List of positive accomplishments in Iraq by military and leaders

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Pandaren

Originally posted by: hellokeithAre you disputing the points that I made? Does good news frighten the left?

The bad news pisses the hell out of this Libertarian, that is for sure.

56 bullet ridden bodies found in Baghdad, 5 US Troops killed

What do you say to that hellokeith? Iraqis are regularly butchering, shooting, and torturing their own, with US troops caught in the middle.

I don't know what he'd say, but my response is that we simply have some more hard work to do over there.

You want to help? no? You sure? I didnt think so, but I figured I'd ask anyways...

This will be something like talking to a brick wall, I'm sure, but ...

What kind of work do you think we can do? I'll ask one final question, and I want your honest opinion.

Do you think it is possible for the remaining coalition forces to engender an environment which creates a stable, free, and prosperous Iraqi nation, with sectarian violence curtailed? (This would seem to require the Sunni, Shiite, and Kurdish leaders to get on the same page, no?)

 

[Pandaren]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
I don't know what he'd say, but my response is that we simply have some more hard work to do over there.

You want to help? no? You sure? I didnt think so, but I figured I'd ask anyways...

It's not my job, just like it's not my parents' job to pay my bills.

If the Iraqis truly want a free society, they have to find it within themselves. Mommy and daddy holding their hand is not going to get anywhere.

That's why the Kurdish areas are much more peaceful and sucessful than the Sunni Triangle. The Kurds know what they want and are willing to do what it takes to achieve it.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Personally, I think only the insane can still remain even cautiously optimistic about the future of Iraq. The descent into further violence and chaos is as inevitable as politicians lying daily.

The Republicans cannot do much to fail more miserably than they already have.

The Democrats sure can't do better, but the most prudent course of action is to just pack up and leave. Let the Iraqis have the civil war they are fighting so desperately to achieve, let a winner win utterly, and *maybe* then peace will return. Most likely that peace will be won under the boot of a dictator no better than Saddam Hussein, and most likely, that leader will be a fundamentalist, instead of a Secular Baathist.

Do you know what that means? That leader will be one helluva lot more likely to support anti-western terrorist activity than the Baathists ever would have.

As for anything positive about the Iraqi fiasco up to this point? It will all be washed away by the surging violence and civil war, but at least a select group of contractors and their cartels got really rich, right?

all of that is ONLY true if we pull out to soon. Like I said, the American people must be willing to sacrifice for a while longer. Will they suck it up and drive on? Will they continue chugging along until the work is done, even if that takes several more years or a few hundred thousand more troops? (I definately wish to increase our troops in Iraq AND Afghanistan)

We shall see... I doubt it. Patience is no longer an American virtue.

my prediction is that some idiot pulls our troops out too soon and it results in WWIII when Iran creates a massive Shi'ite blob smack dab in the center of the world. but hey, i could be wrong...

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Personally, I think only the insane can still remain even cautiously optimistic about the future of Iraq. The descent into further violence and chaos is as inevitable as politicians lying daily.

The Republicans cannot do much to fail more miserably than they already have.

The Democrats sure can't do better, but the most prudent course of action is to just pack up and leave. Let the Iraqis have the civil war they are fighting so desperately to achieve, let a winner win utterly, and *maybe* then peace will return. Most likely that peace will be won under the boot of a dictator no better than Saddam Hussein, and most likely, that leader will be a fundamentalist, instead of a Secular Baathist.

Do you know what that means? That leader will be one helluva lot more likely to support anti-western terrorist activity than the Baathists ever would have.

As for anything positive about the Iraqi fiasco up to this point? It will all be washed away by the surging violence and civil war, but at least a select group of contractors and their cartels got really rich, right?

all of that is ONLY true if we pull out to soon. Like I said, the American people must be willing to sacrifice for a while longer. Will they suck it up and drive on? Will they continue chugging along until the work is done, even if that takes several more years?

We shall see... I doubt it.

my prediction is that some idiot pulls our troops out too soon and it results in WWIII when Iran creates a massive Shi'ite blob smack dab in the center of the world. but hey, i could be wrong...

Stay the Course...er...Benchmarks, yeah, thats it, benchmarks.
You neglect to mention things are getting worse, and have been for some time.
Its not a question of staying til the work is done. The work is failing.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Personally, I think only the insane can still remain even cautiously optimistic about the future of Iraq. The descent into further violence and chaos is as inevitable as politicians lying daily.

The Republicans cannot do much to fail more miserably than they already have.

The Democrats sure can't do better, but the most prudent course of action is to just pack up and leave. Let the Iraqis have the civil war they are fighting so desperately to achieve, let a winner win utterly, and *maybe* then peace will return. Most likely that peace will be won under the boot of a dictator no better than Saddam Hussein, and most likely, that leader will be a fundamentalist, instead of a Secular Baathist.

Do you know what that means? That leader will be one helluva lot more likely to support anti-western terrorist activity than the Baathists ever would have.

As for anything positive about the Iraqi fiasco up to this point? It will all be washed away by the surging violence and civil war, but at least a select group of contractors and their cartels got really rich, right?

all of that is ONLY true if we pull out to soon. Like I said, the American people must be willing to sacrifice for a while longer. Will they suck it up and drive on? Will they continue chugging along until the work is done, even if that takes several more years?

We shall see... I doubt it.

my prediction is that some idiot pulls our troops out too soon and it results in WWIII when Iran creates a massive Shi'ite blob smack dab in the center of the world. but hey, i could be wrong...

Stay the Course...er...Benchmarks, yeah, thats it, benchmarks.
You neglect to mention things are getting worse, and have been for some time.
Its not a question of staying til the work is done. The work is failing.

my hope is that we recognize that and adjust our tactics as necessary. That will involve more troops and more time... and above all, A NEW SECDEF! I just wish we could vote on a new SECDEF instead of all these useless Senators next week...

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Personally, I think only the insane can still remain even cautiously optimistic about the future of Iraq. The descent into further violence and chaos is as inevitable as politicians lying daily.

The Republicans cannot do much to fail more miserably than they already have.

The Democrats sure can't do better, but the most prudent course of action is to just pack up and leave. Let the Iraqis have the civil war they are fighting so desperately to achieve, let a winner win utterly, and *maybe* then peace will return. Most likely that peace will be won under the boot of a dictator no better than Saddam Hussein, and most likely, that leader will be a fundamentalist, instead of a Secular Baathist.

Do you know what that means? That leader will be one helluva lot more likely to support anti-western terrorist activity than the Baathists ever would have.

As for anything positive about the Iraqi fiasco up to this point? It will all be washed away by the surging violence and civil war, but at least a select group of contractors and their cartels got really rich, right?

all of that is ONLY true if we pull out to soon. Like I said, the American people must be willing to sacrifice for a while longer. Will they suck it up and drive on? Will they continue chugging along until the work is done, even if that takes several more years?

We shall see... I doubt it.

my prediction is that some idiot pulls our troops out too soon and it results in WWIII when Iran creates a massive Shi'ite blob smack dab in the center of the world. but hey, i could be wrong...

What should be done to the idiots who didn't send enough troops over there in the first place? Do you really trust them to fix this bullshit?

Do you support Bush and Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and Perle just becuase they like war and fund your military with 400 billion dollars

BTW, I remember when you first came here you had said that you have studied Islamic Fundamentalism quite a bit.. Could YOU have predicted the violence we see in Iraq today? <<< please be honest.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: hellokeith

Originally posted by: Pens1566
This is quite possibly the dumbest, most naive thread I've ever seen on P&N (including the prof's). OP, we are all dumber for having read this POS thread. I award you a dozen cookies, and may god have mercy on your soul.

Are you disputing the points that I made? Does good news frighten the left?

Nah, but to only point out the good things and not the bad is completely dishonest of you. Instead, you decided to parrot talking points to support your blind political faith. Good day

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: hellokeith
* Brutal Baathist dictatorship overthrown - no more regime sponsored rape rooms
* Saddam captured and on trial - despite all attempts to stop the trial
* Saddam's criminal sons killed
* New Constitution
* Elections - an estimated 8 million people, 60 percent of eligible voters, braved violence and ignored calls for a boycott to go vote
* New Government
* Foreign terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi killed and
* Al Qaeda leadership in Iraq smashed
* Thousands of new Iraqi police trained - new recruits still lining up despite attacks
* Tens of thousands of new Iraqi troops trained

There are certainly a lot of things in Iraq that are not going well.
But everything on this list is correct.

The attitude of the people on this board in regards to Iraq makes me think that if you were alive in WW 2 you would look at D-Day and say "OMG look at home many people were killed" and ignore anything else. That is certainly what we see from some of you here. A list of real accomplishments and yet some of you just want to ignore every one of them.

We (the right) shouldn't be surprised at your response to this list. Just look at every thread about good economic news and how it is meet with cries of doom and gloom for the middle class, or it is all about to fall apart etc etc.

Are you guys capable of doing anything besides complaining? It would be nice to see some constructive criticism instead of outright bitching.

 

[Pandaren]

Originally posted by: palehorse74my prediction is that some idiot pulls our troops out too soon and it results in WWIII when Iran creates a massive Shi'ite blob smack dab in the center of the world. but hey, i could be wrong...

Unlikely, given that Iran is a Persian dominated society. Persians and Arabs have not gotten along well in the past. If Iran decided to attempt to absorb part of Iraq, the result would probably be a worse sectarian bloodbath between Sunni and Shiite, and insurgent attacks against Iranians instead of Americans.

I have patience concerning Afghanistan -- that is a just war.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: hellokeith
* Brutal Baathist dictatorship overthrown - no more regime sponsored rape rooms
* Saddam captured and on trial - despite all attempts to stop the trial
* Saddam's criminal sons killed
* New Constitution
* Elections - an estimated 8 million people, 60 percent of eligible voters, braved violence and ignored calls for a boycott to go vote
* New Government
* Foreign terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi killed and
* Al Qaeda leadership in Iraq smashed
* Thousands of new Iraqi police trained - new recruits still lining up despite attacks
* Tens of thousands of new Iraqi troops trained

There are certainly a lot of things in Iraq that are not going well.
But everything on this list is correct.

The attitude of the people on this board in regards to Iraq makes me think that if you were alive in WW 2 you would look at D-Day and say "OMG look at home many people were killed" and ignore anything else. That is certainly what we see from some of you here. A list of real accomplishments and yet some of you just want to ignore every one of them.

We (the right) shouldn't be surprised at your response to this list. Just look at every thread about good economic news and how it is meet with cries of doom and gloom for the middle class, or it is all about to fall apart etc etc.

Are you guys capable of doing anything besides complaining? It would be nice to see some constructive criticism instead of outright bitching.

Have those in charge done anything to FIX the problem? That is why we complain.. Rumsfeld = still in command = need to keep complaining = you need to stfu about our complaining because your leaders fvcked it up yet their is no accountability

 

[Pandaren]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The attitude of the people on this board in regards to Iraq makes me think that if you were alive in WW 2 you would look at D-Day and say "OMG look at home many people were killed" and ignore anything else. That is certainly what we see from some of you here. A list of real accomplishments and yet some of you just want to ignore every one of them.

That is wrong.

WWII was a cut-and-dried fight against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. The freedom of Western civilization was at stake, and the terrible cost was worth it.

 

[trenchfoot]

Have you ever considered that your leadership .. non-military - but telling the military what to do.. might have wanted Iraq to spiral into chaos and terror so they wouldn't have to leave?

i don't mind politicians telling the military what to do. it's their job.

but like every arrogant micromanaging boss who is obsessively driven by a chest full of deeply hidden insecurities, rumsfeld has committed the most grievous of management sins by also telling the military how to do their jobs, in the most minute detail as he is possibly capable of.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: hellokeith
* Brutal Baathist dictatorship overthrown - no more regime sponsored rape rooms
* Saddam captured and on trial - despite all attempts to stop the trial
* Saddam's criminal sons killed
* New Constitution
* Elections - an estimated 8 million people, 60 percent of eligible voters, braved violence and ignored calls for a boycott to go vote
* New Government
* Foreign terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi killed and
* Al Qaeda leadership in Iraq smashed
* Thousands of new Iraqi police trained - new recruits still lining up despite attacks
* Tens of thousands of new Iraqi troops trained

There are certainly a lot of things in Iraq that are not going well.
But everything on this list is correct.

The attitude of the people on this board in regards to Iraq makes me think that if you were alive in WW 2 you would look at D-Day and say "OMG look at home many people were killed" and ignore anything else. That is certainly what we see from some of you here. A list of real accomplishments and yet some of you just want to ignore every one of them.

We (the right) shouldn't be surprised at your response to this list. Just look at every thread about good economic news and how it is meet with cries of doom and gloom for the middle class, or it is all about to fall apart etc etc.

Are you guys capable of doing anything besides complaining? It would be nice to see some constructive criticism instead of outright bitching.

Comparing Iraq to WWII is about as absurd as comparing dictator X (pick your favorite) to Hitler. Creating analogies that don't fit but seek to simply things to fit an agenda seem to be a favorite amongst those who don't care to get to the heart of an issue... not saying that you are one of these people, necessarily.

 

[Pandaren]

Just a final thought -- Americans are willing to fight and sacrifice for just causes and core principles.

Did anyone ever stop to wonder why nobody complains about casualties and cost in Afghanistan? It's because that war is about a just cause. Afghanistan was harboring terrorists that attacked the United States, and had a hostile government that aided and abetted those terrorists. The fight in Afghanistan is a fight against those who attacked on 9/11.

Iraq on the other hand is a fool's blunder of choice.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: techs
Stay the Course...er...Benchmarks, yeah, thats it, benchmarks.
You neglect to mention things are getting worse, and have been for some time.
Its not a question of staying til the work is done. The work is failing.

Actually there has been a drop off in violence since Ramadan ended. (So much for the idea of a holy month.)

But it makes sense. Since Ramadan is a holy month people think more about their beliefs and therefore are easier to enflame into action, which results in violence. (So much for the religion of peace.)

It is sort of like watching the lefts reaction as we get closer to the election. The closer we get the more they freak out and get angry over every little story.

There were surges of violence before every Iraq election. It is obvious that we are seeing the same thing now. The anti-government and anti-freedom forces are doing everything they can to break the will of the American people.

I am curious, are any of you Democrats embarrassed that the terrorists would rather have you in power than the Republicans?

 

[dahunan]

This guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Perle
This guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wolfowitz << now PRESIDENT OF WORLD BANK .. told us that Iraq would pay for itself and only cost us about 2 or 3 billion .. yes.. not HUNDREDS .. just 2 or 3 total

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: hellokeith
* Brutal Baathist dictatorship overthrown - no more regime sponsored rape rooms
* Saddam captured and on trial - despite all attempts to stop the trial
* Saddam's criminal sons killed
* New Constitution
* Elections - an estimated 8 million people, 60 percent of eligible voters, braved violence and ignored calls for a boycott to go vote
* New Government
* Foreign terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi killed and
* Al Qaeda leadership in Iraq smashed
* Thousands of new Iraqi police trained - new recruits still lining up despite attacks
* Tens of thousands of new Iraqi troops trained

It is undeniable that the US+Iraq relationship is strong and making significant progress.

Other accomplishments: education, health, water & sanitation, electricity, transportation, and telecommunications

Funny, if any of those reasons were given for selling the war to the American Public they would have never have agreed to the invasion in nthe first place. Regarding smashing Al Qaeda, I think our invasion has done more for their recruitment effort than anything they could have done and besides, the presence of Al Qaeda wasn't much more than an outpost in Kurd controlled Iraq before the invasion.

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
*WMD (you know, the supposed reason we prosecuted this war in the first place?) not found
*3,000 dead GIs and counting in exchange for not ONE mobile lab
*October deadliest month ever for Iraqis as well as American solders
*Have provided a training ground for terrorists with live fire targets, U.S. solders
*Irreparable loss of respect and standing with enemies and allies alike, even 2-bit commie dictators can thumb their nose at the U.S. with impunity....
*Iraqi President preventing U.S. troops from even trying to stop some of the violence
*In most parts of the country they get 4-6 hours of electricity per day, whereas under Saddam is was closer to 24/7
*Death squads swarm whole neighborhoods, killing indiscriminately, later dumping the mutilated bodies everywhere
*The blundering of post war Iraq has emboldened North Korea and Iran, pushing us ever nearer to catastrophe.

Your a powerful force in the Leftist Disinformation Machine.

Under a year for nukes

And lets not even go into the UN Inspection games of Peek-A-Boo and Hide'n Go Seek.

The Left sure has a hard time taking a firm stand dont they?

Thanks, but the word you are meaning to use is "you're", as in, you are.

As for your pathetic attempt to revise history, you fail miserably. You see, there were a lot of people paying attention.

 

[tomywishbone]

Brutal Baathist dictatorship overthrown - no more regime sponsored rape rooms
* Saddam captured and on trial - despite all attempts to stop the trial
* Saddam's criminal sons killed
* New Constitution
* Elections - an estimated 8 million people, 60 percent of eligible voters, braved violence and ignored calls for a boycott to go vote
* New Government
* Foreign terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi killed and
* Al Qaeda leadership in Iraq smashed
* Thousands of new Iraqi police trained - new recruits still lining up despite attacks
* Tens of thousands of new Iraqi troops trained

It is undeniable that the US+Iraq relationship is strong and making significant progress.
---------------------------------------------------

:laugh::laugh: Mission accomplished.

 

[Pandaren]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The anti-government and anti-freedom forces are doing everything they can to break the will of the American people.

I am curious, are any of you Democrats embarrassed that the terrorists would rather have you in power than the Republicans?

The will of the American people is tied to how just a cause is. Did you read my post about Afghanistan? People get shot and blown up there too -- but that's a fight we have to fight. That's a sacrifice worth making.

This Libertarian thinks that the terrorists would rather have Republicans in power. Republicans give the terrorists more propoganda trash to spread around.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Pandaren

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The attitude of the people on this board in regards to Iraq makes me think that if you were alive in WW 2 you would look at D-Day and say "OMG look at home many people were killed" and ignore anything else. That is certainly what we see from some of you here. A list of real accomplishments and yet some of you just want to ignore every one of them.

That is wrong.

WWII was a cut-and-dried fight against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. The freedom of Western civilization was at stake, and the terrible cost was worth it.

The same thing is at stake right now, and the terrible price we are paying is still worth it. The evil we are facing today makes Hitler and Imperialist Japan look like a couple of Girl Scouts.

This war may not be as "cut-and-dried," but trust me, we are certainly playing for the same high stakes; if not higher!

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Pandaren
Just a final thought -- Americans are willing to fight and sacrifice for just causes and core principles.

Did anyone ever stop to wonder why nobody complains about casualties and cost in Afghanistan? It's because that war is about a just cause. Afghanistan was harboring terrorists that attacked the United States, and had a hostile government that aided and abetted those terrorists. The fight in Afghanistan is a fight against those who attacked on 9/11.

Iraq on the other hand is a fool's blunder of choice.

Could it also be that the death toll in Afghanistan is virtually zero, especially compared to Iraq.
I have no doubt that if we had no troops in Iraq there would be people on the left complaining about Afghanistan as well. But since Iraq is such an easy target why bother with Afghanistan?

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Pandaren
Just a final thought -- Americans are willing to fight and sacrifice for just causes and core principles.

Did anyone ever stop to wonder why nobody complains about casualties and cost in Afghanistan? It's because that war is about a just cause. Afghanistan was harboring terrorists that attacked the United States, and had a hostile government that aided and abetted those terrorists. The fight in Afghanistan is a fight against those who attacked on 9/11.

Iraq on the other hand is a fool's blunder of choice.

Could it also be that the death toll in Afghanistan is virtually zero, especially compared to Iraq.
I have no doubt that if we had no troops in Iraq there would be people on the left complaining about Afghanistan as well. But since Iraq is such an easy target why bother with Afghanistan?

Really.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: jman19
Comparing Iraq to WWII is about as absurd as comparing dictator X (pick your favorite) to Hitler. Creating analogies that don't fit but seek to simply things to fit an agenda seem to be a favorite amongst those who don't care to get to the heart of an issue... not saying that you are one of these people, necessarily.

I learned that technique from watching the left compare Iraq to Vietnam since the day we crossed the boarder.

And I was not comparing the two wars, I was pointing out how all the left does is focus on the body count and NOTHING else.

You do not win wars via a body count.

If we do end up leaving and losing it will be Vietnam 2 in a sense that our soldiers have not lost ONE engagement with the enemy since the war started. Even al-Qaeda admits that 4,000 foreign fighters have been killed by us in Iraq. The Pentagon claims that more than 50,000 Iraqi insurgents have been killed or arrested, and that was just during a seven month period in 2005.

The ONLY way we loss in Iraq is if we leave.

 

[fskimospy]

Actually ProfJohn, Al-Qaeda would almost certainly rather have the Republicans in power then the Democrats.

All partisan bickering aside, OBL's stated objective was/is to attack the US as much as possible to 1.) Show that the US was not as strong as everyone thought, and 2.) To provoke the US into a disproportionate response/attack on a Muslim nation. He figured (correctly) that this would foster the impression of another crusade by the christian world to attack islam.

(The fact that large segments of our population think it is exactly that is... depressing.)

As Republicans today (in a very general sense) tend to be more willing and interested in resorting to military solutions to problems then Democrats are, it only makes sense that he would prefer the Republicans. The more we attack muslim nations, the harder we clamp down on iraq, and the more places we bomb... the happier he gets. Iraq was like Christmas, New Years, Ramadan, and f'ing Kwanzaa all wrapped into one for him.