Libertarianism: what are some good books?

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic
Anyone who tells you anything else is filling your head with false propaganda.

Cultism at it's finest.

Is it? So if I told you black was white, and you disagreed and insisted that white was white, would that be cultism too?

Way to justify lies and slander... :roll:

Comrade, do not upset yourself, of course your "consumers utopia of individual ruggedness" will crush all who stand before you, and it will flooow across the globe as a wave of revoloution, freeing the people from their economic chains.

:roll:

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic
Anyone who tells you anything else is filling your head with false propaganda.

Cultism at it's finest.

Is it? So if I told you black was white, and you disagreed and insisted that white was white, would that be cultism too?

Way to justify lies and slander... :roll:

Comrade, do not upset yourself, of course your "consumers utopia of individual ruggedness" will crush all who stand before you, and it will flooow across the globe as a wave of revoloution, freeing the people from their economic chains.

:roll:

OMG you are clueless. Why do keep pretending otherwise? Libertarians are inherently anti-consumeristic. So where you think every consumer good should be given to you as a right or entitlement, we think that people should consume only as much as is necessary for their personal well-being (which of course is an personal decision).
You continue -- with your every post -- to make Orwell look like Nostradamus. Quack, bitch, quack. You do it so well.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Vic

OMG you are clueless.

No, you are clueless, but it is part of being a libertarian, you all know unless you suck everyone into your little pyramid scheme cult it is just another utopian fantasy.

And whats sad is if your going to be a radical wingnut, sorry, commies have all the chicks, socialism at least has actual countries that are doing well, in some ways better then the US, and all you all have is this cult-like annoyance with the world becasue they don't buy into the libertarian fantasy, that's the most annoying part of a "realitst" they are social outcasts pretty much by choice and have no clue what is real anymore anyway.

Oh well, the most annoying former neocon wingnuts will come over to the pseudo-libertarian side for awhile, -enjoy.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic

OMG you are clueless.

No, you are clueless, but it is part of being a libertarian, you all know unless you suck everyone into your little pyramid scheme cult it is just another utopian fantasy.

And whats sad is if your going to be a radical wingnut, sorry, commies have all the chicks, socialism at least has actual countries that are doing well, in some ways better then the US, and all you all have is this cult-like annoyance with the world becasue they don't buy into the libertarian fantasy, that's the most annoying part of a "realitst" they are social outcasts pretty much by choice and have no clue what is real anymore anyway.

Oh well, the most annoying former neocon wingnuts will come over to the pseudo-libertarian side for awhile, -enjoy.

Indeed, the Soviet Union, Cuba, N Korea,Vietnam, and soon Venezuela are models or Socialism at its finest.

China you ask? They decided long ago Socialism is a failed experiement and more open markets are the way to go.

 

[Steeplerot]

This is no surprise, as libertarianism is basically the Marxism of the Right.



If Marxism is the delusion that one can run society purely on altruism and collectivism, then libertarianism is the mirror-image delusion that one can run it purely on selfishness and individualism. Society in fact requires both individualism and collectivism, both selfishness and altruism, to function. Like Marxism, libertarianism offers the fraudulent intellectual security of a complete a priori account of the political good without the effort of empirical investigation. Like Marxism, it aspires, overtly or covertly, to reduce social life to economics. And like Marxism, it has its historical myths and a genius for making its followers feel like an elect unbound by the moral rules of their society.

The most fundamental problem with libertarianism is very simple: freedom, though a good thing, is simply not the only good thing in life. Simple physical security, which even a prisoner can possess, is not freedom, but one cannot live without it. Prosperity is connected to freedom, in that it makes us free to consume, but it is not the same thing, in that one can be rich but as unfree as a Victorian tycoon?s wife. A family is in fact one of the least free things imaginable, as the emotional satisfactions of it derive from relations that we are either born into without choice or, once they are chosen, entail obligations that we cannot walk away from with ease or justice. But security, prosperity, and family are in fact the bulk of happiness for most real people and the principal issues that concern governments.

link

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic

OMG you are clueless.

No, you are clueless, but it is part of being a libertarian, you all know unless you suck everyone into your little pyramid scheme cult it is just another utopian fantasy.

And whats sad is if your going to be a radical wingnut, sorry, commies have all the chicks, socialism at least has actual countries that are doing well, in some ways better then the US, and all you all have is this cult-like annoyance with the world becasue they don't buy into the libertarian fantasy, that's the most annoying part of a "realitst" they are social outcasts pretty much by choice and have no clue what is real anymore anyway.

Oh well, the most annoying former neocon wingnuts will come over to the pseudo-libertarian side for awhile, -enjoy.

Indeed, the Soviet Union, Cuba, N Korea,Vietnam, and soon Venezuela are models or Socialism at its finest.

China you ask? They decided long ago Socialism is a failed experiement and more open markets are the way to go.

Freedom is evil, comrade. Don't you know that thinking for yourself is selfishness?? How dare you??!?! Now quack like the rest of us ducks!

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
This is no surprise, as libertarianism is basically the Marxism of the Right.



If Marxism is the delusion that one can run society purely on altruism and collectivism, then libertarianism is the mirror-image delusion that one can run it purely on selfishness and individualism. Society in fact requires both individualism and collectivism, both selfishness and altruism, to function. Like Marxism, libertarianism offers the fraudulent intellectual security of a complete a priori account of the political good without the effort of empirical investigation. Like Marxism, it aspires, overtly or covertly, to reduce social life to economics. And like Marxism, it has its historical myths and a genius for making its followers feel like an elect unbound by the moral rules of their society.

The most fundamental problem with libertarianism is very simple: freedom, though a good thing, is simply not the only good thing in life. Simple physical security, which even a prisoner can possess, is not freedom, but one cannot live without it. Prosperity is connected to freedom, in that it makes us free to consume, but it is not the same thing, in that one can be rich but as unfree as a Victorian tycoon?s wife. A family is in fact one of the least free things imaginable, as the emotional satisfactions of it derive from relations that we are either born into without choice or, once they are chosen, entail obligations that we cannot walk away from with ease or justice. But security, prosperity, and family are in fact the bulk of happiness for most real people and the principal issues that concern governments.

link

I love the 2nd paragraph. That is awesome. Thanks, rot, for exposing to all of us the real truth, that you are a beholden slave. We always knew it anyway.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic

OMG you are clueless.

No, you are clueless, but it is part of being a libertarian, you all know unless you suck everyone into your little pyramid scheme cult it is just another utopian fantasy.

And whats sad is if your going to be a radical wingnut, sorry, commies have all the chicks, socialism at least has actual countries that are doing well, in some ways better then the US, and all you all have is this cult-like annoyance with the world becasue they don't buy into the libertarian fantasy, that's the most annoying part of a "realitst" they are social outcasts pretty much by choice and have no clue what is real anymore anyway.

Oh well, the most annoying former neocon wingnuts will come over to the pseudo-libertarian side for awhile, -enjoy.

"Commies have all the chicks"??? WTF is that stupidity? Sorry, pal, but I'm 35 and I already found the woman of my dreams.


You know, you can always tell a con by how they tell you it's "do this or else" something unrealitiscally terrible will happen, and rot, you're a con and a half.

 

[Steeplerot]

Anyhow, read the article, it does a good point of owning your cult again and again.

Care to refute anything in my link?

I am sure you know cons well too, btw try not to bore her too much with this economic crap, or a evil socialist will show her what "sharing" is all about :laugh:

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Anyhow, read the article, it does a good point of owning your cult again and again.

Care to refute anything in my link?

Objectivity and individual freedom are the antithesis of cult, brainwashed one.

I am sure you know cons well too, btw try not to bore her too much with this economic crap, or a evil socialist will show her what "sharing" is all about

The problem with your idea of "sharing," rot, is that it only moves in one direction.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Vic

Objectivity and individual freedom are the antithesis of cult, brainwashed one.

[/quote]

Freedom, by giving us choice, supposedly embraces all other goods.

But this violates common sense by denying that anything is good by nature, independently of whether we choose it.

Nourishing foods are good for us by nature, not because we choose to eat them. Taken to its logical conclusion, the reduction of the good to the freely chosen means there are no inherently good or bad choices at all, but that a man who chose to spend his life playing tiddlywinks has lived as worthy a life as a Washington or a Churchill.


You are a tool Vic, a pretty convinced one, but still just another tool waiting to get fooled again.

You wave that word around "Freedom" yet you have no clue what you are using it for except a buzzword.

Let's keep the symbols and symbology to the symbol minded.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic

OMG you are clueless.

No, you are clueless, but it is part of being a libertarian, you all know unless you suck everyone into your little pyramid scheme cult it is just another utopian fantasy.

And whats sad is if your going to be a radical wingnut, sorry, commies have all the chicks, socialism at least has actual countries that are doing well, in some ways better then the US, and all you all have is this cult-like annoyance with the world becasue they don't buy into the libertarian fantasy, that's the most annoying part of a "realitst" they are social outcasts pretty much by choice and have no clue what is real anymore anyway.

Oh well, the most annoying former neocon wingnuts will come over to the pseudo-libertarian side for awhile, -enjoy.

Indeed, the Soviet Union, Cuba, N Korea,Vietnam, and soon Venezuela are models or Socialism at its finest.

China you ask? They decided long ago Socialism is a failed experiement and more open markets are the way to go.

Look at Scandinavia recently?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Anyhow, read the article, it does a good point of owning your cult again and again.

Care to refute anything in my link?

I am sure you know cons well too, btw try not to bore her too much with this economic crap, or a evil socialist will show her what "sharing" is all about :laugh:

If I follow this correctly, which I doubt that I do, since I never 'think' much at all, he is saying that you are a slave because you feel a responsibility to family and the related issues of having an interest in prosperity and security.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic

Objectivity and individual freedom are the antithesis of cult, brainwashed one.

Freedom, by giving us choice, supposedly embraces all other goods.

But this violates common sense by denying that anything is good by nature, independently of whether we choose it.

Nourishing foods are good for us by nature, not because we choose to eat them. Taken to its logical conclusion, the reduction of the good to the freely chosen means there are no inherently good or bad choices at all, but that a man who chose to spend his life playing tiddlywinks has lived as worthy a life as a Washington or a Churchill.


You are a tool Vic, a pretty convinced one, but still just another tool waiting to get fooled again.[/quote]
Where did I deny that anything is good for us by nature? Do you just take a sh!t and then post the contents here or what? It is the socialist philosophy that says that a tiddlywinker is as good as a Washington or a Churchill. Remember, you hate classical liberalism because liberty allowed both of those great men to become rich. And that "unfair" because their greatness didn't "share" with us. Or did you somehow forget that? :roll:

And thanks.... you're delusional useful idiot tool. A pawn for the old money mega rich that would enslave all humanity. Too bad you're too fsckin' stupid to see the obvious.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic

OMG you are clueless.

No, you are clueless, but it is part of being a libertarian, you all know unless you suck everyone into your little pyramid scheme cult it is just another utopian fantasy.

And whats sad is if your going to be a radical wingnut, sorry, commies have all the chicks, socialism at least has actual countries that are doing well, in some ways better then the US, and all you all have is this cult-like annoyance with the world becasue they don't buy into the libertarian fantasy, that's the most annoying part of a "realitst" they are social outcasts pretty much by choice and have no clue what is real anymore anyway.

Oh well, the most annoying former neocon wingnuts will come over to the pseudo-libertarian side for awhile, -enjoy.

Indeed, the Soviet Union, Cuba, N Korea,Vietnam, and soon Venezuela are models or Socialism at its finest.

China you ask? They decided long ago Socialism is a failed experiement and more open markets are the way to go.

Look at Scandinavia recently?

Their standard of living and unemployment rate would be considered unacceptable here in the US.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Anyhow, read the article, it does a good point of owning your cult again and again.

Care to refute anything in my link?

I am sure you know cons well too, btw try not to bore her too much with this economic crap, or a evil socialist will show her what "sharing" is all about :laugh:

If I follow this correctly, which I doubt that I do, since I never 'think' much at all, he is saying that you are a slave because you feel a responsibility to family and the related issues of having an interest in prosperity and security.

You definitely don't, Moonie. Family is the province of the individual, not the state. As I told Prince of Wands here the other day, the greatest accomplishment a person can ever make is to provide enough benefit to his fellow humans that they pay him enough profits to be able to feed his children.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Vic

(You are) a pawn for the old money mega rich that would enslave all humanity. Too bad you're too fsckin' stupid to see the obvious.

:laugh:

Now theres that reasoned debate libertarians are so good at, in other words your a fundamentalist headcase and everyone else is too fvckin stupid to play along becasue your cult of economic voodoomen tell you YOUR WAY IS RIGHT.

amen Vic, fvckin amen brotha. Keep an eye out for that New World Order conspiracy too, I hear they are coming for all you rugged individualists now that the socialists have taken back over, keep an eye in the sky.

Some good Libertarian reading

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Anyhow, read the article, it does a good point of owning your cult again and again.

Care to refute anything in my link?

I am sure you know cons well too, btw try not to bore her too much with this economic crap, or a evil socialist will show her what "sharing" is all about :laugh:

If I follow this correctly, which I doubt that I do, since I never 'think' much at all, he is saying that you are a slave because you feel a responsibility to family and the related issues of having an interest in prosperity and security.

You definitely don't, Moonie. Family is the province of the individual, not the state. As I told Prince of Wands here the other day, the greatest accomplishment a person can ever make is to provide enough benefit to his fellow humans that they pay him enough profits to be able to feed his children.

Then perhaps you could better explain what you mean by the following:

"The most fundamental problem with libertarianism is very simple: freedom, though a good thing, is simply not the only good thing in life. Simple physical security, which even a prisoner can possess, is not freedom, but one cannot live without it. Prosperity is connected to freedom, in that it makes us free to consume, but it is not the same thing, in that one can be rich but as unfree as a Victorian tycoon?s wife. A family is in fact one of the least free things imaginable, as the emotional satisfactions of it derive from relations that we are either born into without choice or, once they are chosen, entail obligations that we cannot walk away from with ease or justice. But security, prosperity, and family are in fact the bulk of happiness for most real people and the principal issues that concern governments."

I love the 2nd paragraph (In quotes directly above). That is awesome. Thanks, rot, for exposing to all of us the real truth, that you are a beholden slave. We always knew it anyway.

When you say it's awesome what do you mean. How is he a beholden slave. And note, that as far as I am concerned his telling you he will get all the girls isn't any different than you telling him he is a fool. Am I to infer, therefore, that your points too are also some king of propaganda?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic

(You are) a pawn for the old money mega rich that would enslave all humanity. Too bad you're too fsckin' stupid to see the obvious.

:laugh:

Now theres that reasoned debate libertarians are so good at, in other words your a fundamentalist headcase and everyone else is too fvckin stupid to play along becasue your cult of economic voodoomen tell you YOUR WAY IS RIGHT.

amen Vic, fvckin amen brotha. Keep an eye out for that New World Order conspiracy too, I hear they are coming for all you rugged individualists now that the socialists have taken back over, keep an eye in the sky.

Some good Libertarian reading

What about Washington and Churchill, rot? Oh, that's right, you edited my rebuttal out, then posted in your troll pretending you were responding to me...

edit: I love that link BTW. Do you think they could have dumbed it down ANY further?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Anyhow, read the article, it does a good point of owning your cult again and again.

Care to refute anything in my link?

I am sure you know cons well too, btw try not to bore her too much with this economic crap, or a evil socialist will show her what "sharing" is all about :laugh:

If I follow this correctly, which I doubt that I do, since I never 'think' much at all, he is saying that you are a slave because you feel a responsibility to family and the related issues of having an interest in prosperity and security.

You definitely don't, Moonie. Family is the province of the individual, not the state. As I told Prince of Wands here the other day, the greatest accomplishment a person can ever make is to provide enough benefit to his fellow humans that they pay him enough profits to be able to feed his children.

Then perhaps you could better explain what you mean by the following:

"The most fundamental problem with libertarianism is very simple: freedom, though a good thing, is simply not the only good thing in life. Simple physical security, which even a prisoner can possess, is not freedom, but one cannot live without it. Prosperity is connected to freedom, in that it makes us free to consume, but it is not the same thing, in that one can be rich but as unfree as a Victorian tycoon?s wife. A family is in fact one of the least free things imaginable, as the emotional satisfactions of it derive from relations that we are either born into without choice or, once they are chosen, entail obligations that we cannot walk away from with ease or justice. But security, prosperity, and family are in fact the bulk of happiness for most real people and the principal issues that concern governments."

I love the 2nd paragraph (In quotes directly above). That is awesome. Thanks, rot, for exposing to all of us the real truth, that you are a beholden slave. We always knew it anyway.

When you say it's awesome what do you mean. How is he a beholden slave. And note, that as far as I am concerned his telling you he will get all the girls isn't any different than you telling him he is a fool. Am I to infer, therefore, that your points too are also some king of propaganda?

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom ? go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!" - Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Vic

edit: I love that link BTW. Do you think they could have dumbed it down ANY further?

Sorry, forgot, I am not libertarian so I am not an intellectual elitest worthy of your "Realism".






Beware the Conservatives that would put civilization back 50 years. Moreso beware the Libertarian that would put it back by 5000.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic

edit: I love that link BTW. Do you think they could have dumbed it down ANY further?

Sorry, forgot, I am not libertarian so I am not an intellectual elitest worthy of your "Realism".






Beware the Conservatives that would put civilization back 50 years. Moreso beware the Libertarian that would put it back by 5000.

Pal, your socialism is what would put back civilization back 5000 years. It's the return of the good king... he'll take good care of us, you'll see.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Anyhow, read the article, it does a good point of owning your cult again and again.

Care to refute anything in my link?

I am sure you know cons well too, btw try not to bore her too much with this economic crap, or a evil socialist will show her what "sharing" is all about :laugh:

If I follow this correctly, which I doubt that I do, since I never 'think' much at all, he is saying that you are a slave because you feel a responsibility to family and the related issues of having an interest in prosperity and security.

You definitely don't, Moonie. Family is the province of the individual, not the state. As I told Prince of Wands here the other day, the greatest accomplishment a person can ever make is to provide enough benefit to his fellow humans that they pay him enough profits to be able to feed his children.

Then perhaps you could better explain what you mean by the following:

"The most fundamental problem with libertarianism is very simple: freedom, though a good thing, is simply not the only good thing in life. Simple physical security, which even a prisoner can possess, is not freedom, but one cannot live without it. Prosperity is connected to freedom, in that it makes us free to consume, but it is not the same thing, in that one can be rich but as unfree as a Victorian tycoon?s wife. A family is in fact one of the least free things imaginable, as the emotional satisfactions of it derive from relations that we are either born into without choice or, once they are chosen, entail obligations that we cannot walk away from with ease or justice. But security, prosperity, and family are in fact the bulk of happiness for most real people and the principal issues that concern governments."

I love the 2nd paragraph (In quotes directly above). That is awesome. Thanks, rot, for exposing to all of us the real truth, that you are a beholden slave. We always knew it anyway.

When you say it's awesome what do you mean. How is he a beholden slave. And note, that as far as I am concerned his telling you he will get all the girls isn't any different than you telling him he is a fool. Am I to infer, therefore, that your points too are also some king of propaganda?

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom ? go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!" - Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776

My my my, such magniloquence in the face of tragedy. Today I would expect something more along the lines of, "Look what those f@ckers done to us!"

Anyway I didn't understand what point you were trying to make and still don't.

 

[db]

"Libertarianism is often viewed as a right-wing movement, especially by non-libertarians in the United States, where libertarians tend to have more in common with traditional conservatives than American liberals, especially with regard to economic and gun control policies. However, many describe libertarians as being "conservative" on economic issues and "liberal" on social issues."
link

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Wow, good job everyone for keeping this thread on topic by recommending libertarian books and not sliding off into the usual old debate on libertarianism thats been done here a million times...