Libertarians beginning to be a thorn in the side of the Republicans

[bamacre]

Ran across this going on in Texas...

http://trailblazersblog.dallas...a-pox-on-both-you.html

Libertarians have been getting a lot of attention this month from Republicans and Democrats over Texas House races. Now they've had enough about both parties and their spinmeisters. Hint: it's why they've formed their own party.

It started when former House member and now lobbyist Suzanna Hupp phoned three Libertarian candidates running in close House races and begged them to drop out.


....

Also, while Gallup, as well as many other pollsters, has decided to lump all the 3rd party candidates into "unsure," Zogby has not, and says that Libertarian presidential candidate Bob Barr, is polling at 6% nationwide. That can't make McCain very happy.

You can view their numbers by state here...
http://www.zogby.com/50state/

Also, the ACLU is sueing Massachusetts for refusing to put Barr on their ballot.

 

[SAWYER]

I wish the Libertarians would gain ground, we need a viable and real 3rd party other than the two jokes we have now.

 

[Moonbeam]

You can vote for McSame or the Tidal Wave. All other votes are wasted. Libertarians are a bunch of malcontents that will never amount to anything. It's for masochists who like to be right when nobody else even cares. You can't change anything because you can't get elected. It's for folk to arrogant to be practical and vote for the only person in the race who can redirect the country and fix the disaster created by conservatives. You libertarians in your purity will screw the nation. Good luck to you.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Sawyer
I wish the Libertarians would gain ground, we need a viable and real 3rd party other than the two jokes we have now.

Yup, and you will wish forever.

 

[ProfJohn]

The big problem is that libertarians are only going to help the Democrats win more seats etc.

And of course the Republicans are a LOT close to libertarians on most issues.

 

[First]

Except the Libertarian Party is a bit kooky, and I say that as a (soon to be former) member. Their intentions are good but their rhetoric resembles much of the same type of attempts at persuasion seen by fringe libertarians on the Internet. A lot of Ron Paul nuts embracing principles without embracing reality, that sort of thing.

 

[First]

^ Though, to be fair, I'd vote Libertarian before I'd ever vote for any current GOP candidate. And I'd actually consider voting Democrat if the Dems would actually find a centrist Blue Dog as their nominee.

 

[SAWYER]

Yeah I agree Evan, the typical Libertarian is pretentious and thinks they are some how enlightened because the are a Libertarian

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Sawyer
I wish the Libertarians would gain ground, we need a viable and real 3rd party other than the two jokes we have now.

The only way to break the power of our two party system would be if two more parties were formed.

A right wing libertarian party and a left wing green type of party.
Then you could vote your beliefs without worrying that you are just enabling the other side by dividing the vote.

Honestly though does anyone think the European multi party system works better than ours?

 

[HeXploiT]

Well one thing is for sure...with the spread of Ron Paul republicans throughout the Republican party the dems will have it clinched every year until the Republicans decide to change.

 

[ProfJohn]

^ more like the Dems will win till the people voting libertarian come to their senses and realize they are shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: Sawyer
Yeah I agree Evan, the typical Libertarian is pretentious and thinks they are some how enlightened because the are a Libertarian

Yeah, and to be a full-blooded Libertarian you have to believe in some really kooky stuff. Myself, I'm fiscally conservative and have no problem reducing the scope of federal gov't power by reducing spending, especially on massive social programs. But since I'm more liberal on social issues (independent of spending), the Libertarian party just wasn't a good fit. GOP has a branding problem generally and have become dangerous to the health of the U.S. currently, so they're out. A lot of fringe leftists (and I would possibly include Pelosi among those) are the left's kooky version of dangerous GOP neoconservatives, so they're out as well. I guess Blue Dog Dems are more reasonable, but some are still too conservative on social issues and too liberal on social spending programs.

In the end, I'd love to see a true moderate 3rd party emerge. Frankly, I think it's going to happen and it's going to completely change the landscape of politics. Maybe that's a dream though.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
You can vote for McSame or the Tidal Wave. All other votes are wasted.

And I will say that those who vote for McCain or Obama are wasting their votes.

What exactly does "wasting your vote" mean? If Obama wins, does that mean that everyone who voted for McCain wasted their vote? If McCain wins, does that mean that everyone who voted for Obama wasted their vote?

It is your duty to vote for who you think would do the best job. This isn't a popularity contest. You don't get a prize if you vote for the winner.

IMO, a "wasted vote" is either one not cast, or one cast for the "lesser of two evils."

Libertarians are a bunch of malcontents that will never amount to anything.

When you say anything, do you mean Libertarians will never get a chance to start illegal wars? Never get to make promises the government can't keep? Run up trillion dollar deficits? Trample on the rights of Americans? Fail to impeach a criminal president?

You can't change anything because you can't get elected.

Is that the LP's fault, or the American peoples'? Perhaps the LP party should create boogymen overseas, or promise "free" health care to everyone. Or perhaps they should cater to lobbyists. Hey, we gotta compete, right?

It's for folk to arrogant to be practical and vote for the only person in the race who can redirect the country and fix the disaster created by conservatives.

Arrogant, huh? Looking in that mirror again?

You libertarians in your purity will screw the nation.

Screwing the nation has already been achieved. The Republicans and Democrats did an outstanding job. Congrats.

You wouldn't know real hope nor real change if it bit you on the ass.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The big problem is that libertarians are only going to help the Democrats win more seats etc.

And of course the Republicans are a LOT close to libertarians on most issues.

No, the big problem is that the Republicans are acting like Democrats, and Democrats are better at being Democrats than Republicans. If the Republicans acted like they should, there probably wouldn't be much of a Libertarian Party.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
^ more like the Dems will win till the people voting libertarian come to their senses and realize they are shooting themselves in the foot.

Yeah, because God forbid the Republican party actually stand for small government. :roll:

 

[Xonoahbin]

I'd like to chime in concerning the hatred for Libertarians. I am a Libertarian myself and I don't particularly understand the malice that people have for the party. Libertarians have a legitimate party platform that typically takes elements from both ends of the spectrum. With the changes in the Republican party, civil liberties and personal responsibility have been flushed down the toilet in favor of more government intervention and a military-industrial complex. The Democrats, blaming the Republicans for everything, take the opposite stance of what the Republicans purport as their platform; the Democrats support more government intervention, less personal responsibility and a socialist-type agenda. The problem is that the Republicans have shifted that way. With that being duly noted, what is left for the people who believe that both parties are off target? Of course, third parties are left for those people. A number of people consider third party supporters to be "kooky" (see Evan Lieb), however, there are party loyalists in every party; there are people who will not deviate one bit from their party's platform, and of course, those are the dangerous people.

They are to be found in every party, be that the Democrats with extreme liberals, the Republicans with extreme conservatives, the Green Party with extreme environmentalists, or any other party you can name. The key to everything is mediation and moderation, or what I like to call the M&Ms of life. You mediate with others to come to an agreement, typically by moderating your core principles. This isn't to say that you will completely toss what you believe out the window, but to modify it to make all parties involved content. There will never be a moderate third party, but rather moderate third party candidates. Parties do not moderate and mediate, but the candidates must. You may notice that the extreme Libertarians make quite a bit of noise, raving about cutting the federal reserve and everything else. These people may feel they are enlightened, but then again, people of every party do. The difference is that Libertarians get exceptionally motivated because they aren't sticking to the norm; when you're saying something different than everyone else, you tend to shout it. And, as Napoleon Bonaparte once noted, "Ten people who speak make more noise than ten thousand who are silent." Just because some Libertarians feel themselves more important than other people does not mean we have a sense of entitlement.

Now, I would like to pose a couple of questions to anyone who reads this: With my points being noted, is the Libertarian party truly any different than any other party? Are Libertarians inherently incapable of moderating and mediating so as to get things done? And finally, is it not possible that a young, lively party may awaken the Democrats and Republicans who aren't particularly interested in changing the status quo?

If you truly believe that Libertarians are somehow inherently unreasonable, unwilling to mediate and moderate, and ignorant, I hope that you will open your eyes. I could say the same about Democrats and Republicans, but they are the same as anyone else. And alas, we currently continue on a path where nothing really changes.

 

[Moonbeam]

b: And I will say that those who vote for McCain or Obama are wasting their votes.

M: You can say anything you want, but if McCain or Obama are the only ones who have a chance of winning and that's pretty damn obvious, voting for one of them is not wasting a vote.

b: What exactly does "wasting your vote" mean? If Obama wins, does that mean that everyone who voted for McCain wasted their vote? If McCain wins, does that mean that everyone who voted for Obama wasted their vote?

M: Wasting you vote is voting for somebody you know hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

b: It is your duty to vote for who you think would do the best job. This isn't a popularity contest. You don't get a prize if you vote for the winner.

M: I say if you had any sense you'd vote for Obama because he is the only one who can win and can bring change. Your duty ought to be to insure the nut cases that have been in power are thrown out. But you see your duty to fantasy principles that float in your head.

b: IMO, a "wasted vote" is either one not cast, or one cast for the "lesser of two evils."

M: Exactly, you are too arrogant to get your hands dirty voting for somebody who can actually win who is better than the other guy that also might actually win. You are an idealist and a dreamer. I can't afford to be like you. I have to make choices that are real.

b: When you say anything, do you mean Libertarians will never get a chance to start illegal wars? Never get to make promises the government can't keep? Run up trillion dollar deficits? Trample on the rights of Americans? Fail to impeach a criminal president?

M: Exactly, they will never get to show the world what fuck ups they are too.

b: Is that the LP's fault, or the American peoples'? Perhaps the LP party should create boogymen overseas, or promise "free" health care to everyone. Or perhaps they should cater to lobbyists. Hey, we gotta compete, right?

M: Maybe they can can piss and moan and sell it by the truck load. Your party can't attract even a good sized minority, so who gives a shit whose fault it is. You are irrelevant either way.

b: Arrogant, huh? Looking in that mirror again?

M: I am not the one who is too much a dreamer to vote for the lesser of two evils. That's you.

b: Screwing the nation has already been achieved. The Republicans and Democrats did an outstanding job. Congrats.

M: No, you will insure the nations stays screwed by refusing to vote for change. The nation is screwed so you sit in your corner and pout and cry instead of voting for change.

b: You wouldn't know real hope nor real change if it bit you on the ass.

M: I get that a lot from people who feel bitten on the ass. 🙂 My guy will win and change things and yours will lose and do nothing at all.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
You can vote for McSame or the Tidal Wave. All other votes are wasted.

And I will say that those who vote for McCain or Obama are wasting their votes.

What exactly does "wasting your vote" mean? If Obama wins, does that mean that everyone who voted for McCain wasted their vote? If McCain wins, does that mean that everyone who voted for Obama wasted their vote?

It is your duty to vote for who you think would do the best job. This isn't a popularity contest. You don't get a prize if you vote for the winner.

In this case, voting for government expansion sure as hell gets you a prize. It's a bigger welfare check.

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The big problem is that libertarians are only going to help the Democrats win more seats etc.

And of course the Republicans are a LOT close to libertarians on most issues.

That ProfJohn is precisely the two party mentality. You want us blackmailed by the ?it?s either us or the Democrats? stance? Well how about you abandon your principals and we?ll keep ours. Then you can vote for us or the Dems.

Sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war. I WILL NOT sell out to Republicans who continue to expand government against the American people. I would rather bury dead the Republican Party than watch it achieve the Democrat?s same objectives, only at a slower pace. The day Republicans stop pandering to the Democrat?s voting block is the day they might be worth reconciling with.

McCain might win the Dem?s hearts and minds, he won?t win ours.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I am not the one who is too much a dreamer to vote for the lesser of two evils. That's you.

This is the kind of attitude of the American people that has ruined this country. You don't mind voting for liars, thieves, nor criminals.

When Americans vote for the lesser of two evils, they still get evil, no?

That's why we are in Iraq. That is why we were attacked on 9/11. That is why we have run up a $10 trillion dollar debt, and why there's another $90 trillion in "promises."

No, you will insure the nations stays screwed by refusing to vote for change. The nation is screwed so you sit in your corner and pout and cry instead of voting for change.

What you see as change is jack shit. I challenge you to go back and watch the 1992 debates when Clinton talked all about hope and change, and what do we have today? The same old shit.

The only real change that this country needs is not coming from Obama. He's just another politician from a machine.

You all wonder why Obama gets the "messiah" reputation. You should read your own posts. He's going to win, no doubt about it. And you all will become apologists when he fucks up, just like the Bush apologists of today.

I get that a lot from people who feel bitten on the ass. My guy will win and change things and yours will lose and do nothing at all.

I'm sure he'll win. I'm sure he'll "change things," and that's what I fear. Not that I like what's going on today, but tomorrow, and change, doesn't always bring good. Germany changed after WWI. The Republican party changed, too. You can change your dirty underwear for another pair of dirty underwear, but you'll still stink.

As for your voting for a "winner", there's millions of Americans running around that voted for Bush, most of them twice.

Neither one of us has a crystal ball. But we shall see, Moonbeam. We shall see.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Well, nobody is running that I think is worth a damn, so I guess I'm down to the lesser evil. Far better than not voting in my mind.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
^ more like the Dems will win till the people voting libertarian come to their senses and realize they are shooting themselves in the foot.

OTOH, maybe if enough Rs start voting Lib the Republican party will get the hint and start living up to the smaller, cheaper, less powerful, more efficient government rhetoric they've been preaching about... but not living up to.

Sometimes teams have to spend a few seasons getting their asses kicked while they rebuild into champions. Scrape off the old, useless veterans and build up the new guys. Stuff like that. The R party needs a HUGE douching out. If that means the old guard loses to Ds for now so be it.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
^ more like the Dems will win till the people voting libertarian come to their senses and realize they are shooting themselves in the foot.

OTOH, maybe if enough Rs start voting Lib the Republican party will get the hint and start living up to the smaller, cheaper, less powerful, more efficient government rhetoric they've been preaching about... but not living up to.

Sometimes teams have to spend a few seasons getting their asses kicked while they rebuild into champions. Scrape off the old, useless veterans and build up the new guys. Stuff like that. The R party needs a HUGE douching out. If that means the old guard loses to Ds for now so be it.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
^ more like the Dems will win till the people voting libertarian come to their senses and realize they are shooting themselves in the foot.

OTOH, maybe if enough Rs start voting Lib the Republican party will get the hint and start living up to the smaller, cheaper, less powerful, more efficient government rhetoric they've been preaching about... but not living up to.

Sometimes teams have to spend a few seasons getting their asses kicked while they rebuild into champions. Scrape off the old, useless veterans and build up the new guys. Stuff like that. The R party needs a HUGE douching out. If that means the old guard loses to Ds for now so be it.

I was going to write something similar but you pretty much spoke my mind.

 

[Throckmorton]

Libertarians are limp wristed anarchists with outdated ideology. The most bizarre thing is their idol, Ron Paul, is a theocrat with fascist tendencies.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The big problem is that libertarians are only going to help the Democrats win more seats etc.

And of course the Republicans are a LOT close to libertarians on most issues.

Hey smart guy, what do you think the Green Party did for dems 😛