Let's discuss the underlying hatred...

busmaster11

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Mar 4, 2000
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Okay... I've spent the last three months watching nothing but CNN. I've seen all the reports of the WTC and Pentagon disasters, foreign and domestic reactions, anthrax, documentaries of Al Qaeda camps, the statements and positions of other Islamic and non-islamic countries, status updates of the war, the fight between Israel and Palestine, documentaries of Afghan people, and so on.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I would think that all of us here are reasonable and intelligent enough that when we encounter a conflict, we know enough to look for the underlying cause, instead of just doing damage control. So why is it that I don't see too much reporting and interpretations as to WHY? What drove all these Islamic millitants to hate America so much that they would kill us AND them just to get attention?

I know. for most people thats an easy question to answer. They're evil. Sure. Even Bush said it. They're pure evil and are only determined to destroy America - end of story. We're comfortable with that answer and leave it at that - so that we can be comfortable in our decision to support the war. (For the record, I strongly support our millitary actions, but am not too comfortable with it)

I don't buy that. That answer bugs me. These people are apparently desparate. Could it be that America is doing something unfair to these people and perpetuating it while turning a blind eye? Now don't get me wrong. I obviously don't support what any of these Al Qaeda people are doing. I support Bush, and have done so for three months.

The Bin Laden video that was released yesterday.... You know how CNN has reported that many people in Arab countries claim that it was fake? I think thats despicable. They should, and probably do know it is not, and should all know, whether they admit it or not, that Bin Laden is guilty. But why don't they come out and admit it? Because deep down inside, they support him, and some people even admit that. They turn a blind eye to the truth, that Bin Laden is behind terrible terrorist acts and deserve what we're doing to him. I think that part is easy for all of us to see. Let's get to "why" in a second...

What's not easy for us to see, is that maybe, just maybe we're doing the SAME thing. We turn a blind eye to the truth, that maybe we're doing something terrible, in a less dramatic way, to cause so many people to hate us so much they want to destroy our country.

What exactly are we doing? What is the truth I think we're all trying to ignore so we can feel good about ourselves? I'm not quite sure, though I have some ideas... It is my hope that someone can shed some light on it, so we can better understand the world and our impact on it.

For those that chose to flame me, you are ignoring the underlying question of "why?" Unless, of course, you subscribe to the idea that they are all pure evil.
 

novon

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Oct 9, 1999
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This may be a little cynical, but people here are selfish, and to be attached to self means you do not have a lot of compassion and understanding.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
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<< This may be a little cynical, but people here are selfish, and to be attached to self means you do not have a lot of compassion and understanding. >>



I don't know...I, for one, have done a lot of work to understand it.

I know infinitely more about the Israel-Palestine conflict than I did before Sept. 11, have read the Koran, began reading area news sources such as Al Ahram and Haaretz as well as getting what I can from the BBC, and started learning Arab

I'm sure I'm not the only one in America either...

For those that chose to flame me, you are ignoring the underlying question of "why?" Unless, of course, you subscribe to the idea that they are all pure evil.

I don't believe that (1) they are pure evil. Thinking that is a stupid extreme and gets you nowhere...

However, there's another extreme that is stupid too. Lots of anti-US folk and pro-US folk alike seem to repeat the point of view that (2) they were extremists whose opinion in no way reflects any sort of widespread thought.

These people are apparently desparate

There's no bigger BS than this...you have these guys confused with people starving in refugee camps and the like. These guys had some college education, came from middle class families and whatnot. Bin Laden especially. He could be livin' la vida loca with all his cash had he chose not to go into terrorism...
 

busmaster11

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Mar 4, 2000
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<<

<< This may be a little cynical, but people here are selfish, and to be attached to self means you do not have a lot of compassion and understanding. >>



I don't know...I, for one, have done a lot of work to understand it.

I know infinitely more about the Israel-Palestine conflict than I did before Sept. 11, have read the Koran, began reading area news sources such as Al Ahram and Haaretz as well as getting what I can from the BBC, and started learning Arab

I'm sure I'm not the only one in America either...
>>



Then enlighten us.

I too have done a lot of reasearch, but am not ready to post my views, which are a little fragmented now... This thread was designed to make all of us think the big picture. Not assuming of course, that we haven't....
 

JellyBaby

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Apr 21, 2000
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<< So why is it that I don't see too much reporting and interpretations as to WHY? >>

Lazy journalism.

As to why the US is targeted may I remind you it's really all of western civilization that's hated. Our supposed lack of true faith, our economic power, our global influence, our near complete freedom...all add up to "having" while the arab world "has not". Democratic governments and free markets move countries into the future very quickly...the middle eastern countries haven't kept pace.

Also I find it hard to believe that most over there truly hate us, even with state controlled media. Just the extremists.
 

jacklutz

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Aug 13, 2001
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The media can't explain 'why' without tempering the enthusiasm against their 'evil' organization. This US has been extremely irresponsible in failing to respond to the threat Osama posed earlier. Not the US government, but the US as a whole; the American public isn't concerned about outside events until it affects them in a major way, it would seem. Beirut? Mogadishu? Where's that?

I think bin Laden's being angered over the deployment of US forces in Saudi Arabia is pretty ridiculous, but the US has still done more than enough to make a lot of people sympathetic to what he's done or consider doing the same.

My ramblings...
 

UltraQuiet

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Sep 22, 2001
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<< I think bin Laden's being angered over the deployment of US forces in Saudi Arabia is pretty ridiculous, but the US has still done more than enough to make a lot of people sympathetic to what he's done or consider doing the same. >>



Yeah? Like what?
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
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<< Then enlighten us.
I too have done a lot of reasearch, but am not ready to post my views, which are a little fragmented now... This thread was designed to make all of us think the big picture. Not assuming of course, that we haven't....
>>



I wish I had something to tell you or some great big solution but there is none. Why do common people in the Middle East who have had very little real contact with the US hate Americans?

Here's what I think:
 

busmaster11

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Mar 4, 2000
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<< As to why the US is targeted may I remind you it's really all of western civilization that's hated. Our supposed lack of true faith, our economic power, our global influence, our near complete freedom...all add up to "having" while the arab world "has not". Democratic governments and free markets move countries into the future very quickly...the middle eastern countries haven't kept pace.

Also I find it hard to believe that most over there truly hate us, even with state controlled media. Just the extremists.
>>



Lack of true faith and freedom? - true. But would that make them hate us enough to want to kill us? I'd think that alone would just make them want to ignore us...

Economic power? I doubt that's something regimes such as the Taliban would care for...

Global influence? I think so... How does it influence them? Is it something that directly influences or harms them? Like perhaps our alliance with Israel...

 

JellyBaby

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Apr 21, 2000
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busmaster11, all a state-controlled media need do is generate a feeling of ill-will about the west and keep conditioning their "citizens" over time to believe it. The specifics don't really matter. Remember the level of education most of the arab populous receives.

Most of them don't hate us enough to commit murder but apparently enough do to commit acts like we saw on Sept. 11.
 

FLandivar

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Nov 13, 2001
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<<Lack of true faith and freedom? - true.
But would that make them hate us enough to want to kill us? I'd think that alone would just make them want to ignore us...
>>

I think Bin Laden's main reason to hate the US so much is because of the US troops in Saudi Arabia, they are considered to be impure people in places sacred for them. For what I have read Bin Laden offered his services to the king of Saudi Arabia when Irak was about to invade Saudi Arabia during the Gulf war, the king declined his offer and asked the US for help, and after the war the US kept their troops over there, that got him pissed off.
 

busmaster11

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Mar 4, 2000
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<< The media can't explain 'why' without tempering the enthusiasm against their 'evil' organization. This US has been extremely irresponsible in failing to respond to the threat Osama posed earlier. Not the US government, but the US as a whole; the American public isn't concerned about outside events until it affects them in a major way, it would seem. Beirut? Mogadishu? Where's that? >>



I think thats very true... Good thinking. I suppose that tempering the support for the war can't be a good thing for political popularity. Perhaps a lot of Americans don't want to hear such things as well. Why would we want to hear the story of a bunch of people who just blew up our monuments anyway?

The media is VERY powerful. Probably more powerful and influential then they themselves want to admit, because admitting it would be acknoledging that they're not just REPORTING the story... I just wonder if this tradition of biased reporting is encouraging Americans to forget about the underlying cause, and about what influence we have globally...
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
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<< Also I find it hard to believe that most over there truly hate us, even with state controlled media. Just the extremists
What about the dancing in the streets we all saw on TV? That was a lot of people to just be extremists.
>>



Yep, really happened. It's talked about in here from an Arab newspaper's Jerusalem correspondent. Al-Ahram in Cairo.
 

busmaster11

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Mar 4, 2000
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<< These people are apparently desparate

There's no bigger BS than this...you have these guys confused with people starving in refugee camps and the like. These guys had some college education, came from middle class families and whatnot. Bin Laden especially. He could be livin' la vida loca with all his cash had he chose not to go into terrorism...
>>



No... I'm not saying that these people are financially desparate or poor. I meant, that they are desparate to get their message across to America and or the west. Desparate to the point of wanting to kill us.
 

JellyBaby

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Apr 21, 2000
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<< What about the dancing in the streets we all saw on TV? >>

I hope there's a difference between dancing in the streets at the news of your "enemy" being attacked and actually murdering your fellow man.
 

zephyrprime

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Feb 18, 2001
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I think that people in the middle east who hate america are using america as a scapegoat for everything that they don't like about their nation. I believe there is precedent that supports my theory in the case of Jews in Germany during the WW2 era.

Look at how the Germans treated the Jewish during WWII. Can I overstate how much the Germans despised the Jews? We all know what happened then. And why did the Germans hate the Jews? Did they have any good reasons? No. But nonetheless, they hated them. The nation had been crushed by WW1 and the bad economic policies in the post war period. The anger of a dissatisfied populace was somehow directed at the Jews even though it was the Allies that had defeated the Germans in WW1 and not the Jews.

I believe that a similiar sort of scapegoating is occuring now and the US is the goat. Many people are searching for a logical reason for why much of the middle east hates the US. I don't believe there is a reason to be found any more than there was in the case of Jews in WW2 Germany. I do believe that the US has commited some injustices to some middle eastern nations in the past but most of this was done with the support of their governments. I recently heard on the radio that people in Iran don't hate the US nearly as much as other Middle Eastern nations because the Iranian government is not supported by the US and is at least slightly democratic.
 

Midnight Rambler

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Oct 9, 1999
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IMHO, it boils down to simple and blind intolerance on the part of the radicals.

No matter who you are, what religion you may or may not practice, if it is not Islam, then you are an Infidel and should die.

And to suggest that a non-Muslim merely being on a piece of ground that is supposedly Holy is blasphemous is just another example of their intolerance.

It's ludicrous, prejudiced, and a slew of other unflattering descriptives, with no clear end/solution in sight ... :(
 

novon

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Oct 9, 1999
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It seems that they are blinded by their "religion" as much as we are by ours.
 

busmaster11

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Mar 4, 2000
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<< I think that people in the middle east who hate america are using america as a scapegoat for everything that they don't like about their nation. I believe there is precedent that supports my theory in the case of Jews in Germany during the WW2 era. >>



What does Al Qaeda hate about their own countries, and what does it mean when you say America is a scapegoat for that hatred? Do you think these people commited suicide in killing thousands of Americans for a scapegoat?
 

Palek

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Jun 20, 2001
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I think it should be mentioned that a lot of the hatred directed against the US has its roots in the US supporting and protecting Israel. A lot of you probably know that Jerusalem is holy land for the Jews, but what not that many people know is that Jerusalem also happens to be a holy site for Muslims.

Now, I do not want to get into a discussion over who was there first or who has the right to be there, but the fact is that it is under Israeli rule right now, which most Muslims find unacceptable, and the more extreme will never rest until they reclaim it. I think Bin Laden said something like he would not stop until the holy land of the Muslims was cleansed of all unbelievers (correct me if I am wrong). That holy land includes Jerusalem as well, I presume. Also, this is why he is all against US presence in Saudi Arabia. So, obviously he and/or the likes of him will not give up the "fight" (more like massacre of innocent people) as long as Jerusalem is not "free". But can anyone honestly imagine Israel ever giving up Israel? Not me.

And I can imagine that the US will not give up on Israel either, at least not in the forseeable future. Therefore all the people who hate Israel will continue hating the US as well, marking the country and its citizens as their prime targets.

I think we should expect a lot more terrorist attacks... :(
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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<< Now, I do not want to get into a discussion over who was there first >>

Considering Mohammed was born roughly six centuries AD, it's safe to say that the Jews were there first. Not that it has any bearing on current issues.
 

Palek

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Well, yes, but originally - if we can consider the Bible a reliable source of history (which I think we can) - the nation of Israel does not come from the region where the COUNTRY of Israel is located today. They actually pretty much invaded this region, conquering or chasing away other ethnic groups that lived in the land of Canaan. They did have a very good reason though, God gave them this land.

And this is actually connected to the point I made before. Since Israelites believe that their land was appointed to them by God, they will not give it up for anything. On the other hand, all Palestinian (and many other Muslim) terrorist groups are also fighting to reclaim their holy land. So basically the Middle-East conflict will never be resolved as long as there are both Jews and Muslims living in the area.
 

busmaster11

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Mar 4, 2000
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<< And this is actually connected to the point I made before. Since Israelites believe that their land was appointed to them by God, they will not give it up for anything. On the other hand, all Palestinian (and many other Muslim) terrorist groups are also fighting to reclaim their holy land. So basically the Middle-East conflict will never be resolved as long as there are both Jews and Muslims living in the area. >>



That's part of what I don't understand... why is Jerusalem holy to Muslems? I thought only Mecca was?

And I remember vaguely reading in elementary school... Muslims believe that people "of the book" may go to heaven, and that includes Christians. Does anyone remember anything like that?