Linux DE's just aren't ready yet

[BigToque]

I made the switch from Windows to FreeBSD and stuck with it for over a year. It was fun and exciting to use as a desktop system. It definitely had some issues you needed to work around, but it worked well.

When I got my laptop, FreeBSD was no longer an option. Not that it couldn't work at all, but they're quite behind in terms of the more modern consumer oriented hardware. I made the switch to Linux. I chose Ubuntu because they actually had a commercial offering for my laptop (XPS 15z), so for the most part everything worked. Definitely a few quirks, but again, nothing impossible to work around.

Then I went off to medical school with nothing but Ubuntu loaded to see how it could hold up in the non-testbed environment that was my house. The results were quite mixed. The more I used the system, the more I could see some of the faults. The thing that is the biggest problem for me is just the overall polish of the desktop environments. I have no doubt that the underlying components of the system (the kernel, the GNU OS, and the software that makes everything play nice) is solid, but it's so much of the user facing stuff that really brings the rest of the system down.

I'm pretty technical, and having used FreeBSD and a number of different Linux Distros for quite a few years, I'm comfortable enough that I can fix things and attempt to figure out why something might not be working. The problem is, I generally spend more time administering my system than actually using it, and since I have almost zero time to be mucking around with things because school is so hectic, I had to move back to Windows.

Is the polish seen in Windows and OS X limited to companies that can provide billions of dollars in support? With the direction Ubuntu is headed, I really don't want to stick with them, but when I switch to other Distros and other DE's, the system becomes even more difficult to use because I have to do even more mucking around.

Anyway, I'm not saying anything new, or anything really constructive. Just my random Sunday morning thoughts before I jump into some physiology. I still dual-boot with Ubuntu, and keep a bunch of VM's going so I can keep learning and hoping I can find something that I can stick with.

 

[lxskllr]

What's the issue? I've found DEs to be generally on par with Windows, and I can do more with GNU/Linux's flexibility. Some DEs have the occasional glitch, but that's usually on the smaller packages. Gnome, Unity, KDE, Xfce... have been pretty much flawless for me. I don't spend any time messing with them.

 

[Jodell88]

Weird, Gnome just works for me. *shrugs*

 

[theevilsharpie]

I also haven't really had any issues with Linux DE's. All of the one's that I've used have worked well enough, and other than perhaps KDE, I haven't had to spend any more time tweaking a Linux DE than I would Windows.

 

[ControlD]

I don't really see the problem either. I am running KDE 4.10.1 and I find the overall experience to be more "polished" than my OS X system (Snow Leopard).

 

[Red Squirrel]

I noticed the same too, it's getting better but still needs lot of work. Even simple things like drag and drop are not really fully implimented. There's lot of places where it does not work, such as dragging an email attachment from the client to the desktop. And when it does work, icons seem to default to the left most monitor top left corner, rather than where it was dragged.

Multi monitor is also very poorly done in Linux in general, you can only have two in one X session as it can't span across multiple video cards without using xinerama, which sucks as it treats all monitors as one and that comes with it's own issues especially full screen stuff. Something like trying to play a full screen game, all hell breaks loose as it tries to use both monitors then shifts all over and overall craps out (even without xinerama). Also I don't know how many times I've had to rearrange my icons because they seem to randomly all shift after certain events such as a full screen game/program being launched. Though, to be fair, this sometimes happens in Windows too.

It's good for something done by people on their spare time, I'll give them that, but yes it does still need more work before it can be on par with Windows.

The new "metro like" Gnome interface is also pretty terrible, but the good thing with Linux is at least you have choice and can change it. People who like it still get it, people who don't can change it. With windows you are forced to take it up the ass. They could disable the mouse if they wanted to, and they'd still sell millions of copies. They don't really care what people think.

 

[Jodell88]

I noticed the same too, it's getting better but still needs lot of work. Even simple things like drag and drop are not really fully implimented. There's lot of places where it does not work, such as dragging an email attachment from the client to the desktop. And when it does work, icons seem to default to the left most monitor top left corner, rather than where it was dragged.

I'm feeling like coming across as a dick but I won't. Gnome does everything you want here.

The new "metro like" Gnome interface is also pretty terrible, but the good thing with Linux is at least you have choice and can change it. People who like it still get it, people who don't can change it. With windows you are forced to take it up the ass. They could disable the mouse if they wanted to, and they'd still sell millions of copies. They don't really care what people think.

Gnome is not Metro like at all. There aren't any tiles in Gnome. They wanted to change the way window management works and they succeeded IMO. Also, Gnome works for touch, keyboard, and mouse quickly and easily.

 

[tuxberg]

The problem is, I generally spend more time administering my system than actually using it, and since I have almost zero time to be mucking around with things because school is so hectic, I had to move back to Windows.

I don't have much experience with the mucking of late. I did utilize a lot of windows in my engineering school days, but that was due to the fact I had to use a lot of proprietary software designed for windows and not because Linux was too much trouble.

It is true that some distros are a lot more stable and/or polished than others, but in general an LTS of most any major distro should be fine, depending on the hardware you have and the software you need.

 

[TSDible]

I would also like to know specifics...

I've tried multiple DE now, and they all really work well. Just a matter of finding the one you want to stick with.

Give some examples of problems you are having.

 

[BigToque]

I would also like to know specifics...

I've tried multiple DE now, and they all really work well. Just a matter of finding the one you want to stick with.

Give some examples of problems you are having.

1. Booting into the GUI and seeing error messages saying the screen is in "low graphics mode" when it isn't, and when you click the "ok" box, the system essentially hangs.
2. Network connection manager randomly stops working and you can't connect to the network again until you reboot even when the connection is working fine.
3. Random programs crashing
4. Xorg crashing
5. Libre Office not displaying Power Point files correctly
6. Multi-touch mouse touch pad missing features

These are just a few things off the top of my head, there are more, I just can't think of them at the moment. Most are probably minor things in a testbed environment, but I'm in medical school and I don't have time to screw around looking for solutions to these kinds of problems. When it comes to end users, the software either works or it doesn't. In my case, even though I'm technically capable of dealing with most of the problems that I come across, for me, this is an example of "it doesn't work". It's close, but definitely not there yet. This is using Ubuntu 12.10 that has a kernel specifically for my laptop.

Updating software is wonderfully easy though.

 

[Jodell88]

It could also just be Ubuntu giving you problems.

Oh, and I won't put Libreoffice in there since it there is a windows version as well.

 

[lxskllr]

1. Booting into the GUI and seeing error messages saying the screen is in "low graphics mode" when it isn't, and when you click the "ok" box, the system essentially hangs.
2. Network connection manager randomly stops working and you can't connect to the network again until you reboot even when the connection is working fine.
3. Random programs crashing
4. Xorg crashing
5. Libre Office not displaying Power Point files correctly
6. Multi-touch mouse touch pad missing features

That's unfortunate. I've never had chronic problems like that. I'd be inclined to blame Dell. It sounds like they either botched the install, or used hardware that wasn't completely compatible.

The only complaint that doesn't look valid to me is the LibreOffice one. While it's nice that it generally works with MS software, that should be considered a bonus, and perfect compatibility shouldn't be expected.

 

[TSDible]

Most of those things are not DE issues...

1-4 seem like some other type of problem.

5 is a Libre Office/Microsoft Office problem. You can still install MS powerpoint if you really need it.

6. Which touch pad? and which features? I did have to change a configuration file to make mine do vertical scrolling using the edge.

Personally, I found myself using linux less and less. Until finally, I made Linux my primary OS, and I run windows in a virtual machine for a very few tasks.

 

[HeXen]

The new "metro like" Gnome interface is also pretty terrible, but the good thing with Linux is at least you have choice and can change it. People who like it still get it, people who don't can change it. With windows you are forced to take it up the ass. They could disable the mouse if they wanted to, and they'd still sell millions of copies. They don't really care what people think.

Gnome 3 is actually my favorite. I found it very easy on the eyes and very fast to just bump the corner and swap apps, i found it faster and more appealing than Metro overall and doesn't feel like a split personality like Metro and desktop does in Windows 8 as Gnome 3 all flows together and keeps the theme very well with modern icons..etc to boot.

My issues with Linux are mainly the lack of what i would call modern apps as you can't do some things like activate and properly manage Ipads since Itunes doesn't function even in WINE, not much for Netflix support...etc. Many apps look very antiquated, sometimes with very basic features. Specific apps require certain repositories or maybe hard to find on your own unless someone points it out. Basically it's a lack of commercial development support.

My second gripe has always been overuse and need of the Terminal. It got old to sudo apt this and that and google around to find commands as i havn't cared about learning commands since the Tandy TRS-80 computers.

 

[lxskllr]

My second gripe has always been overuse and need of the Terminal. It got old to sudo apt this and that and google around to find commands as i havn't cared about learning commands since the Tandy TRS-80 computers.

I very seldom use the terminal, and I'm confident I could go without it at all if I wanted to. You see terminal commands on the web because it's the most efficient way of communicating information. Just copy/paste(see my thread lower in this forum) into a terminal, and go. That's in contrast to several screenshots showing the steps, or clumsy text instructions for operating a gui.

 

[HeXen]

I very seldom use the terminal, and I'm confident I could go without it at all if I wanted to. You see terminal commands on the web because it's the most efficient way of communicating information. Just copy/paste(see my thread lower in this forum) into a terminal, and go. That's in contrast to several screenshots showing the steps, or clumsy text instructions for operating a gui.

Depends what you are using it for, what problems you run into..etc.
Try having fun with a 580GTX and Ubuntu/Mint..etc due to a nouveau (fake half assed driver imo) serious issue that, at the time no one was able to fix...it took me a few days just to diagnose and find that information after i blamed my USB, corruptions, even my UEFI bios as i spent much time researching all of that crap first. I couldn't even install Linux less it was in 2d mode or whatever they call it.
I copy and pasted probably more than 50 different commands, Then i realized there is little .AAC support and the one that player that did support it must use a different container or something as it wouldnt work in my stereo....i could go on, let's just say those don't make for very fun experiences for people wanting to use it more as an alternative.

I mean it's nothing against Linux distro's themselves, it's just lack of real support outside of "freewriters" plus it can be an easy OS to really screw up. I had to reinstall a few times due to bad Terminal commands, mostly lack of insight or knowledge that a certain file would conflict or other reason, user error yes, but it's the growing pains of it for novice users or Windows people cause even with a basic guide book from the library, it can be iffy to get into depending on the user and what they expect or want to do.

 

[BigToque]

Most of those things are not DE issues...

1-4 seem like some other type of problem.

5 is a Libre Office/Microsoft Office problem. You can still install MS powerpoint if you really need it.

6. Which touch pad? and which features? I did have to change a configuration file to make mine do vertical scrolling using the edge.

Personally, I found myself using linux less and less. Until finally, I made Linux my primary OS, and I run windows in a virtual machine for a very few tasks.

As a technical user, I understand what you're saying. I know the problems have to do with LightDM (I think), the fact that the laptop uses optimus, and that the mouse is a Cypress Touchpad. I also know that I shouldn't *expect* MS Office PPT's to look perfect on anything other than MS Office.

As an end user though, are distinctions other than "it doesn't work" really necessary? The point is that everything just works with Windows (for the most part). I haven't been able to get that experience with Linux (yet).

 

[ControlD]

In the end I would say that the OP (and HeXen) at least gave Linux a shot to see how it would work for them. Not every OS is a perfect fit for every individual and that is perfectly fine. If I had your bad experiences I would probably look elsewhere too.

 

[TSDible]

As a technical user, I understand what you're saying. I know the problems have to do with LightDM (I think), the fact that the laptop uses optimus, and that the mouse is a Cypress Touchpad. I also know that I shouldn't *expect* MS Office PPT's to look perfect on anything other than MS Office.

As an end user though, are distinctions other than "it doesn't work" really necessary? The point is that everything just works with Windows (for the most part). I haven't been able to get that experience with Linux (yet).

First...

I meant that I found myself using "Windows" less and less... LOL.

I see what you are saying as well. But I don't think that 1-4 are normal problems. There is something else going on there. It would be just as unfair to say that Windows was not ready for prime time because it crashed all the time due to some driver issue. That isn't Window's fault.

Have you considered trying something other than FreeBSD? I haven't found the BSDs to be the most user friendly by any means.

I would personally give an Ubuntu variant a spin. I like Mint, but there are plenty to try.

 

[tuxberg]

From the sound of it, you realize (OP) that these issues were mostly hardware related and most likely caused by your choice of distro. Also proprietary software requirements are -the- reason you can't escape windows. Hence the problem with office. I don't think that's fairly attributable to Linux or a distro though.

While I do find it somewhat amazing a technical user would want to disavow the command line for GUI (especially one who fancied using BSD, my god that's masochism), but if you want an easy install with as little hardware related issues as possible and the most GUI then you need to give Mint or Fundutu a try.

If your hardware doesn't play well with MINT and you can't troubleshoot it, then you may as well give up on running linux with that hardware.

 

[Eureka]

Linux has definitely evolved over the ages. I'm running Ubuntu 12.10 on my EEE PC 900 (remember that dinosaur?) and it's given me the least problems out of any OS I've installed on this stupid thing.

However, to say that Linux (GNOME, or Unity now, in my experience) is fully up to par with Windows or OSX is a bit disingenous. While Unity is nice and very well updated, you just can't beat millions of R&D funding with who knows how many hours of testing. There's a bit more polish with the bigger companies but Linux does a fine job keeping up in terms of functionality. It's definitely buggier but it's much more lightweight compared to the big guys. Also, you have to realize it's not simply because it's Linux, but because there are less developers for Linux in general (almost every thing has a Windows driver/library, there's a huge amount of support for OSX, but not so much for Linux).

As to changing distros... that's the biggest issue going from Windows. When you install Windows, you get Windows. When you install OSX, you get OSX. When you install Linux... well, you have about a thousand distros you could install. It's both a strength and a weakness.

The one thing, however, that made the biggest change was the fonts in Linux. Ubuntu 8 (the last I used) was an eyesore in terms of fonts. Ubuntu 12 fonts seems a bit more.. polished.

 

[FrankRamiro]

Let me give my cheap 2 cents, i feel much more safe on Linux as concern virus malware and other stuff, then with any win.os
i have some glitches but it does the job i need,i use my Linux mint mate to watch live hd streaming on line in some dubious site that i dare not use my other win OS systems cause i feel safer with Linux,i watch my Linux opennig and download malware virus and crap and my Linux free at all laugh at this bastards that try to inflate all kind of virus on our systems, so long live linux forever

 

[HeXen]

In the end I would say that the OP (and HeXen) at least gave Linux a shot to see how it would work for them. Not every OS is a perfect fit for every individual and that is perfectly fine. If I had your bad experiences I would probably look elsewhere too.

I certainly don't dislike Linux distro's in general, i've always had high hopes that it could turn out like Android which now has a huge commercial development and appeal but for the desktop.

It now has Steam, which is huge however it's slim pickings and i just no longer foresee it being anything more than it currently is as far as universal usability or rather to say, the ability to use Linux soley without a Windows or OSX computer.
Certainly for the average home and consumer, you still have to keep Windows or OSX around for certain services, hardware and entertainment which is disappointing to me

 

[ControlD]

I certainly don't dislike Linux distro's in general, i've always had high hopes that it could turn out like Android which now has a huge commercial development and appeal but for the desktop.

It now has Steam, which is huge however it's slim pickings and i just no longer foresee it being anything more than it currently is as far as universal usability or rather to say, the ability to use Linux soley without a Windows or OSX computer.
Certainly for the average home and consumer, you still have to keep Windows or OSX around for certain services, hardware and entertainment which is disappointing to me

I can't really disagree with that. I will say that I can use Linux for everything I need (at home, work has to be Windows for sure) except for playing AAA gaming titles and connecting to my iPhone. The iPhone will be gone in a couple of months so that problem with be solved. Pretty much everything but gaming I can do on Linux these days, either natively (90%) or through Wine.

Still, I find that I need to keep my system as a dual boot setup because I am not willing to give up playing some of the latest games. I do play a lot of Indie titles and luckily those developers have been much more open to making Linux ports so maybe there is still some hope.

 

[pauldun170]

I despise having to do a new Linux install.
Why the hell so I need to hit google to figure out how to add a network printer. After using the add printer uitlity (Mint 14, Cinammon) I get a borderline useless error message. Then I have to research why.
Oh...the preinstalled package for adding printer is busted...you need to do it command line.

So what took 10 seconds on every other pc in the house has now turn into 15 minutes of wasted time.

Lets set my laptop up to play some music off of a shared drive...
After finally connecting up (heaven forbid I could just browse for it) I select some music and...ok guess I play in the default garbage music player...
After about 15 minutes, laptop screen goes into power saver I decide to change it up a bit. Oh would you look at that, lost wireless connection. Its as if the wireless card wanted to share the power saver love fest with the display.

Screw this...I'll just listen to a few albums of youtube playlists using chrome. Hey look at all the lovely specs on youtube videos using chrome.
Back to google..
Ok have to switch to firefox.
All bouncing around in inconsistent UI

Its just constant little nonsense taking me away from what I'm trying to do.

Well not for long at least since Mint eats away at battery life way faster than when I had Windows 7 on this thing.

Years ago, I had the patience for this nonsense. I had a Redhat box that was tweaked to perfection and when that disappeared into fedora land I eventual switched to Ubuntu, which also worked well after major time and effort getting everything tweaked with hardware config and software.

In addition to this laptop with Mint, I have Ubuntu 12.04 and a Fedora 17 install.
I wish I had the patience to find all the work arounds,
Each one, similar B.S.

sorry just venting