Let's Play "Spot the Irony!"

[Stopsignhank]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015...ment-wrath-for-refusing-to-make-cake-for-gay/

I spoke with Aaron Klein by telephone Monday night. He told me the judge’s ruling is a miscarriage of justice and an erosion of religious liberty.


“They’re trying to push us into the closet for being Christians,” he said.
Klein said it’s time for Americans to take a stand for religious liberty.
“The Founding Fathers said we have the inalienable rights given by God — not man,” he said. “Let’s exercise those rights.”

 

[NetGuySC]

I have never once read a story about a gay person who refused to serve a straight person at their place of buisness.

I have never seen gay people protesting against straight people marrying.

Gay people already tolerate straight folks all the time. 100% of the discrimination has been homophobic people against non-straight people. Therefore, the ones who have a wrong opinion, the ones who need to be tolerant, are the ones who are broken or of defective character, aka, the homophobes.

Why can't gays accept that people can have different opinions from them concerning homesexuality? If my religious beliefs does not include my agreeing with gay marriage why is my opinion any less real than a person whose opinion is that gay marriage is great? I do not believe there is a right or wrong opinion, there are just opinions. Why can't gays respect my opinions and religious beliefs? Many believe that gays have the wrong opinion and they are the ones that need to be tolerant. Why force someone who does not approve of gay marriage, to work for you when there are other people who will do the same work and approve of gay marriage?

 

[Perknose]

Owner had to close due to threats of murder, actually. Which is decidedly fucked up.

They are actually still open for business on the web, and never closed their store until they lost their case meaning they . . . would have had to serve everyone.

Check the Bible quote they post:

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight" Proverbs 3:5-6

But, yeah, there were death threats alright, helped along by the "Christian" bakery owner:

A same-sex couple says they received death threats after a Gresham bakery refused to make their wedding cake, and the story went national.

[...]

Bowman Cryer said she felt humiliated and depressed when the company Sweet Cakes by Melissa refused to bake a cake for her same sex wedding.

She testified that things got worse after her personal contact information was posted on Facebook by the bakery’s owner, Aaron Klein. Bowman Cryer said she received hate mail and feared for her life and her wife’s.

 

[dank69]

Why can't gays accept that people can have different opinions from them concerning homesexuality? If my religious beliefs does not include my agreeing with gay marriage why is my opinion any less real than a person whose opinion is that gay marriage is great? I do not believe there is a right or wrong opinion, there are just opinions. Why can't gays respect my opinions and religious beliefs? Many believe that gays have the wrong opinion and they are the ones that need to be tolerant. Why force someone who does not approve of gay marriage, to work for you when there are other people who will do the same work and approve of gay marriage?

Switch out the word gay with the word interracial to see why you are wrong.

 

[jhu]

Why can't gays accept that people can have different opinions from them concerning homesexuality? If my religious beliefs does not include my agreeing with gay marriage why is my opinion any less real than a person whose opinion is that gay marriage is great? I do not believe there is a right or wrong opinion, there are just opinions. Why can't gays respect my opinions and religious beliefs? Many believe that gays have the wrong opinion and they are the ones that need to be tolerant. Why force someone who does not approve of gay marriage, to work for you when there are other people who will do the same work and approve of gay marriage?

Why can't blacks accept that people can have different opinions from them concerning their blackness? If my religious beliefs does not include my agreeing with blacks, why is my opinion any less real than a person whose opinion is that blacks are great? I do not believe there is a right or wrong opinion, there are just opinions. Why can't blacks respect my opinions and religious beliefs? Many believe that blacks have the wrong opinion and they are the ones that need to be tolerant. Why force someone who does not approve of blacks, to work for you when there are other people who will do the same work and approve of blacks?

 

[NetGuySC]

So a baker, who for religious reasons, does not want to make a cake for a gay wedding, should be forced to because if that potential customer was black, instead of gay, then it would be wrong to not want to make the cake?

Is this really your counter argument?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Why can't gays accept that people can have different opinions from them concerning homesexuality? If my religious beliefs does not include my agreeing with gay marriage why is my opinion any less real than a person whose opinion is that gay marriage is great? I do not believe there is a right or wrong opinion, there are just opinions. Why can't gays respect my opinions and religious beliefs? Many believe that gays have the wrong opinion and they are the ones that need to be tolerant. Why force someone who does not approve of gay marriage, to work for you when there are other people who will do the same work and approve of gay marriage?

No one is forcing you to approve of gay marriage. What they are forcing you to do is abide by a social contract that decrees that businesses that serve the public cannot discriminate against certain groups of people when deciding whether or not to to do business with them. I may have a deep-seated dislike of handicapped people (they always get the best parking spots; how is that fair?), but if someone comes into my bakery in a wheelchair, I can't refuse them service based on those personal feelings. And that's something I already agreed to when I registered my business with the state; I don't get to arbitrarily decide not to abide by public accommodations laws when it suits me. If you don't want to do business with a protected group, don't start a business.

As for your point about "why force these people when there are others who will do the same work and approve of gay marriage;" what if there aren't? What if you live in a small town with two bakeries and neither one serves gays? I don't know if you live in a big city seeing as how you seem to think everyone has multiple options easily available, but there are plenty of places in the country where "just go to the other specialty shop" is literally not an option because there isn't one. Should we require gays to drive miles out of their way to find business owners who are willing to do business with them solely because certain areas have a lot of deep-seated prejudice? That seems a little bit intolerant, no?

 

[dank69]

Why can't blacks accept that people can have different opinions from them concerning their blackness? If my religious beliefs does not include my agreeing with blacks, why is my opinion any less real than a person whose opinion is that blacks are great? I do not believe there is a right or wrong opinion, there are just opinions. Why can't blacks respect my opinions and religious beliefs? Many believe that blacks have the wrong opinion and they are the ones that need to be tolerant. Why force someone who does not approve of blacks, to work for you when there are other people who will do the same work and approve of blacks?

Better:

Why can't interracial couples accept that people can have different opinions from them concerning interracial marriages? If my religious beliefs does[sic] not include my agreeing with interracial marriage why is my opinion any less real than a person whose opinion is that interracial marriage is great? I do not believe there is a right or wrong opinion, there are just opinions. Why can't interracial couples respect my opinions and religious beliefs? Many believe that interracial couples have the wrong opinion and they are the ones that need to be tolerant. Why force someone who does not approve of interracial marriage, to work for you when there are other people who will do the same work and approve of interracial marriage?

 

[dank69]

So a baker, who for religious reasons, does not want to make a cake for a gay wedding, should be forced to because if that potential customer was black, instead of gay, then it would be wrong to not want to make the cake?

Is this really your counter argument?

Do you think it would be wrong to deny service to black people?

 

[NetGuySC]

Can a god loving, gay, black business owner legally refuse to cater any event that he religiously disagrees with?

If he did wish to deny service does that make him racist against black people?

 

[dank69]

Can a god loving, gay, black business owner legally refuse to cater any event that he religiously disagrees with?

If he did wish to deny service does that make him racist against black people?

Having trouble admitting your mistake I see. Please, carry on. Tell us more about how little you know about protected classes.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Can a god loving, gay, black business owner legally refuse to cater any event that he religiously disagrees with?

Depends on whether the nature of the disagreement falls under a protected class of people. KKK rally? He can refuse, since membership in a white supremacist organization is not a protected class for public accommodations. Religious event? He could not refuse since religion is a protected class. Granted, that's dumbing down the law a lot and there are a lot of intricacies that could allow or disallow specific refusals of events, but a business cannot have a blanket ban on working with individuals specifically based on a protected class (such as race, sex, religion, and, increasingly, sexual orientation).

 

[NetGuySC]

Depends on whether the nature of the disagreement falls under a protected class of people. KKK rally? He can refuse, since membership in a white supremacist organization is not a protected class for public accommodations. Religious event? He could not refuse since religion is a protected class. Granted, that's dumbing down the law a lot and there are a lot of intricacies that could allow or disallow specific refusals of events, but a business cannot have a blanket ban on working with individuals specifically based on a protected class (such as race, sex, religion, and, increasingly, sexual orientation).

Thank you

 

[BurnItDwn]

Why can't gays accept that people can have different opinions from them concerning homesexuality?

Nobody wants to be told they are bad/awful because they are different.
Picking on a minority is being intolerant.
A minority saying that they want to be equal is not intolerant.

Having an opinion that minorities are immoral, or are lesser, or not "real" people is an example of a wrong opinion. You may not like to hear that your opinion is wrong, but, that does not change the fact that your opinion is invalid.

If my religious beliefs does not include my agreeing with gay marriage why is my opinion any less real than a person whose opinion is that gay marriage is great?

If your religious belief is that you should not marry a gay person, then do not marry a gay person. You have 100% right to your religion.

That being said, you do not have the right to opress others who do not share the same belief as you. Also, your religious belief is wrong. Sorry, just wanted to let you know in case you did not know.

I do not believe there is a right or wrong opinion, there are just opinions.

This is another place where you are factually wrong. I can make up bullshit and claim it is opinion, but, it would still just be bullshit.

Why can't gays respect my opinions and religious beliefs?

Gays generally do respect other peoples opinions and religious beliefs. I was at a bar and they were playing metal, but then somebody put some weird madonna music in, and I critisized it, the gay guy who put it on made a joke, but we got along just fine even though my opinion is that black metal is awesome and madonna music kinda sucks. Now, if your "opinion" is "gay people should have less rights, maybe they should be stoned?" People wont respect that because it is blatantly discriminatory and absolutely evil and horrible.

Many believe that gays have the wrong opinion and they are the ones that need to be tolerant.

Gays are very tolerant, I have said this many many times. I have never been beat up or murdered or told that I was less than human for prefering to date women rather than men.

Why force someone who does not approve of gay marriage, to work for you when there are other people who will do the same work and approve of gay marriage?

So, if a gay couple were in a car crash, and they had a straight doctor at the scene, the doctor should have the right to not treat those people because they are gay married?

My problem is the whole "approve of" line.
Gay people do not need your approval, the just want to exercise their right to marriage. Your approval is irreverent, it is not a part of the equation. Intolerance 'not approving' of them.

Not tolerating your intolerance yes, you could spin it for the sake of your propaganda of virulent hatred to claim that people who wont put up with petty bullshit are the intolerant ones, but, I could put polish a turd just as well.

 

[Jaskalas]

You can be a bigot all you want.

You just can't deny other people their rights because of your bigotry.

It is my right to have that bakery serve me?

 

[Jaskalas]

They weren't denied service because of their orientation

Not sure I buy that notion.
Isn't it stated as much, or did the bakery wise up and figure out they had a mild case of the flu that day?

Incorrect

When you say they were denied service because of their orientation, you are talking about identity.

Like saying 'No Blacks allowed.'

Being black is part of your identity and you are being denied service because of who you are.

This is not the same. They were clearly not being denied because of who they were.

They were being denied because they were engaging in an activity the owner disagreed with. There is a tremendous difference between someone refusing to engage in an activity they disagree with and refusing to serve someone because of who they are.

Oh... you're one of those who thinks orientation is a... choice. How lovely...

 

[dank69]

It is my right to have that bakery serve me?

No, it is your right to not be discriminated against.

 

[Ruptga]

No, it is your right to not be discriminated against.

Which, by extension, means yes. Besides that, the spirit of the law is to ensure equal protection and equal access to all citizens that act in good faith.

 

[Jaskalas]

Aren't these constitutional protections meant for and specifically aimed against the government for the equal protection of the people?

Take free speech for example. Government may pass no law to restrict our freedom of expression. Do you intend to tell us free speech applies to private entities? Can private forums not ban anyone, because banning expression violates the 1st amendment?

On one hand you would have us believe people's rights extend beyond the government to private citizens. Bigots must serve everyone, just as the government must. On the other hand you would have us believe we cannot enforce free speech on private forums. If a constitutional right against bigotry applies to private citizens, then surely the right to free speech does as well.

 

[feralkid]

It is my right to have that bakery serve me?

Not if you are Black.


See how that works?

 

[Ruptga]

^^

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a landmark piece of civil rights legislation in the United States that outlawed discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. It ended unequal application of voter registration requirements and racial segregation in schools, at the workplace and by facilities that served the general public (known as "public accommodations").

All of the above are known as protected classes, and

On April 20, 2012, the EEOC went further and ruled that gender identity was also a protected class under the ban on sex discrimination found in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Aren't these constitutional protections meant for and specifically aimed against the government for the equal protection of the people?

Take free speech for example. Government may pass no law to restrict our freedom of expression. Do you intend to tell us free speech applies to private entities? Can private forums not ban anyone, because banning expression violates the 1st amendment?

On one hand you would have us believe people's rights extend beyond the government to private citizens. Bigots must serve everyone, just as the government must. On the other hand you would have us believe we cannot enforce free speech on private forums. If a constitutional right against bigotry applies to private citizens, then surely the right to free speech does as well.

Not if the private business sells products / services to the public, at which point they are bound by public accommodations laws. What part of this are you having trouble with? Your argument seems to be that government can't restrict how private businesses operate because that's not how the first amendment is structured... but it's not like the first amendment is the only law in our country. Just to use some examples, businesses can't use child labor or pay less than minimum wage or intentionally lie about what their products contain. There are massive books of laws that deal specifically with what businesses are allowed or not allowed to do; why is it difficult to grasp that discrimination law is included in there?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Not if the private business sells products / services to the public, at which point they are bound by public accommodations laws. What part of this are you having trouble with? Your argument seems to be that government can't restrict how private businesses operate because that's not how the first amendment is structured... but it's not like the first amendment is the only law in our country. Just to use some examples, businesses can't use child labor or pay less than minimum wage or intentionally lie about what their products contain. There are massive books of laws that deal specifically with what businesses are allowed or not allowed to do; why is it difficult to grasp that discrimination law is included in there?

Because gay people are bad, and they should feel bad.

 

[Ruptga]

Indiana backtracked or patched (depending on perspective) its recent religious freedom law.

The changes prohibit businesses from using the law as a defense in court for refusing "to offer or provide services, facilities, use of public accommodations, goods, employment, or housing" to any customers based on "race, color, religion, ancestry, age, national origin, disability, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, or United States military service."

 

[Jaepheth]

Boy that was fun.

Next Round!

(This one's pretty easy)