License to carry a firearm

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bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
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Originally posted by: AbAbber2k
I'm not really down with your view of "if you shoot you're shooting to kill." It's not that black and white; nothing is. Maybe that's how the law views it, but even if my life is in danger, I'm only going to use as much force as is necessary such that I'm no longer in danger. If that means crippling my adversary rather than capping him in the fvcking head that's what I'll do. But I will use "deadly force" (as you so love to put it) if it's necessary.

Using a firearm is deadly force, no matter where you shoot. That's how it is. A shot to the leg *can* kill a person, but in most instances it won't even neutralize them.

When you shoot someone you are shooting to neutralize the threat. And how do you neutralize a threat? By shooting at 1. center mass and 2. the head. The best-case neutralization is putting two bullets into the heart and one into the brain. Odds are that's not going to happen, no matter how good a shot you think you are. Until you've drawn your weapon on someone and were fully prepared to kill them you simply cannot fathom what it's like.

Bottom line is, you do NOT shoot for limbs. You put your initial rounds into center mass, which is the largest target. After hitting center mass and the target still isn't neutralized you go for the head. If he lives, he lives. If he dies, he dies. The point is your survival and the survival of those around you.
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
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Originally posted by: lilcam
Yes ... exactly what I'm thinking. I'll shoot you if you try to harm my family but at the same time I wont put 8 bullets in you. One or two is enough to stop the person dead in his track. Why would I wanna kill someone? It doesnt make any sense. In that case, why wont the cops shoot a suspect to death when he/she tried to shoot at them?

You won't know how many bullets it's going to take to stop someone until they are stopped. Who says anything about *wanting* to kill? If you wanted to kill you'd be on the offensive, not the defensive.

What do you mean by why won't the cops shoot a suspect to death? Again, you shoot to neutralize by shooting to kill. If they survive their wounds then great, I don't have to have the weight of killing someone on my conscience, but I'm not shooting with the intent to guarantee their survival--I'm guaranteeing mine and the lives of the potential victims.
 

biggestmuff

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2001
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Wait a second. You own a gun and have a license to carry, but don't know when you should and shouldn't use it? You are an absolute ignorant fool! Do everyone a favor and brush up on your local and state laws before you even THINK of carrying again.
 

AbAbber2k

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
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I'm not saying I'm going to take the time to aim for individual body parts... that's a good way to get killed yourself. But if you shoot him in the chest and he goes down, dead or not, I'm done shooting. If I don't have to play the part of "Executioner" I'm not going to, but I will do everything necessary to protect myself and my loved ones.
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
13,479
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Originally posted by: AbAbber2k
But if you shoot him in the chest and he goes down, dead or not, I'm done shooting.

Yeah, that's pretty obvious. Anything more would be murder. :confused:
 
May 16, 2000
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Rule #1 - Laws vary from state to state, county to county, even town to town. What we tell you here may not be valid in your area. Check with local law enforcement or self-defense expert before proceeding.

You can ONLY draw when your life or the life of someone around you is in imminent peril. That means a reasonable person in your position would think that there was going to be harm done. If you allow your weapon to be seen at any other time, it's brandishing.

You don't have to immediately fire once you've drawn (though many gun rights advocates will tell you it's the safest idea when faced with later litigation because it's easier to prove you were in fear for your life). If you pull it out and they all run, you're fine. However, once it's in play you must shoot to kill...anything else and the court will argue you weren't afraid enough to need to use it.

It sounds like you may not have extensive training. Get it. Now. Seriously, contact the NRA, or other private agency and get some classes in. I'd suggest Refuse to be a Victim, as well as a basic handgun course, and probably a weapon retention class as well. I'd further recommend verbal judo (or other vocal de-escalation technique). Most localities have someone that will provide a concealed weapon class as well, to familiarize you with the ins and outs and answer any questions you have.

Now, about your suggested scenerio. Let me tell you how I personally would handle it, and keep it legal. We're walking on the street and people come up to us. I position myself slightly in front and to the side of her, keeping as many as possible in my field of vision...preferably with hard cover on one or more sides. We stop walking 25' or more from them to judge their actions. If at this point they infer that they are going to rob us, I begin backup up while telling my gf to call 911. I turn 3/4 from them and (keeping my hadns in front of me in plain view) tell them that we don't want any trouble, but we will not be giving them anything, that we're calling the police and if they attempt to harm us I will defend myself. If they have no weapons, and they push towards us, I really have very little choice by melee combat, though I will strike to incapacitate (eyes, throat, temple). If any of them have anything I can consider a weapon (ANYTHING), I draw, aim at center mass and shout for them to throw down their weapons or I'll fire. If they don't, I kill every single one of them. If it goes physical at any point, I tell my gf to run like hell to a public place and wait for the police.

The point of this is that I don't draw unless I can prove iminent threat. That doesn't mean I have to be a victim and give them my money or car. I can refuse. Then when I refuse, if they try to make it physical I have the right to kill them. See how that places the responsibility on them? VERY important to keep this in mind.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: lilcam
Originally posted by: Slacker
If you draw, be prepared to fire.

In the situation you describe, I can see drawing and backing away, and giving the bad guys the opportunity to get away as well, if you are backing away and they pursue, and you fear for your safety, fire away.

Thats all I wanna do. Pull it out or just show that I have it on my waist and hope they run off. I dont want to fire and hurt someone, but yes, if I had to I would! If you come at me with a gun or with a bat, then I'm going to shoot, but I wont shoot to kill.

Get rid of your gun and your permit IMMEDIATELY. You have no right, or ability to carry if that is your mindset.

I'm not joking, you're a threat to everyone around you. You absolutely MUST NOT THINK THIS WAY if you're going to carry a firearm. Surrender it immediately.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: AbAbber2k
Originally posted by: lilcam
Originally posted by: Evadman
The second it comes out you betetr be ready to use it and live with it. If you pull it out to 'scare' someone, you should not ahve a carry permit. It should be your absolute last resort.

So, you're saying if someone tries to mug me, let them mug me? I can't imagine me winning in court if I fired at the person and they have no weapon.

If you can prove your life was at risk then yes, you can win the case. When it comes down to it though, just pop em in the leg or something. At least then you can disprove intent to kill or something hehehe.

Worst advice EVER. First, you won't be able to hit crap in an actual situation...most people fire 5-8 shots and only hit with 1 or 2, and that's aiming for center mass which is the easiest to hit.

Second, if you don't shoot to kill the later court case will argue that you weren't in fear for your life, and you WILL lose. Period. If you don't shoot to kill, you're liable for everything that happens. TRUST ME. Or don't, contact a lawyer, they'll support me in this.

IF you carry a gun, it's to kill the enemy. Period. If you draw a gun and use it, you MUST aim center of mass and pray. Anything else and you'll be injured/killed, AND you'll lose in court.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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Originally posted by: AbAbber2k
I'm not saying I'm going to take the time to aim for individual body parts... that's a good way to get killed yourself. But if you shoot him in the chest and he goes down, dead or not, I'm done shooting. If I don't have to play the part of "Executioner" I'm not going to, but I will do everything necessary to protect myself and my loved ones.

Well...listen to these fine people.

You don't shoot to wound, you shoot to kill. I've been known to carry and luckily I've never had to draw it. But there is a decision point that comes....."my life is in danger, I must draw my weapon and protect myself".

Once that line is crossed it cannot be taken back.
 

bmacd

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
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I just took my concealed pistol class this past weekend. You can be charged with brandishing a gun, but if you were in the right, then who cares? I'm sure there's a slim chance a criminal is going to press charges.

-=bmacd=-

edit: my instructor came up with a term called, "calculated coward". Every bullet in your mag costs at least $1 million dollars, and treat it like it, because if you get sued, that's what each round will cost. Run in you can. Avoid using your pistol. After all, it is your worst case scenario.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: lilcam
Originally posted by: AbAbber2k
I'm not really down with your view of "if you shoot you're shooting to kill." It's not that black and white; nothing is. Maybe that's how the law views it, but even if my life is in danger, I'm only going to use as much force as is necessary such that I'm no longer in danger. If that means crippling my adversary rather than capping him in the fvcking head that's what I'll do. But I will use "deadly force" (as you so love to put it) if it's necessary.

Yes ... exactly what I'm thinking. I'll shoot you if you try to harm my family but at the same time I wont put 8 bullets in you. One or two is enough to stop the person dead in his track. Why would I wanna kill someone? It doesnt make any sense. In that case, why wont the cops shoot a suspect to death when he/she tried to shoot at them?

Remember that you're not on this earth to be a victim. Fvck the law, take care of #1 first.

EXACTLY!

You're wrong. Quite frequently people are shot numerous (read 5-15) times and continue to function, and even be lethal. Unless you hit a vital are (like the spinal cord at the neck), you're in it for the long haul. If you pause to assess damage inflicted, you will likely die. Period.

You have no idea what you're talking about, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to belittle you, or scare you, but I do this for a living and people like you are why we have so many problems. You HAVE to learn what's going on if you're going to carry. Honestly. Please. I'm begging you.

Tell you what, I will PAY for you to go take some classes. Seriously, it's that important to me.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: Malfeas
Mace or Pepper spray are highly effective at temporarily disabling a would be assailant. A handgun has only one purpose, to kill. I myself have a CWP, but have never felt the need to carry my handgun on me. But I also have some pepprerspray, it is a better form of self protection in my opinion, being as it isn't lethal. There are very few circumstances in which you would need to use a firearm to protect yourself.

Chem agents aren't always effective, have limited range, limited capacity, can affect the user and still carry libability issues with their use. Not saying they're not good for some things, but they're not totally effective.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: lilcam
Originally posted by: Yossarian
Originally posted by: lilcam
Yes ... exactly what I'm thinking. I'll shoot you if you try to harm my family but at the same time I wont put 8 bullets in you. One or two is enough to stop the person dead in his track. Why would I wanna kill someone? It doesnt make any sense. In that case, why wont the cops shoot a suspect to death when he/she tried to shoot at them?

I suggest you get some training because comments like that tell me you don't know wtf you're talking about. Bullets in general DO NOT STOP people in time to save your own ass unless you hit them in the head or central nervous system. You've been watching too many movies.

I think a bullet or two in my leg will stop me from moving for a bit. I'm not saying it's gonna immobolize the person but atleast it would impede them from doing anything further.

No, actually it almost never will, except occassionally from shock. Most people who are shot barely even realize it until much later. This has been proven in nearly every bit of research ever conducted.
 

ktehmok

Diamond Member
Aug 4, 2001
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PoW, put down the pipe bro (j/k), we've already covered all of this. I hope.

Breakdown:

1. If you're going to carry, be prepared to pull the trigger. You're training will determine where your shot's will go (Head to the range, you will never have enough pratice). If you have had no training, then you will likely not hit sh|t. Your adrenaline will make you fire wildly and hit anything that your muzzle crosses.

2. If or when someone threaten's your life or well being, or those of your friends. Then shoot for "CENTER OF MASS" (see Bradruth's post that corroborate's this, and my previous posts) to stop said attack. Hint: keep pulling trigger until threat is lying on the ground, and is no longer a viable "threat".

3. ?

4. Profit...just kidding. Your best defense is to NOT get yourself or those that you care about, in those situations to begin with. That's an easy thing to say, but a hard thing to accomplish. Use your common sense, and it is a very good idea to think like a criminal on occasion. Just ask yourself: "How would I want to rob someone at this location"? It may, or will seem paranoid. But what's the age old adage??? Know thine enemy...
 
May 16, 2000
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sorry...when i get worked up i respond as i work through the threads...makes for a lot of duplicity at times. Oh well, with something this important a little reiteration can't be a bad thing.

Honestly, gun ownership has a bad enough rap in the world, I'm just very VERY sensitive to things that could make it worse. Personal peeve.

Apologies.
 

ktehmok

Diamond Member
Aug 4, 2001
4,326
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Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
sorry...when i get worked up i respond as i work through the threads...makes for a lot of duplicity at times. Oh well, with something this important a little reiteration can't be a bad thing.

Honestly, gun ownership has a bad enough rap in the world, I'm just very VERY sensitive to things that could make it worse. Personal peeve.

Apologies.


No need to apologize, your posts have simply reiterated the fact's about this subject. It is a strong subject that needs to be addressed intelligently and without unecessary political bias...

Now let's all put on the flamesuits....
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
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Originally posted by: AbAbber2k
I'm not really down with your view of "if you shoot you're shooting to kill." It's not that black and white; nothing is. Maybe that's how the law views it, but even if my life is in danger, I'm only going to use as much force as is necessary such that I'm no longer in danger. If that means crippling my adversary rather than capping him in the fvcking head that's what I'll do. But I will use "deadly force" (as you so love to put it) if it's necessary.
Aiming for an extremity just means you're many times more likely to miss. If someone is coming at you after you've drawn, it's time for the takedown drill. Two shots to the center mass and one to the head.

Also, badruth is a police officer. I would consider him to be far better versed in how the law will view things than you are.

ZV
 

bmacd

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
10,869
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not to discredit badruth, but i've talked to plenty of cops who have a skewed view on pulling out a firearm. Most that I've talked to say, "if you pull it out, you'd better pull the trigger". That's not always the best case scenario.

-=bmacd=-
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
44
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Originally posted by: bmacd
not to discredit badruth, but i've talked to plenty of cops who have a skewed view on pulling out a firearm. Most that I've talked to say, "if you pull it out, you'd better pull the trigger". That's not always the best case scenario.

-=bmacd=-
That's not what he's saying though. If you pull it and the guy runs away you obviously don't shoot him. What he _is_ saying though is that if you draw, you need to be mentally ready to kill if the person doesn't stop coming at you.

ZV
 

bradruth

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
13,479
2
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Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
badruth

Originally posted by: bmacd
not to discredit badruth, but i've talked to plenty of cops who have a skewed view on pulling out a firearm. Most that I've talked to say, "if you pull it out, you'd better pull the trigger". That's not always the best case scenario.

-=bmacd=-

Is my name REALLY that hard to read? There's clearly an 'R' in there. So many people make that mistake. :confused:

bmacd: They're most likely taking the easy way out and trying to make you sure that you don't brandish. Getting into the legalities and specifics about how to carry and utilize a firearm gets too complicated for casual conversation.
 

ktehmok

Diamond Member
Aug 4, 2001
4,326
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Originally posted by: bradruth
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
badruth

Originally posted by: bmacd
not to discredit badruth, but i've talked to plenty of cops who have a skewed view on pulling out a firearm. Most that I've talked to say, "if you pull it out, you'd better pull the trigger". That's not always the best case scenario.

-=bmacd=-

Is my name REALLY that hard to read? There's clearly an 'R' in there. So many people make that mistake. :confused:

bmacd: They're most likely taking the easy way out and trying to make you sure that you don't brandish. Getting into the legalities and specifics about how to carry and utilize a firearm gets too complicated for casual conversation.

I tried to reply & tell them your correct username. But everything crashed and I didn't feel like typing it all out again.

Don't worry, those that can read, know what others' usernames are (or those that can "copy/paste").

What's in a name anyway? What you have stated is pretty much fact & law, and S.O.P in almost every state.

 
Aug 26, 2004
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shoot to kill...what if you shoot this person in the leg and he pulls his own firearm and shoots you in the head?

i was always taught that if you pull a gun on someone you should be pulling the trigger a quarter second later

don't pull it unless you fully intend to use it

and as others have said, dead criminals don't sue...
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,586
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let's say me and my girl was walking from our car to go someone and we get confronted by a group of guys. Can I pull my gun out to scare them? If their intent is to just rob us then thats fine but I dont know if they would hurt us.

So, if they say they just want to rob you you'd just put your gun away and give them your money?
 

bmacd

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
10,869
1
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Originally posted by: bradruth
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
badruth

Originally posted by: bmacd
not to discredit badruth, but i've talked to plenty of cops who have a skewed view on pulling out a firearm. Most that I've talked to say, "if you pull it out, you'd better pull the trigger". That's not always the best case scenario.

-=bmacd=-

Is my name REALLY that hard to read? There's clearly an 'R' in there. So many people make that mistake. :confused:

bmacd: They're most likely taking the easy way out and trying to make you sure that you don't brandish. Getting into the legalities and specifics about how to carry and utilize a firearm gets too complicated for casual conversation.

bradruth: i never saw your post, just copied your name from zem's post. Sorry for the typo :) :beer:

-=bmacd=-