Li-ion batteries to replace lead-acid batteries in cars?

vailr

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Question: would it be difficult to replace current lead-acid "cold crank" batteries found in (non-electric, gasoline fueled) cars with a Lithium-ion battery pack? Using the exact same Li-ion battery type used in the Tesla, Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt and other all-electric pwered vehicles.
 

fralexandr

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I believe the kia niro hybrid already does this. It has 2 lithium packs, I think one is for the electric side and a smaller one for the gas engine side. It supposedly has a button somewhere to jump itself with the larger pack.
 

Red Squirrel

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I think what makes lead acid batteries great is that they can be float charged. It makes systems very simple to design. Ex: the alternator does not have to care about the current going into the cells, just voltage. Lithium ion cells need to be balanced charged and the current/voltage curve for each cell is very critical. So it makes the charging system much more complex as you need to monitor how much current is going into each cell and adjust the voltage so that it fits a certain profile. If this is not done right, ka boom. In an automotive setting this is tricky as you also have to account for thermal coefficients in the semiconductors/cells as there are such high temperature ranges. Of course it can be done - it's done with electric cars, it's just that it's more complex. I imagine in a racing car it would be worth it though. Anything to get some weight reduction.
 

Ken g6

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So it makes the charging system much more complex as you need to monitor how much current is going into each cell and adjust the voltage so that it fits a certain profile. If this is not done right, ka boom.
Lithium isn't the problem. I think cobalt is the problem. Oh, the iron-y (battery).

It seems like, with a better battery, you could make a very-mild-hybrid car where the alternator is disconnected when accelerating and/or when the battery is sufficiently charged, and almost always connects when slowing down.
 

PeterScott

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Question: would it be difficult to replace current lead-acid "cold crank" batteries found in (non-electric, gasoline fueled) cars with a Lithium-ion battery pack? Using the exact same Li-ion battery type used in the Tesla, Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt and other all-electric pwered vehicles.

The Funny thing, is that AFAIK, all those Pure Electric cars still have 12V lead Acid batteries. If it fails the car is going nowhere: Our Bolt is Back or How a 12-Volt Battery Can Kill an Electric Car

Lead Acid is definitely something that could use replacing, at the very least, you think they wouldn't bother with Lead Acid in a pure EV.
 

vailr

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Oct 9, 1999
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The Funny thing, is that AFAIK, all those Pure Electric cars still have 12V lead Acid batteries. If it fails the car is going nowhere: Our Bolt is Back or How a 12-Volt Battery Can Kill an Electric Car

Lead Acid is definitely something that could use replacing, at the very least, you think they wouldn't bother with Lead Acid in a pure EV.

Thanks for the linked article. Was not aware about lead-acid batteries still being used in all-electric vehicles. Maybe (?) a lead-acid battery provides more reserve amps than what a Li-ion battery could provide, especially when outside temperatures are sub-zero.
 

Red Squirrel

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The Funny thing, is that AFAIK, all those Pure Electric cars still have 12V lead Acid batteries. If it fails the car is going nowhere: Our Bolt is Back or How a 12-Volt Battery Can Kill an Electric Car

Lead Acid is definitely something that could use replacing, at the very least, you think they wouldn't bother with Lead Acid in a pure EV.

Wow you know the car is REALLY dead when they have to use a flat bed. I guess it locked all the wheels or something too. Seems like poor design though, you'd think there would be some kind of fail safe to use the big battery to generate the 12v needed for the accessories, computer etc.
 
Last edited:
Mar 11, 2004
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The Funny thing, is that AFAIK, all those Pure Electric cars still have 12V lead Acid batteries. If it fails the car is going nowhere: Our Bolt is Back or How a 12-Volt Battery Can Kill an Electric Car

Lead Acid is definitely something that could use replacing, at the very least, you think they wouldn't bother with Lead Acid in a pure EV.

Its because certain systems are still running on the 12V system because that's the industry standard. But that's changing, they're moving to 48V for all cars, which will enable pretty much everything to become hybrid (most will be "mild hybrid" where they have a small electric motor that serves for the initial restart when shutting the engine off at lights and when stopped, and it'll be used to recharge the battery to power the other systems).
 
Mar 11, 2004
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Thanks for the linked article. Was not aware about lead-acid batteries still being used in all-electric vehicles. Maybe (?) a lead-acid battery provides more reserve amps than what a Li-ion battery could provide, especially when outside temperatures are sub-zero.

Its because they're using off the shelf systems for other parts (electric stuff like radio/keyfob and the like for instance) that operate on 12V system as that has been the industry standard for decades.

Wow you know the care is REALLY dead when they have to use a flat bed. I guess it locked all the wheels or something too. Seems like poor design though, you'd think there would be some kind of fail safe to use the big battery to generate the 12v needed for the accessories, computer etc.

I think the 12V system manages some critical components (key system for instance) because they're using some of that from normal cars (so they don't have to develop all new components yet, they can use some off the shelf stuff and transition there). They'll get there, but in the meantime, yeah there'll be some stuff like this happening.

Oh, and also since so many electric cars and hybrids (even many other normal cars these days too) have the battery inside the passenger compartment, they need to be sealed and/or have their own external ventilation because otherwise they can emit gas that can kill you. There was some woman that had a Porsche SUV and the wrong type of battery was put in it, ended up killing her and her baby.
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/hydrogen-sulfide-death-in-vehicle.2488302/

The Prius is really weird in some way. It has a unique 12V battery, but the main battery has a vent (for cooling) that's in the backseat (there's a little vent up by the shoulder of the rear seat on the passenger side), and so the A/C system is actually kinda critical. And it uses a different A/C setup (has an electric compressor, where the coolant is also the lubricating fluid or something? the compressor is actually inside the fluid loop I belive), so it needs special coolant. The engine and the electric motor have their own separate coolant as well (although they use the same coolant in both, its a non-conductive type, but they have their own individual, probably just to keep people from pouring normal coolant in if they shared it and it was low on coolant and didn't realize you need the special coolant). Lots of little weird stuff like that (the hydraulic brakes have their own separate system that is different from normal cars, which you don't use the hydraulic brakes too much in the Prius as it uses the motor most of the time for deceleration as the regenerative braking system; but anyway you need to manage the hydraulic brake system different than in a normal car). Which if you're aware of it its not bad as plenty of it is actually pretty easy to manage, and there's quite a bit of resources out now for how to do it. You just need to be aware of this stuff (and a lot of people aren't).

Here in Phoenix there's several independent mechanics that specialize in hybrid vehicles so that's nice, but in rural areas you'd be stuck going to the dealer which would be a pain (the small town I grew up in, the closest Toyota dealership was a good hour away).
 

PeterScott

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Its because certain systems are still running on the 12V system because that's the industry standard. But that's changing, they're moving to 48V for all cars, which will enable pretty much everything to become hybrid (most will be "mild hybrid" where they have a small electric motor that serves for the initial restart when shutting the engine off at lights and when stopped, and it'll be used to recharge the battery to power the other systems).

That is why they still have a separated 12V battery.

But the reasons to keep it Lead Acid aren't that strong. It could just be a small separate 12V Lithium pack.

12V Lithium is problematic as a starter battery replacement, for gas cars, because of the the way alternator just keeps dumping power into the battery, but in an EV without an alternator, your are going to need a specific charging circuit anyway, and you can tailor it to a lithium pack.

There are enough EV makers now that I am surprised the don't get together and specify a 12V Lithium pack that can inexpensively cover their 12V needs.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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That is why they still have a separated 12V battery.

But the reasons to keep it Lead Acid aren't that strong. It could just be a small separate 12V Lithium pack.

12V Lithium is problematic as a starter battery replacement, for gas cars, because of the the way alternator just keeps dumping power into the battery, but in an EV without an alternator, your are going to need a specific charging circuit anyway, and you can tailor it to a lithium pack.

There are enough EV makers now that I am surprised the don't get together and specify a 12V Lithium pack that can inexpensively cover their 12V needs.

Its the same reason for that though: $$$. They also require a special management system to make the charging activity suit lithium ion, that is extra cost. I seem to recall some saying that the load/charge/etc can wear lithium ion out pretty quickly, but I think that might've been made up or was true like 2 decades ago or something and not with newer battery tech. Or that's why it needs the special management system or else you'll be looking at replacing a more expensive battery more often (which consumers will not be fans of).

I think the newer 48V systems are moving to lithium ion. But, uh, I guess they're keeping the 12V battery as well, so I guess I was wrong that it was changing that.

https://jalopnik.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-upcoming-48-volt-1790364465

Oh and for your last point, why even do that? Why not just stepdown from the main battery pack? Apparently right now, the traction battery if shut down when the car is off and the 12V system actuates the system that then starts the main battery pack. I'm guess there's some reason for this (possibly to keep it from draining in "standby" or maybe there's some potential risk so its better to just shut the battery off; it might have something to do with charging systems or something too; in electric cars they already step down the main battery to recharge the 12V, so they could obviously do that to power the 12V systems). I'm curious now as this just seems baffling to me. Why not implement some pedal crank system (where you pump the brake pedal 3 times) to startup the systems that then startup the main battery.
 

PeterScott

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Its the same reason for that though: $$$. They also require a special management system to make the charging activity suit lithium ion, that is extra cost.

It's not really special. You just need a charging circuit that doesn't act like an alternator. Toys these days have proper Lithium charging circuits. There is nothing to this. When you have an EV you need a charging circuity tailed to they type of battery you have. So you need a circuit regardless of which battery type you use. I seriously doubt there is even $1 difference in the price of the different types of charging circuits.

The only real cost difference is between a Lithium battery and Lead Acid Battery. Lithium Batteries are only about $150/KWh, and you need less than half of that to match a Lead Acid Starter in capacity AFAIK. There might be tens of dollars difference here in basic costs, and some more in economies of scale differences. But if the EV manufacturers got together, the economies of scale differences would shrink significantly.

Oh and for your last point, why even do that? Why not just stepdown from the main battery pack? Apparently right now, the traction battery if shut down when the car is off and the 12V system actuates the system that then starts the main battery pack. I'm guess there's some reason for this ...

I think you partially answer your own question. They disconnect the main pack. Since they apparently all do this, there is probably some efficiency concerns, maybe even safety concerns, with that massive pack connected all the time, drawing even small amounts of power.
 

repoman0

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Jun 17, 2010
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People on another forum I go to spend $700 for 12V lithium ion battery replacements. Why? 50 lbs off the rear of the car. It's actually a pretty good value in terms of weight savings per dollar.