I don't understand all this hesitation to kill. All you're doing is putting bullets in someone (or a group of people) and they die. What's the big deal? I'd be more worried about what I'm gonna have for dinner that night. 
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
How many years experience in such things do you have exactly? Because I have more than a dozen, plus a dozen more of training before that. I have real world experience along with my extensive education...what do you have?
That's what I thought.
Now, to dissect your idiocy.
If I'm in a bad area, yes I react with extreme caution to dicey situations. I will cross the street to avoid possible threats, stop and watch things to assess the possible scenerios, etc. If a 'group of seedy individuals' (as alluded to in the original post) were totally intent on doing harm, it can be fairly obvious. Generally criminals in the group mindset experience feelings of superiority and invincibility, and they display this openly. What I specifically said was that we would watch them to judge their actions, and only if threat was proven would we call the police.
I understand that for many of you reading is at about a 3rd grade level, but you should really try to get at least a general idea of what someone posts before you make yourself look utterly stupid in responding.
To move on; 'group' wasn't defined, and could therefore be only 3 or 4 people. While no one wants to try those odds in melee combat, I've done it before (on quite a few occassions) and am confident in my chances of success providing no weapons become involved. Remember that I've been teaching self-defense for years, and studying it for decades before. I have more than a decade of experience with many years netting me more than 200 fights/physical conflicts. I have more hand to hand experience than most people could possibly imagine, including law enforcement, military and professional fighters.
Drawing my gun on unarmed men (providing the group was small enough), would be illegal and I would face criminal charges for anything that happened thereafter. I can ONLY draw my gun if there's imminent threat of serious harm or death. If the 'group' is 10 grown men (not teens or something) and they have expressed willingness and intent to harm someone, THEN I could draw my weapon and have a reasonable chance to avoid charges...but ONLY then.
Yes, criminals attempt to utilize surprise. I negate that advantage by being always 100% on guard. Period. I have spent my entire life in dangerous jobs where awareness and observation were absolutely required for survival. My instincts and reflexes are honed. Furthermore I have infinitely more experience in combat than 99% of the population.
To respond to your scenerio: It's unlikely that someone would manage to do that unless I was HIGHLY distracted at the time, but for sake of argument let's say it happened that way. I calmly agree to hand over my wallet and (turning my gun side slightly away to keep it concealed) I pass it over...reassuring them the entire time that they will get whatever they want. Since they have no idea I have a gun, it doesn't get stolen (btw, talk about far fetched scenerios, exactly how do these guys in your scenerio suddenly acquire the telepathy needed to ascertain that I'm carrying?). After they depart we retreat to a safe location and contact authorities. It's worth noting, however, that statistically speaking your scenerio almost never occurs. Most robberies (even strongarms) do not begin with a weapon in play. Criminals usually make the demand and then (or concurrently) display that they have a weapon. Few will draw it initially to avoid attention. This provides certain avenues of action not expressly available in your proposed scenerio.
The basic flaw in your post is two-fold: 1 you have no idea what you're talking about with regards to criminal theory and statistics, and 2 you don't know who I am.
It's a terrible failure of modern mankind to assume that reality for everyone is what it is for themselves. This is untrue. People are different, with different skills, abilities, beliefs, and experiences. You'd do well to remember that.
Wow. Modest ego you have there, chief...
First off, congratulations on your extensive history in combat in every possible form, against every possible type of aggressor. You certainly are very clever indeed.
I liked how you expressed scorn on my assumptions, then went straight ahead and made a whole load more assumptions than I ever did. link.
Enough of this silliness.
I agree with you in the way that you should act, but I don't think that it would be the sensible option overall.
I disagree that people about to rob you display it openly, just ask the people who are robbed when in their stopped cars by people on motorbikes. They just want the goods and it's not always all about the 'gangsta' image I'm guessing you're thinking of. It's a rushed, grab and run scenario.
As for the OP's mention of being confronted, surely it's a more sensible option to simply run away from the situation? You don't know if they're armed, going to rob you or want your woman. Standing up to them could very well prove lethal to you, and more likely, your woman.
I know it's all about male pride and a common fantasy being able to stand up to a bunch of thugs and save your little lady, but when it comes down to it, you're outnumbered and effectively fighting for two of you. Granted you claim to have expert combat experience, but amidst a melee, one guy out of sight can easily wound you or your company by surprise. You of all people should know that it's impossible to be in a fight where you are certain to win.
Other reasons why getting out of the situation is better than a confrontation:
-If you lose, your woman will be proper angry with you for being a big-headed ass and not being able to avoid a confrontation in a non-violent manner.
-If you get into a fight, then draw and use weapons, you could be faced with lawsuits, etc afterwards.
-There's every possibility you could shoot an innocent if it comes to a gunfight.
-If you kill someone (innocent or otherwise) you have to live with it.
-You might come out OK but your woman may be hurt/killed.
Safety: if you're already being robbed, your safety was never there to lose.
Sanity: You must be already unstable if one incident causes madness.
Peace: The antonym for peace is war. How can fighting gain peace?
Time: Getting out of the situation will save you the time of fighting, lawsuits and hospital treatment.
Rights: You don't lose your rights, they are breached if anything. But yeah, I agree with you on this one.
Freedom: You're not held captive.
I believe what you're trying to say here is you may lose your integrity, self confidence and sense of security if you succumb to the criminals. I do agree with you in this sense, but I disagree that the wellbeing and health of you and your partner are of such little value that you'd gamble these (and it is a gamble, despite your experience) in order to maintain your values.
Personally, in a real situation where I was faced with a gang who were up for a fight who could well be armed, I'd run. If they followed you'd then have no choice but to stand your ground and fire a couple of shots, but not wait around to kill them all, just run once they've taken cover or whatever. It may sound like a wussy thing to do to gun-loving hyper-ego/e-penis grunts (not necessarily you, Wands: you'll of course know that the #1 lesson taught in any martial arts is to avoid conflict and run before trying to fight), but I personally value my life quite highly, it turns out.
sounds like loic2003 summed up the definition of a "calculated coward". Sometimes it's better to run than to be a statistic.
-=bmacd=-
-=bmacd=-
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
lilcam, when you got your permit, they should have gone over this stuff in the class you took.
I notice the OP lists PN as his state of residence, PN and Texas have reciprocity and knowing the Texas reciprocity requirements, he's taken 2 days of classroom, passed a written test and s real life accuracy test to acquire a permit.
I call BS.
Remember that not all states require a class or test to get your license. I didn't look to see where he was located, just saying in general is all.
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
How many years experience in such things do you have exactly? Because I have more than a dozen, plus a dozen more of training before that. I have real world experience along with my extensive education...what do you have?
That's what I thought.
Now, to dissect your idiocy.
If I'm in a bad area, yes I react with extreme caution to dicey situations. I will cross the street to avoid possible threats, stop and watch things to assess the possible scenerios, etc. If a 'group of seedy individuals' (as alluded to in the original post) were totally intent on doing harm, it can be fairly obvious. Generally criminals in the group mindset experience feelings of superiority and invincibility, and they display this openly. What I specifically said was that we would watch them to judge their actions, and only if threat was proven would we call the police.
I understand that for many of you reading is at about a 3rd grade level, but you should really try to get at least a general idea of what someone posts before you make yourself look utterly stupid in responding.
To move on; 'group' wasn't defined, and could therefore be only 3 or 4 people. While no one wants to try those odds in melee combat, I've done it before (on quite a few occassions) and am confident in my chances of success providing no weapons become involved. Remember that I've been teaching self-defense for years, and studying it for decades before. I have more than a decade of experience with many years netting me more than 200 fights/physical conflicts. I have more hand to hand experience than most people could possibly imagine, including law enforcement, military and professional fighters.
Drawing my gun on unarmed men (providing the group was small enough), would be illegal and I would face criminal charges for anything that happened thereafter. I can ONLY draw my gun if there's imminent threat of serious harm or death. If the 'group' is 10 grown men (not teens or something) and they have expressed willingness and intent to harm someone, THEN I could draw my weapon and have a reasonable chance to avoid charges...but ONLY then.
Yes, criminals attempt to utilize surprise. I negate that advantage by being always 100% on guard. Period. I have spent my entire life in dangerous jobs where awareness and observation were absolutely required for survival. My instincts and reflexes are honed. Furthermore I have infinitely more experience in combat than 99% of the population.
To respond to your scenerio: It's unlikely that someone would manage to do that unless I was HIGHLY distracted at the time, but for sake of argument let's say it happened that way. I calmly agree to hand over my wallet and (turning my gun side slightly away to keep it concealed) I pass it over...reassuring them the entire time that they will get whatever they want. Since they have no idea I have a gun, it doesn't get stolen (btw, talk about far fetched scenerios, exactly how do these guys in your scenerio suddenly acquire the telepathy needed to ascertain that I'm carrying?). After they depart we retreat to a safe location and contact authorities. It's worth noting, however, that statistically speaking your scenerio almost never occurs. Most robberies (even strongarms) do not begin with a weapon in play. Criminals usually make the demand and then (or concurrently) display that they have a weapon. Few will draw it initially to avoid attention. This provides certain avenues of action not expressly available in your proposed scenerio.
The basic flaw in your post is two-fold: 1 you have no idea what you're talking about with regards to criminal theory and statistics, and 2 you don't know who I am.
It's a terrible failure of modern mankind to assume that reality for everyone is what it is for themselves. This is untrue. People are different, with different skills, abilities, beliefs, and experiences. You'd do well to remember that.
I agree. People like us have dangerous jobs and we must always be alert, although I can't say that I've had as many melee confrontations as you, as I seldom ever let it get to that point. My job requires more offense than defense, although I'm given free reign to decide how "offensive" I want to be.
Preyhunter
Golden Member
- Nov 9, 1999
- 1,774
- 12
- 81
To answer the OP's original question...
In the state of Texas (and most likely all other states), any time the Use of Deadly Force is justified, then the Threat of Use of Deadly Force is also justified.
Having stated that, it depends on the situation whether the use of deadly force is justified. You are not guilty of brandishing if the situation warrants use of deadly force.
I'm not making any recommendations here, just stating the facts.
Ch.9 Texas Penal Code
In the state of Texas (and most likely all other states), any time the Use of Deadly Force is justified, then the Threat of Use of Deadly Force is also justified.
Having stated that, it depends on the situation whether the use of deadly force is justified. You are not guilty of brandishing if the situation warrants use of deadly force.
I'm not making any recommendations here, just stating the facts.
Ch.9 Texas Penal Code
Originally posted by: loic2003
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
How many years experience in such things do you have exactly? Because I have more than a dozen, plus a dozen more of training before that. I have real world experience along with my extensive education...what do you have?
That's what I thought.
Now, to dissect your idiocy.
If I'm in a bad area, yes I react with extreme caution to dicey situations. I will cross the street to avoid possible threats, stop and watch things to assess the possible scenerios, etc. If a 'group of seedy individuals' (as alluded to in the original post) were totally intent on doing harm, it can be fairly obvious. Generally criminals in the group mindset experience feelings of superiority and invincibility, and they display this openly. What I specifically said was that we would watch them to judge their actions, and only if threat was proven would we call the police.
I understand that for many of you reading is at about a 3rd grade level, but you should really try to get at least a general idea of what someone posts before you make yourself look utterly stupid in responding.
To move on; 'group' wasn't defined, and could therefore be only 3 or 4 people. While no one wants to try those odds in melee combat, I've done it before (on quite a few occassions) and am confident in my chances of success providing no weapons become involved. Remember that I've been teaching self-defense for years, and studying it for decades before. I have more than a decade of experience with many years netting me more than 200 fights/physical conflicts. I have more hand to hand experience than most people could possibly imagine, including law enforcement, military and professional fighters.
Drawing my gun on unarmed men (providing the group was small enough), would be illegal and I would face criminal charges for anything that happened thereafter. I can ONLY draw my gun if there's imminent threat of serious harm or death. If the 'group' is 10 grown men (not teens or something) and they have expressed willingness and intent to harm someone, THEN I could draw my weapon and have a reasonable chance to avoid charges...but ONLY then.
Yes, criminals attempt to utilize surprise. I negate that advantage by being always 100% on guard. Period. I have spent my entire life in dangerous jobs where awareness and observation were absolutely required for survival. My instincts and reflexes are honed. Furthermore I have infinitely more experience in combat than 99% of the population.
To respond to your scenerio: It's unlikely that someone would manage to do that unless I was HIGHLY distracted at the time, but for sake of argument let's say it happened that way. I calmly agree to hand over my wallet and (turning my gun side slightly away to keep it concealed) I pass it over...reassuring them the entire time that they will get whatever they want. Since they have no idea I have a gun, it doesn't get stolen (btw, talk about far fetched scenerios, exactly how do these guys in your scenerio suddenly acquire the telepathy needed to ascertain that I'm carrying?). After they depart we retreat to a safe location and contact authorities. It's worth noting, however, that statistically speaking your scenerio almost never occurs. Most robberies (even strongarms) do not begin with a weapon in play. Criminals usually make the demand and then (or concurrently) display that they have a weapon. Few will draw it initially to avoid attention. This provides certain avenues of action not expressly available in your proposed scenerio.
The basic flaw in your post is two-fold: 1 you have no idea what you're talking about with regards to criminal theory and statistics, and 2 you don't know who I am.
It's a terrible failure of modern mankind to assume that reality for everyone is what it is for themselves. This is untrue. People are different, with different skills, abilities, beliefs, and experiences. You'd do well to remember that.
Wow. Modest ego you have there, chief...
First off, congratulations on your extensive history in combat in every possible form, against every possible type of aggressor. You certainly are very clever indeed.
I liked how you expressed scorn on my assumptions, then went straight ahead and made a whole load more assumptions than I ever did. link.
Enough of this silliness.
I agree with you in the way that you should act, but I don't think that it would be the sensible option overall.
I disagree that people about to rob you display it openly, just ask the people who are robbed when in their stopped cars by people on motorbikes. They just want the goods and it's not always all about the 'gangsta' image I'm guessing you're thinking of. It's a rushed, grab and run scenario.
As for the OP's mention of being confronted, surely it's a more sensible option to simply run away from the situation? You don't know if they're armed, going to rob you or want your woman. Standing up to them could very well prove lethal to you, and more likely, your woman.
I know it's all about male pride and a common fantasy being able to stand up to a bunch of thugs and save your little lady, but when it comes down to it, you're outnumbered and effectively fighting for two of you. Granted you claim to have expert combat experience, but amidst a melee, one guy out of sight can easily wound you or your company by surprise. You of all people should know that it's impossible to be in a fight where you are certain to win.
Other reasons why getting out of the situation is better than a confrontation:
-If you lose, your woman will be proper angry with you for being a big-headed ass and not being able to avoid a confrontation in a non-violent manner.
-If you get into a fight, then draw and use weapons, you could be faced with lawsuits, etc afterwards.
-There's every possibility you could shoot an innocent if it comes to a gunfight.
-If you kill someone (innocent or otherwise) you have to live with it.
-You might come out OK but your woman may be hurt/killed.
Safety: if you're already being robbed, your safety was never there to lose.
Sanity: You must be already unstable if one incident causes madness.
Peace: The antonym for peace is war. How can fighting gain peace?
Time: Getting out of the situation will save you the time of fighting, lawsuits and hospital treatment.
Rights: You don't lose your rights, they are breached if anything. But yeah, I agree with you on this one.
Freedom: You're not held captive.
I believe what you're trying to say here is you may lose your integrity, self confidence and sense of security if you succumb to the criminals. I do agree with you in this sense, but I disagree that the wellbeing and health of you and your partner are of such little value that you'd gamble these (and it is a gamble, despite your experience) in order to maintain your values.
Personally, in a real situation where I was faced with a gang who were up for a fight who could well be armed, I'd run. If they followed you'd then have no choice but to stand your ground and fire a couple of shots, but not wait around to kill them all, just run once they've taken cover or whatever. It may sound like a wussy thing to do to gun-loving hyper-ego/e-penis grunts (not necessarily you, Wands: you'll of course know that the #1 lesson taught in any martial arts is to avoid conflict and run before trying to fight), but I personally value my life quite highly, it turns out.
I never said I 'wanted' to confront them...but that's what this thread is dealing with. It's presumed, I hope, that you'd do everything possible to avoid confrontation first. I talked about crossing the street, waiting and watching, slow retreat, etc. Those are all fairly safe options. Also there's verbal de-escalation and so on.
The post set the guidelines for the scenerio. We weren't discussing random car-jackings or other such surprise encounters. Groups of aggressors typically behave in the manner I outlined. It's single or at most two that generally take part in 'calculated crimes'. That's not what was discussed. Response to those types of situations is much MUCH different.
I don't think it's sensible to run at all...in fact it's most often lunacy. I'm not willing to bet that I'm a faster runner, have more endurance or that the bad guys don't have distance weapons. I AM willing to be on my combat ability. If I 'run', that implies turning my back and focusing on my retreat...that leaves my rear unprotected, and again, assumes I can run faster and/or farther than them. Also, we talked about my gf with me...I doubt if she could outrun them for any distance, if at all. So 'running away' would mean abandoning her. Not a valid option. No, stay and remain in control as much as possible. A slow backing away, sure, as long as it's done cautiously. But again, I'm infinitely more confident in my ability to fight them than to run from them. And as long as I judge myself having any chance to succeed in combat with him/them, I will NOT participate in a crime against an innocent (including myself).
Obviously there are limits to melee ability. If I'm looking at 10 guys, I'm not fighting at all unless it's guaranteed to go bad no matter what (like if they're there to harm or rape). But 3 is completely reasonable...and even 4 or 5 can be done, though with great risk. If it's 3 or 4 or more that look like they'd be pretty tough, ok, I'd have no choice but to draw...but when I do I'm risking legal action unless they're armed or have expressed that they're intent on harming us. I'd do it (better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6), but I would always rather not draw on unarmed people.
As far as I know this has nothing to do with masculinity or ego...it has to do with ideology...specifically the idea that doing what's 'right' (as one defines it) is more important than doing what's safe or easy. I'm the least classicly 'masculine' person you're ever likely to meet. I HATE competition, have no interest or desire for money, power, influence, etc. I don't like sports and would rather read poetry than work on a car any day. My 'ego' and 'pride' are derived from my steadfast adherence to my personal code of conduct. I will NOT act in a manner I see as wrong. That's just all there is to it. Oh, I make mistakes, sure...but I learn from them.
My values are THE most important thing to me. I'd surrender anything to hold to them. Anything. What's right is more important. I believe (though this is purely speculation and opinion) that it is this dedication which has allowed me to be as effective as I am in such situations. Most people try to protect themselves, to get what they 'want', to advance their situation, etc. I try ONLY to hold to my values...nothing else matters. That makes me a very difficult person to take advantage of, rather with crimes or physical violence or intimidation.
I will NOT be a victim. Period. If I can avoid conflict, I will. If I can't, I'll talk my way out. If I can't, then I'll be ready to do whatever is necessary to survive without acting in an incorrect manner.
i remember a few years back, some kid in a stolen car got pulled over.. he rammed the cop car, backed up and tried to run the cop over.. the cop shot him 8 times through the windshield.. everyone was all pissy about police brutality and all that bs.. i was thinking the guy was gonna run him over.. if he didn't shoot him till he stopped, then a good cop would have been dead and a punk kid would have lived... moral of the story: shoot till they stop moving toward you
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
No no no. You shoot it 10 times and say "I just shot 10 times, my clip holds 10, but I can carry an 11th in the chamber. Did I have an 11th chambered? Now you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?
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