Lime Wire founder on copyright law: 'I was wrong'

Pardus

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2000
8,197
21
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Article

NEW YORK--Lawyers representing the four largest music labels tried to convey a message in court here today: Lime Wire founder Mark Gorton was so determined to help people pirate songs that he disregarded copyright law, artists' rights, and even the Supreme Court.

And eventually, Gorton conceded.

The best that he could offer for an excuse was that he misread the law. "I was wrong," Gorton told the court. "I didn't think our behavior was inducing [copyright infringement]. I understand that a court has found otherwise."

In numerous exchanges with Glenn Pomerantz, the labels' lead attorney, Gorton acknowledged knowing that LimeWire was being used to swap songs without paying for them by a "large percentage" of users. Despite being aware of the piracy, Gorton said he refused to shut down the service.
"I was wrong. I didn't think our behavior was inducing (copyright infringement). I understand that a court has found otherwise."
--Mark Gorton

The copyright case brought in 2006 against Lime Wire and Gorton by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA)--the record companies' trade group--is in the final stages. A year ago, U.S. District Judge Kimba Wood found Gorton liable for inducing mass copyright infringement. Last October, Wood ordered that Lime Wire's peer-to-peer service, LimeWire, which Gorton today acknowledged was used by millions of people to pirate perhaps billions of songs, be shut down.

It was the court that determined Gorton would pay but a jury is now tasked with deciding the amount, which can be anywhere between $7 million and $1.4 billion. Not only could a damages award mean a big payday for the labels, but it will also serve to make an example of Gorton.

With Gorton, 44, having already been found liable, the record labels are operating with a big advantage, sort of the courtroom equivalent of a penalty kick in soccer or free throws in basketball. There's no question of whether Gorton infringed the labels' copyrights. Lawyers for the record companies can now home in on just making it look like he acted with bad intentions. And in court today, Gorton's past comments and e-mails provided the labels with plenty of assistance.

Pomerantz showed a pie chart created by Lime Wire to show how Gorton and his managers classified users into four groups. "Hardcore pirates" made up 25 percent of the service's users. "Morally persuadable" users equaled another 25 percent. "Legally unaware" users were said to be 20 percent of LimeWire's users, and those that "sampled" music were 30 percent.

Lime Wire's managers reported to Gorton that of these groups, the company could expect to convince only 20 percent to pay for music, Pomerantz told the jury.

Pomerantz and the labels don't believe Gorton misread the law. They argued that he knew exactly what he was doing when he refused to cease operations. He told potential investors in 2001 that the service faced significant legal risks and could be sued by the RIAA. And then came the June 2005 Supreme Court ruling in the Grokster case. Grokster was one of the leading file-sharing services and the highest court in the land found in a unanimous decision that Grokster was "unmistakably unlawful."

That sent a message to most of Grokster's competitors. Gorton acknowledged most of his important file-sharing competitors closed down or tried to legalize their operations following the Supreme Court's decision. Gorton predicted prior to the ruling, in a New York Times interview that: "If the Supreme Court says it is illegal to produce this software, LimeWire will cease to exist."

A Supreme Court decision, which Gorton said he read, wasn't the only signal Gorton received that LimeWire was illegal.

Pomerantz showed a letter that was written to Gorton on behalf of the top labels--Universal Music Group, Sony Music Entertainment, Warner Music Group, and EMI Music--soon after the Grokster decision. The record companies spelled out the ways the Grokster decision applied to LimeWire and notified Gorton that they would sue him personally if he didn't "cease and desist."

Nonetheless, Gorton acknowledged, Lime Wire operated as before.

Gorton didn't take them at their word. He said he thought that the labels just wanted him to start trying to convert users to some kind of paying service.

Pomerantz told the jury there were filtering systems and other technologies available that could have helped Gorton and his managers stop some of the file sharing. "There were technologies that you didn't use that would have stopped some of the sharing, but you didn't use those?" Pomerantz asked Gorton.

"No," Gorton replied.

When it came to receiving questions from users about whether LimeWire was legal, Gorton acknowledged ordering employees not to respond such inquiries. He said he didn't want them giving legal advice.

Pomerantz showed the jury some of the e-mails from users.

• "I found my child downloading music and films from your site," wrote one parent on Christmas day in 2005. "Is this legal for my child to do so?"

• "Is LimeWire different from Napster?" wrote another user. "I'm a little afraid people will accuse me of copyright infringement."

Pomerantz summarized the situation this way: "People were trying to do the right thing and LimeWire didn't have an answer."

Notes: RIAA lawyers called Gorton to the stand to start the day and are scheduled to resume questioning of him tomorrow...In the court's gallery were executives for some of the major labels including Thomas Hesse, president of Sony Music Entertainment...Edgar Bronfman Jr., the chairman of Warner Music, is expected to testify on Wednesday...Gorton's lawyers indicated he will soon testify about the money he began putting away into family trusts following the Grokster decision. The RIAA has alleged that this was an attempt by Gorton to hide money in case he was sued. Gorton is expected to testify that he was only interested in managing his estate.
 

Brigandier

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2008
4,394
2
81
Limewire isn't right, but is less wrong then the corrupt and fat RIAA.

In the battle of the lesser of two evils, who wins?

What needs to happen is that people need to change how they view media, and media needs to offer it accordingly. People will always pay for entertainment, but mainstream media puts up a lot of barriers to legal consumption.

The artists need to be rewarded more, and the cost of entry needs to be lowered and changed. Downloading whatever you want for free is not alright, people's jobs are on the line for whatever is made.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,504
566
126
Local Storage is so 2000's...its all about streaming... And yes I pay for that...
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
58,808
9,125
126
I don't understand how it was Limewire's responsibility to police the users of the software. Sounds like the courts were bought off; again...
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
The record labels were and are still wrong. Rather than use new technology to make their product better, they kept to their business model, and product design. They could have easily been shipping far higher quality recordings since the mid-1990s, included better packaging, and bonus features unavailable to mp3 downloaders, which they could have treated as radio listeners who would some day want the real McCoy. When Napster hit, they could have had a product ready to go that would have been 100 times the file size, slowing internet downloads by that very factor.

Instead they opted to retain their business model and use the law stifle a technlogy which is very promising to many more people than illegal file sharers.

With trust laws the way they are, I do not even understand how the record labels are even able to form a trust group such as the RIAA. It's mere existence points to colusion, price fixing, insider trading, and restraint of trade.
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
I don't understand how it was Limewire's responsibility to police the users of the software. Sounds like the courts were bought off; again...

Like Napster, BearShare, EDonkey, and others, Limewire utilized central servers to facilitate traffic. It is not like BT where there is no central repository of files.
 

Brigandier

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2008
4,394
2
81
I don't understand how it was Limewire's responsibility to police the users of the software. Sounds like the courts were bought off; again...

If not limewire, don't you think someone should?

Or is the internet going to be like the wild west forever?

I don't side with RIAA/MPAA etc, but I think they still deserve payment. The simple fact is, not everyone can afford their habits, and there are easy ways to get it for free. The creators still deserve their cut, I think they should resign themselves to scalable profits, so that a poor person can have their computer and use it too. Right now, that is impossible, it's either pony up or bootleg, and look around the world, and see what is chosen, bootleg.

Bootleg American products are huge business, they are present all around the world. I don't see theft, I see lost revenue. Imagine if the corps tiered pricing on overall usage and ability to pay. Each individual download would be super cheap, but offer premium versions. O r give people ondemand access for cheap, but make downloads(which can be DVDs or whatever) for a nominal fee.

You get them coming, and you get them going with that, and you make it so the rest of the world can get a piece of that pie too. Would you rather have 1 billion dollars or 1 billion people giving you nickles on a whim?
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Fuck the RIAA.

I'm sorry, they are in the right in this case.

You don't make a corporation out of illegal activity. Specifically, you don't make a corporation out of illegal activity unless you have a shell corporation to protect yourself behind. :p

I mean... seriously. Let's make an organized business out of piracy, and then let's make sure everyone and their grandmother know exactly what we do.
hmm. Smart choice there, dumbass.

The only ones that can escape legal hell are the ones that are disorganized and open-managed projects.

Point: don't do stupid business shit unless you are willing to expend the effort to establish multiple dummy and shell corporations to hide behind.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
No, the artists deserve payment, not the RIAA/MPAA.

That is the only problem here. The retards who want to make business out of illegal activity should fully own up to their mistakes and the law if they are caught. I don't necessarily have a problem with it, but don't cry when you get busted for your mistakes. But that doesn't mean the organization who honestly does very little to serve their artists, deserve some kind of payday for damages never done to their organizations personally.

but in general - all art-rep groups are not really interested in making their people happy, at least, not anything beyond the level of happiness required to keep them under that group. All a bunch of crocks and frauds, every last one of them. Fuck art-rep groups, be it the RIAA, MPAA, artist unions, art-gallery agents, etc etc etc...
 
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lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
58,808
9,125
126
If not limewire, don't you think someone should?

Or is the internet going to be like the wild west forever?

I don't side with RIAA/MPAA etc, but I think they still deserve payment. The simple fact is, not everyone can afford their habits, and there are easy ways to get it for free. The creators still deserve their cut, I think they should resign themselves to scalable profits, so that a poor person can have their computer and use it too. Right now, that is impossible, it's either pony up or bootleg, and look around the world, and see what is chosen, bootleg.

Bootleg American products are huge business, they are present all around the world. I don't see theft, I see lost revenue. Imagine if the corps tiered pricing on overall usage and ability to pay. Each individual download would be super cheap, but offer premium versions. O r give people ondemand access for cheap, but make downloads(which can be DVDs or whatever) for a nominal fee.

You get them coming, and you get them going with that, and you make it so the rest of the world can get a piece of that pie too. Would you rather have 1 billion dollars or 1 billion people giving you nickles on a whim?

I don't know the specifics of how Limewire was setup. My brief perusal of Wikipedia didn't indicate a central server, but I may very well have overlooked it. Going on the assumption that a software package just works, and it's developer doesn't control how it's used(eg bittorrent), it isn't the developer's problem or responsibility for the end use. The companies can go after 1 user at a time. If that isn't cost effective, maybe they should re-examine how valuable their products are.

Regarding the record companies, and business models, I largely agree with you, but only so far as it concerns the artists.The companies have been exploiting the talents of the musicians for DECADES, and they infringe on the fair use rights of individuals on a daily basis. Add to that the obscene copyright time lengths, I have a hard time coming up with even a single drop of sympathy for them. Pay back's a bitch, and they're getting paid back in spades.
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Stupid ruling IMO, Limewire and its developers are no more responsible for copyright infringement than VCRs and VCR manufacturers. The RIAA has obviously done a good job of swaying the judges in their favor since the 70s, though.
 

JimW1949

Senior member
Mar 22, 2011
244
0
0
I have several hundred record albums which I have purchased over the years. Theses record albums represent several thousand dollars that I have spent buying music. But in recent years the record companies have really ticked me off with their ridiculous whining. Because of that, I have refused to buy any more music, I just listen to the radio, or I listen to the music I already have. I have to wonder how may other people have quit purchasing music because of the stupidity of the recording industry.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
I'm sorry, they are in the right in this case.

You don't make a corporation out of illegal activity. Specifically, you don't make a corporation out of illegal activity unless you have a shell corporation to protect yourself behind. :p

I mean... seriously. Let's make an organized business out of piracy, and then let's make sure everyone and their grandmother know exactly what we do.
hmm. Smart choice there, dumbass.

The only ones that can escape legal hell are the ones that are disorganized and open-managed projects.

Point: don't do stupid business shit unless you are willing to expend the effort to establish multiple dummy and shell corporations to hide behind.

Uhhhh, the RIAA members ARE a criminal organization.

Unless you've been hiding in a cave you'd know they've been found guilty of collusion, and they certainly rip off their artists all the time. Someone downloading a few free MP3s is less of a criminal than any of the major music companies.


JimW, I've also quit buying CDs. Haven't bought one in many years and see no need to do so.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
58,808
9,125
126
I have several hundred record albums which I have purchased over the years. Theses record albums represent several thousand dollars that I have spent buying music. But in recent years the record companies have really ticked me off with their ridiculous whining. Because of that, I have refused to buy any more music, I just listen to the radio, or I listen to the music I already have. I have to wonder how may other people have quit purchasing music because of the stupidity of the recording industry.

I'm in a similar situation. I probably have close to 1,000 albums of physical media, and tens of gigabytes of music I purchased from Emusic. I had to drop my Emusic subscription when money got tight, and now they've turned into another iTunes. You can't redownload the music you've purchased, and prices went up on top of that. I won't join them again, and I pretty much will only buy from independents, directly from the artists. I'll support indie labels, but the big companies, especially Warner and Sony can go fuck themselves.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
The record labels were and are still wrong. Rather than use new technology to make their product better, they kept to their business model, and product design. They could have easily been shipping far higher quality recordings since the mid-1990s, included better packaging, and bonus features unavailable to mp3 downloaders, which they could have treated as radio listeners who would some day want the real McCoy. When Napster hit, they could have had a product ready to go that would have been 100 times the file size, slowing internet downloads by that very factor.

Instead they opted to retain their business model and use the law stifle a technlogy which is very promising to many more people than illegal file sharers.

With trust laws the way they are, I do not even understand how the record labels are even able to form a trust group such as the RIAA. It's mere existence points to colusion, price fixing, insider trading, and restraint of trade.

:confused: What year is this? 1999? My computer says it's 2011, must be broken.

FYI -
Apple has been the number 1 seller of music in the US for several years now
CDs cost less now than they did 15 years ago without adjusting for inflation
You can listen to just about any music streamed for free

Really, you think they haven't changed their business model?

Offering higher-bitrate music to combat MP3s would not have worked. Proof:
- They already offered a format that was superior to MP3s - the popularity of MP3s indicates that people didn't care much about sound quality.
- They offer audio formats that are superior to CDs, and they haven't been very successful