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DrPizza

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Yep. Pretty basic relativity stuff.
Just checked which video you had - I had marked that particular video as the favorite of last year's physics students (on that topic.) It's a little simplified, even the energy to mass part of it - it doesn't simply reach a certain speed, then the remaining energy is turned into mass after that.
 
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It makes me think :
Suppose you have a transverse wave and you are a point on that wave. As long as you do not move at the same speed as the traveling tranverse wave or near the same speed of that traveling transverse wave, what happens then ?

waves.jpg
 

Born2bwire

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Oct 28, 2005
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I didn't know that energy added to the protons when they are travelling near c gets converted into mass. I thought it would be just wasted and thrown off as heat.

Learn somethin new everyday!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQNpucos9wc&feature=related

A neat lab I did way back when in high school involved a bubble chamber (not that we actually had one mind you). We had pictures from a bubble chamber and using overlays we could measure the curvature of the bubble tracks. Using this information and by identifying the decays from the patterns we could calculate the energies and particles involved. It was actually pretty accurate considering the coarse measuring methods and you did have to keep in mind the added effects of relativity to do it properly.

I haven't been to the LHC but I've been to FermiLab and Argonne's Advanced Photon Source. You really have to see these things to believe, the scales just do not translate from pictures. Fermi's D-Zero detector was out for upgrades when I saw it and it's the size of a house.
 
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I have been to the mea at nikhef a few times before the accelerator was decommissioned. ^_^
Because of the mutual electronics connection, i was able to get a special tour to see parts of the linear accelerator that are normally not permitted to enter and get explanations normally not given. It sparked my interest into the world of physics.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
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Yep. Pretty basic relativity stuff.
Just checked which video you had - I had marked that particular video as the favorite of last year's physics students (on that topic.) It's a little simplified, even the energy to mass part of it - it doesn't simply reach a certain speed, then the remaining energy is turned into mass after that.

Interesting. The video states that there is a point when the transition from acceleration to increased mass occurs, but that is wrong?

So what you're saying is that as you approach c, the mass of the protons increases gradually? Is it exponentially? If so I think by point of transition they mean the part of the exponential curve that transitions from horizontal to vertical. Where the slope of the line at that point would be 45 degrees. Not really a point, but a curve where it transitions fast from one to the other. In terms of time it may occur suddenly to an observer? Or is the video just plain wrong in making that statement?

In the video they state the transition point is at 99.9c where no further energy will be translated into acceleration, but they don't state what happens before 99.9c. I assume it gradually adds to mass more and more and less and less to acceleration. Is there a graph or formula that shows how that change occurs?
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
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A neat lab I did way back when in high school involved a bubble chamber (not that we actually had one mind you). We had pictures from a bubble chamber and using overlays we could measure the curvature of the bubble tracks. Using this information and by identifying the decays from the patterns we could calculate the energies and particles involved. It was actually pretty accurate considering the coarse measuring methods and you did have to keep in mind the added effects of relativity to do it properly.

I haven't been to the LHC but I've been to FermiLab and Argonne's Advanced Photon Source. You really have to see these things to believe, the scales just do not translate from pictures. Fermi's D-Zero detector was out for upgrades when I saw it and it's the size of a house.

You went to a heck of a nice high school! We didn't do anything that advanced in H.S. here. I can only imagine how imposing it must look in person. All i have seen is pictures such as this one which shows how small a person looks by comparison:
lhc.jpg


http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jan/002

Mind you as big and powerful as it is, I have a feeling they are not going to find the higgs boson anytime soon. As powerful as it is, and it is 3 times more powerful than ever built before it, I just don't think it is powerful enough. I think we are reaching the limit of what we can discover this way. You know the old law of diminishing returns...

Well here's to hoping I am wrong and they do discover something exciting soon.
 

DrPizza

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It doesn't matter what you "think." It's more than powerful enough. They've narrowed down the range in which to search for the Higgs - somewhere between 114 GeV/c² & 185GeV/c². LHC is more than powerful enough to cover that range. The Tevatron collider already narrowed that range further, eliminating about a fourth of the possibilities. If they don't don't find it at the LHC, there is no Higgs, period.

If I recall correctly, both CMS and Atlas are the detectors that will actually search for the Higgs. LHCb "sees where the antimatter's gone, Alice looks at collisions of lead ions." (I love the large hadron rap - I make my students listen to it a couple of times, then give them a quiz on the LHC. Amazing how many things are packed into one little song.
 

Mark R

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Oct 9, 1999
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Interesting. The video states that there is a point when the transition from acceleration to increased mass occurs, but that is wrong?

So what you're saying is that as you approach c, the mass of the protons increases gradually? Is it exponentially? If so I think by point of transition they mean the part of the exponential curve that transitions from horizontal to vertical. Where the slope of the line at that point would be 45 degrees. Not really a point, but a curve where it transitions fast from one to the other. In terms of time it may occur suddenly to an observer? Or is the video just plain wrong in making that statement?

In the video they state the transition point is at 99.9c where no further energy will be translated into acceleration, but they don't state what happens before 99.9c. I assume it gradually adds to mass more and more and less and less to acceleration. Is there a graph or formula that shows how that change occurs?

There is no transition point - and, yes, the video is not exactly correct when it suggests that there is.

In daily life we are used to the Newtonian principles where acceleration in response to a constant force is constant, regardless of velocity - and the quantitative expression of kinetic energy that results; KE = 0.5 x mv^2.

In relativistic mechanics, kinetic energy increases exponentially as v approaches c. KE = mc² (ˠ-1) where ˠ = 1/sqrt (1-v²/c²). In other words, as a particle approaches the speed of light, it gets very rapidly more difficult to accelerate - becoming impossible to accelerate to the speed of light; at near light speed, adding/removing energy changes the velocity only extremely slightly.

So what about the mass? Well, relativity makes things a bit awkward, because there are 2 definitions of mass.

One definition is the 'rest mass'. This is the mass of a particle, at rest. This value never changes, as it's definition implies that it was measured at rest (or measured by an observer who is traveling together with the particle). It's the value of 'm' I've used in the above equations.

But what happens if you are not traveling with the particle (you are standing still and a particle whizzes past you)? Or if you have a bunch of particles, which as a whole aren't moving (e.g. a bunch of particles inside a container, but the container isn't moving)? In this definition mass is nothing more than a reflection of the total energy. In other words, E = mc² - where E is the total energy in the system (the amount of energy you would get from destroying the 'rest mass' + any other other energy that you have added). So if I have a bunch of particles in a box, and I boost their kinetic energy (e.g. by heating). So, if I take a box full of gas, and heat it up, boosting the kinetic energy of the gas molecules, I actually increase the mass of the contents of the box - by virtue of the fact that I have added energy to the contents of the box.

So, if I take a proton which has a rest mass of 1.672 x 10^-27 kg. I could express the mass by its energy equivalence: 1.50 x 10^-10 J (or in more commonly used units 940 MeV). If I now accelerate the proton and add 1.5 x 10^-7 J (940 GeV) of kinetic energy, by the mass-energy equivalence definition above, I can equally well say that the mass of the proton has been increased by 1.67 x 10^-24 kg.

I've drawn a graph of how velocity and kinetic energy ("added mass") go together.
rel.png


You can see that below about 0.5 c, the KE is almost exactly equal to 0.5 mv². But the curve rapidly steepens as c is approached, where changing velocity even marginally requires vast amounts of energy. However, you'll notice that by approximately 0.9 c, the mass of the particle is approximately doubled (by mass-energy equivalence).
 
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Amazing.
May be an "ignorant" remark, but it looks similar like the current voltage graph of a diode turned up side down. But inside are electrons accelerated by an electric field.
 
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