Libertarians beginning to be a thorn in the side of the Republicans

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,235
6,338
126
Originally posted by: AAjax
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Tab
The "libertarians" are just being selfish, it's either their way or nothing else.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." - BG

So, you're going to potentially give us another four years of McSame?

God, please help us. :(



Oh look, the politics of fear. "Keep running in circles, if you dont vote for one, you get the other and thats scary!" You partisan zombies perpetuate the illusion of choice in a two party system when in fact there is none.

Actually, as a result of myopic defensiveness and foolishly wasting your vote, you have developed the illusion that democrats and republicans are the same to rationalize your wasted choice. Democrats and Republicans are not the same regardless of how many tantrums you throw claiming they are. Those of us in the real world have to pick our steaks on how much we can afford and them on how much marbling there is in the meat, the color of expiration date and lots of other things. We don't eat the perfect steak that is in our heads because we're well, real with our feet on the ground and our heads out of the clouds. The libertarian third party thingi is for idealists and dreamers.

But if you libertarians ever develop a message that reaches more than 10 people and get Ron Paul on the ballot with the Republican party, I will vote for him regardless of his lunatic ideas about the Fed and the gold standard. I figure it also at a million to one he could be worse than Bush, and unlike the purists I will soil my level pulling hands on him. :)
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX
Does anyone remember a time when decriminalizing drugs was unheard of and a crazy idea from those kooky libertarians? :D

Its interesting how perceptions can change.

Yeah, and if we ever get drug laws changed it will be by democrats and or republicans.

Possibly, but only because the voice has been kept alive by the Libertarians.

But not likely. Those two parties are in cahoots with those who wish to keep pot illegal. Especially Democrats who love those health care companies.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Libertarians are the same children who take their marbles and go home.

And Democrats are the same children that go around stealing marbles.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Good ideas are not worth much until you are in a position to turn them into a reality. I am not saying that I support Libertarian ideas because in most cases I tend to disagree, but the point is that until they learn how to play the political game better they will never get into office. Even if they did get into office without changing how they are trying to do so, they probably wouldn't get anything done half the time because once in office you need to learn how to play the game right so that ideas and debates turn into agreed upon decisions and/or laws. Most of the Libertarians I know personally as well as most of those on this forum rarely compromise with anything. It's always their way or the highway. That is one reason why they will never win.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,235
6,338
126
In the words of a 40 year libertarian who hosts a talk show on KGO San Francisco:

I Have Re-Registered as a Democrat

The fateful lunch took place at about this time 40 years ago. The setting was a media hangout in Baltimore. It was called a restaurant, but was candidly more like a glorified bar, redeemed by the hunk of good beef spit-roasting in the window. Six months into my first job as a talk show host I was eager to expand my ability. I was lunching with the radio station's general manager, Don Kelly, the news director, Cliff Barrett, and promotions director, Joe Clarke. As we methodically tackled sandwiches of rare roast beef sliced from the rotating hunk on fresh kaiser rolls with just a hint of fiery horseradish, the talk turned to the dominant issue of the day.

Cube Advertisement

I had accepted America's involvement in Viet Nam. Knowing little about the history and complexity of Southeast Asia and remembering that scary summer night when President Lyndon Johnson had somberly reported to the nation that we had been attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin, I had said so be it. Now a few years later I had grown skeptical. Persuasive voices suggesting that we had made a mistake grew louder and more insistent. As the death toll in Viet Nam mounted it seemed the price for our involvement in somebody else's fight had become too high. As the "new kid on the block" I was nervous, but finally told my colleagues I had decided to change my position and on my program come out against the war.

Don Kelly asked if I was sure. I said that short of going to Viet Nam personally, I had done everything I could to justify a change in position. "So why don't you go?" the boss asked. "Too expensive," I said. "We'll pay for the trip and you'll send back reports." News Director Cliff Barrett chimed in, announcing, "I want to go too." And so we went.

The trip was life-changing. I returned an ardent foe of the war. As the son of a long line of "blue collar" Democrats, I had registered as a Democrat. When Hubert Humphrey agreed not to oppose the war in order to get Lyndon Johnson's support for the Presidential nomination, I left the Democratic Party and became a Libertarian, an affiliation I maintained until just a few weeks ago.

1968 was a pivotal year in American history. I believe 2008 is also. The Libertarian party has failed to gain meaningful traction for many reasons worth discussing at another time. For now, after a 40-year exile, I have re-registered as a Democrat, allowing me the opportunity to participate in what I see as profound and fateful choices as we attempt desperately needed political and policy course corrections. I can't sit this one out secure in my Libertarian bubble. Oliver Wendell Holmes was correct when he observed that a person must be involved in the passion and action of his or her time or be judged never to have lived.

Rallying the colonists to the daunting task of breaking the yoke of Great Britain, the mightiest power on Earth, the incendiary Thomas Paine observed that the job at hand was too important to be left to "sunshine soldiers and summer patriots." I have that same sense about today.

-Gene Burns

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,235
6,338
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Libertarians are the same children who take their marbles and go home.

And Democrats are the same children that go around stealing marbles.

Nope, they make rules so you don't fudge. And nobody stole your marbles, you just lost them.
 

AAjax

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2001
3,798
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: AAjax
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Tab
The "libertarians" are just being selfish, it's either their way or nothing else.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." - BG

So, you're going to potentially give us another four years of McSame?

God, please help us. :(



Oh look, the politics of fear. "Keep running in circles, if you dont vote for one, you get the other and thats scary!" You partisan zombies perpetuate the illusion of choice in a two party system when in fact there is none.

Actually, as a result of myopic defensiveness and foolishly wasting your vote, you have developed the illusion that democrats and republicans are the same to rationalize your wasted choice. Democrats and Republicans are not the same regardless of how many tantrums you throw claiming they are. Those of us in the real world have to pick our steaks on how much we can afford and them on how much marbling there is in the meat, the color of expiration date and lots of other things. We don't eat the perfect steak that is in our heads because we're well, real with our feet on the ground and our heads out of the clouds. The libertarian third party thingi is for idealists and dreamers.

But if you libertarians ever develop a message that reaches more than 10 people and get Ron Paul on the ballot with the Republican party, I will vote for him regardless of his lunatic ideas about the Fed and the gold standard. I figure it also at a million to one he could be worse than Bush, and unlike the purists I will soil my level pulling hands on him. :)


It boils down to this IMHO, you say we have no choice other than that presented by the two party plutocracy by their disposition of having a stranglehold on the media or vise versa. Since our choice is unpopular due to this state of affairs our choice is wasted. Yet all movements of idealism are at the outset unpopular and resisted because they involve change and people in general do not like that as it requires effort and involves uncertainty.
The fact remains that our nation is a nation of ideals, mainly that the people have a right to govern themselves as a nation of individuals. However if would appear to me that neither of the main 2 parties represent the people, and in fact represent the interests that are subverting the right of the people to self govern. You may throw out any opinions of the validity of our ideals, yet we only hope that the people will be represented and in control of the government. You may mock our idealism as unworkable and uncompromising, yet I see no other working option as the current status quo isn?t working (IMHO)
Bottom line, you have a choice. Exercising that liberty is in no way a waste, as the only wasted vote is the one that is not cast.
I get where you are coming from, when we have done the legwork you may come along. But I suggest that we may need you help to get there :)



 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,235
6,338
126
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Good ideas are not worth much until you are in a position to turn them into a reality. I am not saying that I support Libertarian ideas because in most cases I tend to disagree, but the point is that until they learn how to play the political game better they will never get into office. Even if they did get into office without changing how they are trying to do so, they probably wouldn't get anything done half the time because once in office you need to learn how to play the game right so that ideas and debates turn into agreed upon decisions and/or laws. Most of the Libertarians I know personally as well as most of those on this forum rarely compromise with anything. It's always their way or the highway. That is one reason why they will never win.

But they sure know how to cry and point fingers.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,582
2,817
136
I thought this said "Librarians". I figured Noah Wylie must have thrown a spear at someone.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Good ideas are not worth much until you are in a position to turn them into a reality. I am not saying that I support Libertarian ideas because in most cases I tend to disagree, but the point is that until they learn how to play the political game better they will never get into office. Even if they did get into office without changing how they are trying to do so, they probably wouldn't get anything done half the time because once in office you need to learn how to play the game right so that ideas and debates turn into agreed upon decisions and/or laws. Most of the Libertarians I know personally as well as most of those on this forum rarely compromise with anything. It's always their way or the highway. That is one reason why they will never win.

The game exists because those in power want to keep it. By voting for Democrats and Republicans you perpetuate the game. The Iraq war is your fault every bit as much as it someone who voted for Bush because you keep voting for the same two parties over and over. You keep the game going. You keep evil in power.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Libertarians are the same children who take their marbles and go home.

And Democrats are the same children that go around stealing marbles.

Nope, they make rules so you don't fudge. And nobody stole your marbles, you just lost them.

Why do you need rules? Are you afraid of what you would do with them? Why don't you trust yourself?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Libertarians are the same children who take their marbles and go home.

And Democrats are the same children that go around stealing marbles.

Nope, they make rules so you don't fudge. And nobody stole your marbles, you just lost them.

That doesn't even make sense.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Good ideas are not worth much until you are in a position to turn them into a reality. I am not saying that I support Libertarian ideas because in most cases I tend to disagree, but the point is that until they learn how to play the political game better they will never get into office. Even if they did get into office without changing how they are trying to do so, they probably wouldn't get anything done half the time because once in office you need to learn how to play the game right so that ideas and debates turn into agreed upon decisions and/or laws. Most of the Libertarians I know personally as well as most of those on this forum rarely compromise with anything. It's always their way or the highway. That is one reason why they will never win.

The game exists because those in power want to keep it. By voting for Democrats and Republicans you perpetuate the game. The Iraq war is your fault every bit as much as it someone who voted for Bush because you keep voting for the same two parties over and over. You keep the game going. You keep evil in power.

That is quite extreme to say the least.

Here is the deal. No matter how much one person or one party may actually know what is best for this country, it is worthless to America unless they know how to put their methods into action. That means that they need to learn how to play the game so that once they win they can change the game. However, they refuse to compromise and that right there is one of the cornerstone reasons why I will never support them.

This country is forever changing. We face new problems all of the time. These problems are tackled by those with the power in attempt to fix them. Those who attempt to fix these problems sometimes come up with good ideas and other times they come up with bad ideas. No single person or party always comes up with good ideas though. Therefore, in order to really do what is best for this country, we must put people into power who are willing to change their ways. They need to be willing to admit they are wrong. They need to be willing to compromise.

I don't care who you are or what party you support. If you are not able to show me that you are willing to compromise then you will not get my vote. I do not believe there is any room in this country for a single die hard political party or view point of any kind. Things change too much for that. It is ok to lean towards one side more than another side most of time, but if you are not willing to change how much you are leaning at any time then you are going to screw us up. When it comes to Libertarians in particular, they just so happen to be a lot less willing to compromise than most other people that I have met or spoken to that belong to other parties. That is a major reason why I do not support them right now and will never support them until they prove to me that they are willing to change more so than they are willing to right now.

Last but most certainly not least, I believe that this country needs more government than Libertarians do. I do not believe we should have too much, but having too little is just as bad if not worse imo. There just are not enough people who are willing to work together enough for the greater good of a massive single society in order to do it any other way. Too many people believe in too many different things and they are all willing to fight for them. Unfortunately, not many will be willing to fight for their beliefs in a civil and productive way. We need to be controlled more than that otherwise everything that we have will fall apart over disagreement and disorganization. People will demand more order if we do that. They will demand more government than a Libertarian government.
 

AAjax

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2001
3,798
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Libertarians are the same children who take their marbles and go home.

And Democrats are the same children that go around stealing marbles.

Nope, they make rules so you don't fudge. And nobody stole your marbles, you just lost them.


Ah, so the Democrats are now the rule makers, shucks combined with the Republican "chooser" its a potent duo.





 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Good ideas are not worth much until you are in a position to turn them into a reality. I am not saying that I support Libertarian ideas because in most cases I tend to disagree, but the point is that until they learn how to play the political game better they will never get into office. Even if they did get into office without changing how they are trying to do so, they probably wouldn't get anything done half the time because once in office you need to learn how to play the game right so that ideas and debates turn into agreed upon decisions and/or laws. Most of the Libertarians I know personally as well as most of those on this forum rarely compromise with anything. It's always their way or the highway. That is one reason why they will never win.

The game exists because those in power want to keep it. By voting for Democrats and Republicans you perpetuate the game. The Iraq war is your fault every bit as much as it someone who voted for Bush because you keep voting for the same two parties over and over. You keep the game going. You keep evil in power.

That is quite extreme to say the least.

Here is the deal. No matter how much one person or one party may actually know what is best for this country, it is worthless to America unless they know how to put their methods into action. That means that they need to learn how to play the game so that once they win they can change the game. However, they refuse to compromise and that right there is one of the cornerstone reasons why I will never support them.

This country is forever changing. We face new problems all of the time. These problems are tackled by those with the power in attempt to fix them. Those who attempt to fix these problems sometimes come up with good ideas and other times they come up with bad ideas. No single person or party always comes up with good ideas though. Therefore, in order to really do what is best for this country, we must put people into power who are willing to change their ways. They need to be willing to admit they are wrong. They need to be willing to compromise.

I don't care who you are or what party you support. If you are not able to show me that you are willing to compromise then you will not get my vote. I do not believe there is any room in this country for a single die hard political party or view point of any kind. Things change too much for that. It is ok to lean towards one side more than another side most of time, but if you are not willing to change how much you are leaning at any time then you are going to screw us up. When it comes to Libertarians in particular, they just so happen to be a lot less willing to compromise than most other people that I have met or spoken to that belong to other parties. That is a major reason why I do not support them right now and will never support them until they prove to me that they are willing to change more so than they are willing to right now.

Last but most certainly not least, I believe that this country needs more government than Libertarians do. I do not believe we should have too much, but having too little is just as bad if not worse imo. There just are not enough people who are willing to work together enough for the greater good of a massive single society in order to do it any other way. Too many people believe in too many different things and they are all willing to fight for them. Unfortunately, not many will be willing to fight for their beliefs in a civil and productive way. We need to be controlled more than that otherwise everything that we have will fall apart over disagreement and disorganization. People will demand more order if we do that. They will demand more government than a Libertarian government.

In other words, you only want people who know how to play the game. So what's wrong with Republicans then? They're playing the game you want them to play.
 

AAjax

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2001
3,798
0
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Good ideas are not worth much until you are in a position to turn them into a reality. I am not saying that I support Libertarian ideas because in most cases I tend to disagree, but the point is that until they learn how to play the political game better they will never get into office. Even if they did get into office without changing how they are trying to do so, they probably wouldn't get anything done half the time because once in office you need to learn how to play the game right so that ideas and debates turn into agreed upon decisions and/or laws. Most of the Libertarians I know personally as well as most of those on this forum rarely compromise with anything. It's always their way or the highway. That is one reason why they will never win.

The game exists because those in power want to keep it. By voting for Democrats and Republicans you perpetuate the game. The Iraq war is your fault every bit as much as it someone who voted for Bush because you keep voting for the same two parties over and over. You keep the game going. You keep evil in power.

That is quite extreme to say the least.

Here is the deal. No matter how much one person or one party may actually know what is best for this country, it is worthless to America unless they know how to put their methods into action. That means that they need to learn how to play the game so that once they win they can change the game. However, they refuse to compromise and that right there is one of the cornerstone reasons why I will never support them.

This country is forever changing. We face new problems all of the time. These problems are tackled by those with the power in attempt to fix them. Those who attempt to fix these problems sometimes come up with good ideas and other times they come up with bad ideas. No single person or party always comes up with good ideas though. Therefore, in order to really do what is best for this country, we must put people into power who are willing to change their ways. They need to be willing to admit they are wrong. They need to be willing to compromise.

I don't care who you are or what party you support. If you are not able to show me that you are willing to compromise then you will not get my vote. I do not believe there is any room in this country for a single die hard political party or view point of any kind. Things change too much for that. It is ok to lean towards one side more than another side most of time, but if you are not willing to change how much you are leaning at any time then you are going to screw us up. When it comes to Libertarians in particular, they just so happen to be a lot less willing to compromise than most other people that I have met or spoken to that belong to other parties. That is a major reason why I do not support them right now and will never support them until they prove to me that they are willing to change more so than they are willing to right now.

Last but most certainly not least, I believe that this country needs more government than Libertarians do. I do not believe we should have too much, but having too little is just as bad if not worse imo. There just are not enough people who are willing to work together enough for the greater good of a massive single society in order to do it any other way. Too many people believe in too many different things and they are all willing to fight for them. Unfortunately, not many will be willing to fight for their beliefs in a civil and productive way. We need to be controlled more than that otherwise everything that we have will fall apart over disagreement and disorganization. People will demand more order if we do that. They will demand more government than a Libertarian government.

In other words, you only want people who know how to play the game. So what's wrong with Republicans then? They're playing the game you want them to play.


Yeah, it seems that the "game" is proprietary to the current two players. Gosh how ignorant of us, I mean the people should have no input in this situation and it should just be left to the "profesionals". Friggin peasants with delusions of grandeur, when will they understand they are too helpless to self govern.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,235
6,338
126
Originally posted by: AAjax
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: AAjax
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Tab
The "libertarians" are just being selfish, it's either their way or nothing else.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." - BG

So, you're going to potentially give us another four years of McSame?

God, please help us. :(



Oh look, the politics of fear. "Keep running in circles, if you dont vote for one, you get the other and thats scary!" You partisan zombies perpetuate the illusion of choice in a two party system when in fact there is none.

Actually, as a result of myopic defensiveness and foolishly wasting your vote, you have developed the illusion that democrats and republicans are the same to rationalize your wasted choice. Democrats and Republicans are not the same regardless of how many tantrums you throw claiming they are. Those of us in the real world have to pick our steaks on how much we can afford and them on how much marbling there is in the meat, the color of expiration date and lots of other things. We don't eat the perfect steak that is in our heads because we're well, real with our feet on the ground and our heads out of the clouds. The libertarian third party thingi is for idealists and dreamers.

But if you libertarians ever develop a message that reaches more than 10 people and get Ron Paul on the ballot with the Republican party, I will vote for him regardless of his lunatic ideas about the Fed and the gold standard. I figure it also at a million to one he could be worse than Bush, and unlike the purists I will soil my level pulling hands on him. :)


It boils down to this IMHO, you say we have no choice other than that presented by the two party plutocracy by their disposition of having a stranglehold on the media or vise versa. Since our choice is unpopular due to this state of affairs our choice is wasted. Yet all movements of idealism are at the outset unpopular and resisted because they involve change and people in general do not like that as it requires effort and involves uncertainty.
The fact remains that our nation is a nation of ideals, mainly that the people have a right to govern themselves as a nation of individuals. However if would appear to me that neither of the main 2 parties represent the people, and in fact represent the interests that are subverting the right of the people to self govern. You may throw out any opinions of the validity of our ideals, yet we only hope that the people will be represented and in control of the government. You may mock our idealism as unworkable and uncompromising, yet I see no other working option as the current status quo isn?t working (IMHO)
Bottom line, you have a choice. Exercising that liberty is in no way a waste, as the only wasted vote is the one that is not cast.
I get where you are coming from, when we have done the legwork you may come along. But I suggest that we may need you help to get there :)

G Bush has convinced me that the greater of two evils is huge. I'm idealistic, but I'm not blind or stupid. The best and only chance for change is Obama, in my opinion. What is mucking up the waters, again just my opinion, is that people today are just walking bot programs against liberals. Obama makes them pee in their pants. We've had nothing but class warfare against the middle class since Carter. If the rich get fucked for a change, tough shit.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,235
6,338
126
Originally posted by: AAjax
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Good ideas are not worth much until you are in a position to turn them into a reality. I am not saying that I support Libertarian ideas because in most cases I tend to disagree, but the point is that until they learn how to play the political game better they will never get into office. Even if they did get into office without changing how they are trying to do so, they probably wouldn't get anything done half the time because once in office you need to learn how to play the game right so that ideas and debates turn into agreed upon decisions and/or laws. Most of the Libertarians I know personally as well as most of those on this forum rarely compromise with anything. It's always their way or the highway. That is one reason why they will never win.

The game exists because those in power want to keep it. By voting for Democrats and Republicans you perpetuate the game. The Iraq war is your fault every bit as much as it someone who voted for Bush because you keep voting for the same two parties over and over. You keep the game going. You keep evil in power.

That is quite extreme to say the least.

Here is the deal. No matter how much one person or one party may actually know what is best for this country, it is worthless to America unless they know how to put their methods into action. That means that they need to learn how to play the game so that once they win they can change the game. However, they refuse to compromise and that right there is one of the cornerstone reasons why I will never support them.

This country is forever changing. We face new problems all of the time. These problems are tackled by those with the power in attempt to fix them. Those who attempt to fix these problems sometimes come up with good ideas and other times they come up with bad ideas. No single person or party always comes up with good ideas though. Therefore, in order to really do what is best for this country, we must put people into power who are willing to change their ways. They need to be willing to admit they are wrong. They need to be willing to compromise.

I don't care who you are or what party you support. If you are not able to show me that you are willing to compromise then you will not get my vote. I do not believe there is any room in this country for a single die hard political party or view point of any kind. Things change too much for that. It is ok to lean towards one side more than another side most of time, but if you are not willing to change how much you are leaning at any time then you are going to screw us up. When it comes to Libertarians in particular, they just so happen to be a lot less willing to compromise than most other people that I have met or spoken to that belong to other parties. That is a major reason why I do not support them right now and will never support them until they prove to me that they are willing to change more so than they are willing to right now.

Last but most certainly not least, I believe that this country needs more government than Libertarians do. I do not believe we should have too much, but having too little is just as bad if not worse imo. There just are not enough people who are willing to work together enough for the greater good of a massive single society in order to do it any other way. Too many people believe in too many different things and they are all willing to fight for them. Unfortunately, not many will be willing to fight for their beliefs in a civil and productive way. We need to be controlled more than that otherwise everything that we have will fall apart over disagreement and disorganization. People will demand more order if we do that. They will demand more government than a Libertarian government.

In other words, you only want people who know how to play the game. So what's wrong with Republicans then? They're playing the game you want them to play.


Yeah, it seems that the "game" is proprietary to the current two players. Gosh how ignorant of us, I mean the people should have no input in this situation and it should just be left to the "profesionals". Friggin peasants with delusions of grandeur, when will they understand they are too helpless to self govern.

Your elitism is showing.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
G Bush has convinced me that the greater of two evils is huge. I'm idealistic, but I'm not blind or stupid. The best and only chance for change is Obama, in my opinion. What is mucking up the waters, again just my opinion, is that people today are just walking bot programs against liberals. Obama makes them pee in their pants. We've had nothing but class warfare against the middle class since Carter. If the rich get fucked for a change, tough shit.

And the truth comes out. Finally. The Republicans and Democrats play the game of "let's try to fuck each other."

In the end, its the American people who get fucked.

I'm not going to participate in the game, Moonbeam. I'll sit back and watch both parties destroy the country before I stand up and help you do it.
 

AAjax

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2001
3,798
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: AAjax
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Good ideas are not worth much until you are in a position to turn them into a reality. I am not saying that I support Libertarian ideas because in most cases I tend to disagree, but the point is that until they learn how to play the political game better they will never get into office. Even if they did get into office without changing how they are trying to do so, they probably wouldn't get anything done half the time because once in office you need to learn how to play the game right so that ideas and debates turn into agreed upon decisions and/or laws. Most of the Libertarians I know personally as well as most of those on this forum rarely compromise with anything. It's always their way or the highway. That is one reason why they will never win.

The game exists because those in power want to keep it. By voting for Democrats and Republicans you perpetuate the game. The Iraq war is your fault every bit as much as it someone who voted for Bush because you keep voting for the same two parties over and over. You keep the game going. You keep evil in power.

That is quite extreme to say the least.

Here is the deal. No matter how much one person or one party may actually know what is best for this country, it is worthless to America unless they know how to put their methods into action. That means that they need to learn how to play the game so that once they win they can change the game. However, they refuse to compromise and that right there is one of the cornerstone reasons why I will never support them.

This country is forever changing. We face new problems all of the time. These problems are tackled by those with the power in attempt to fix them. Those who attempt to fix these problems sometimes come up with good ideas and other times they come up with bad ideas. No single person or party always comes up with good ideas though. Therefore, in order to really do what is best for this country, we must put people into power who are willing to change their ways. They need to be willing to admit they are wrong. They need to be willing to compromise.

I don't care who you are or what party you support. If you are not able to show me that you are willing to compromise then you will not get my vote. I do not believe there is any room in this country for a single die hard political party or view point of any kind. Things change too much for that. It is ok to lean towards one side more than another side most of time, but if you are not willing to change how much you are leaning at any time then you are going to screw us up. When it comes to Libertarians in particular, they just so happen to be a lot less willing to compromise than most other people that I have met or spoken to that belong to other parties. That is a major reason why I do not support them right now and will never support them until they prove to me that they are willing to change more so than they are willing to right now.

Last but most certainly not least, I believe that this country needs more government than Libertarians do. I do not believe we should have too much, but having too little is just as bad if not worse imo. There just are not enough people who are willing to work together enough for the greater good of a massive single society in order to do it any other way. Too many people believe in too many different things and they are all willing to fight for them. Unfortunately, not many will be willing to fight for their beliefs in a civil and productive way. We need to be controlled more than that otherwise everything that we have will fall apart over disagreement and disorganization. People will demand more order if we do that. They will demand more government than a Libertarian government.

In other words, you only want people who know how to play the game. So what's wrong with Republicans then? They're playing the game you want them to play.


Yeah, it seems that the "game" is proprietary to the current two players. Gosh how ignorant of us, I mean the people should have no input in this situation and it should just be left to the "profesionals". Friggin peasants with delusions of grandeur, when will they understand they are too helpless to self govern.

Your elitism is showing.


Shucks and I just thought it was my sarcasm, thanks *zips up fly*
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,235
6,338
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
G Bush has convinced me that the greater of two evils is huge. I'm idealistic, but I'm not blind or stupid. The best and only chance for change is Obama, in my opinion. What is mucking up the waters, again just my opinion, is that people today are just walking bot programs against liberals. Obama makes them pee in their pants. We've had nothing but class warfare against the middle class since Carter. If the rich get fucked for a change, tough shit.

And the truth comes out. Finally. The Republicans and Democrats play the game of "let's try to fuck each other."

In the end, its the American people who get fucked.

I'm not going to participate in the game, Moonbeam. I'll sit back and watch both parties destroy the country before I stand up and help you do it.

No, no, that's you concern, not mine. It's you who fears change will be for the worse, not me, remember? It's your bot fear not mine. It's your fear that keeps you paralyzed. The think you fear is that the haves will have to pay a bigger part of the tab. If that's what happens after 30 years of ripping off the poor and the middle class with the end of special tax break legislation, you can cry me a river.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,235
6,338
126
Shucks and I just thought it was my sarcasm, thanks *zips up fly*

Every vote that does not go to Obama gives voice to a vote that goes to McCain. You have just seen nearly 8 years of total disaster. If you feel you have that luxury I think you do so because you're an elitist air head and ideological fanatic. You have to be completely off your rocker to think Obama can be as bad as Mcmore of the same. You are a complete self destructive nut who lives in la la land.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
G Bush has convinced me that the greater of two evils is huge. I'm idealistic, but I'm not blind or stupid. The best and only chance for change is Obama, in my opinion. What is mucking up the waters, again just my opinion, is that people today are just walking bot programs against liberals. Obama makes them pee in their pants. We've had nothing but class warfare against the middle class since Carter. If the rich get fucked for a change, tough shit.

And the truth comes out. Finally. The Republicans and Democrats play the game of "let's try to fuck each other."

In the end, its the American people who get fucked.

I'm not going to participate in the game, Moonbeam. I'll sit back and watch both parties destroy the country before I stand up and help you do it.

No, no, that's you concern, not mine. It's you who fears change will be for the worse, not me, remember? It's your bot fear not mine. It's your fear that keeps you paralyzed. The think you fear is that the haves will have to pay a bigger part of the tab. If that's what happens after 30 years of ripping off the poor and the middle class with the end of special tax break legislation, you can cry me a river.

I fear change? Heh, funny.

In many ways, Moonbeam, the haves already pay a bigger part of the tab. So, I don't understand what you mean there. You two can fight over who pays what on the tab. I'd like to get rid of the tab altogether.

It's just a damn shame that a McDonald's burger flipper receives his paycheck only to see the government took some before he even got his. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

But regardless of why you bring that up, Moonbeam, where we really need change is in foreign policy. And that is not what we'd get with Obama. Obama is an interventionist and a world's policeman, just like all the rest. It's a myth you all have been led to believe, that the two parties have a different foreign policy. And while you two bicker about wedge issues, you fail to see the truth, that the two parties argue only on the details of the same foreign policy.