but it worked well enough for me. Not a great movie by any means, and will likely not win any awards. I still enjoyed it and glad I went.
 
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