Let's clear up this evolution thing....

visgf

Senior member
Dec 19, 1999
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Many people seem to have some rather large misinterpretations about what evolution really is.

Fallacy #1: Man evolved from apes.
This is completely inaccurate. Man did not come from apes at all. Man came from a more primitive type of man, who in turn came from another primitive type. Apes also came from one of these prototypes, thus creating two completely different organisms. They mutated to become the form they are now, while we mutated to become the living, reasoning creatures we are.


Fallacy #2: Creatures adapt to their environments and form new species.
I hate to say it, but concerning long term species changes, adaptation is not the reason. It is due to mutation, or a change in the DNA. This is how it works. One member of a particular species had his DNA form just a little bit different through a mutation during development (before any exposure to the environment). The mutation is most often attributed to malfunctions in mitosis or meiosis. Many mutations never surface either because the offspring cannot survive the mutation or the offspring never physically shows the mutation. In a few, they develop a trait that sets them off slightly from the rest of the group. Environmental changes may occur (like a huge meteor) making the living environment unlivable for some of the species. The member with the mutation, however, may have such a mutation that allows him to survive the change. His ability to survive makes him an attractive mate to any viable partner. He is more likely to have offspring survive and pass on his special mutation, who will in turn have more survivor offspring. Over long amounts of time, many mutations will occur (usually very subtle and undistinguishable), sometimes enough so that a different creature has been created. It is only made a different species when it is unable to mate with the others that did not acquire the mutations.

Case in point: A group of people are forced to work and live in the hotter areas of Africa. They are not native to the area and have lighter skin. Their skin grows dark from the exposure, but when their children are born the offspring still have light skin until they too are exposed to the sun. One person in the group has just a little bit darker complexion than the others and is able to tolerate the sun more than the others. The others in the group, being unaccostomed to the sun, become sick due to sun strokes or even skin cancers. They are not a very attractive mate possibility due to their illness, but the person with the slightly darker skin who tolerates the sun better has not gotten sick. More people will be attracted to him than the sick guys. He has many children, all of which have slightly darker skin also. They grow old enough to reproduce and become the more attractive mates because of their livelihood. As time goes on, everyone in the group has darker skin since the pale guys have died from illness. The skin gets darker and darker over time, resulting in a totally different skin color.

Creatures cannot pass on adaptations. Adaptations are temporary changes in a creature that has not changed DNA (like getting a tan or larger muscles from weight lifting). A mutation, or change in the DNA, must occur and that mutation must help the organism to have a better chance of survival over others. If the creature is more able to survive, it will be able to create more offspring with that mutation for survival.

I'm choosing to stay out of the side picking, but if you are going to take one, I thought your arguement would be better if it was fully accurate.
 

saxman

Banned
Oct 12, 1999
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<< I'm choosing to stay out of the side picking, but if you are going to take one, I thought your arguement would be better if it was fully accurate. >>



in the end, both sides are part of the same thing.
 

Imaginer

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
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creationism and evolution...

In a sense, what you said by mutation is somewhat evolution. And as for the second part, it is an &quot;evolution&quot; based on the race as a whole. Notice how the race adapts to the enviorment indirectly through survival of the fittest.

Just my view of things.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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alienbabeltech.com
Well, thank-you for explaining your beliefs, visgf.

I knew this, but I still respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

If this thread is still going tomorrow, I can elaborate.

Good night all.
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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<< Let's clear up this evolution thing.... >>



Really Let's not Ok? It is a pointless argument.
 

hpkeeper

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
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Where is the contradiction to your opinion though visgf? I mean, the argument isn't between adaptation and evolution, it's between evolution and people being placed on earth by the hand of god. So where is Fallacy #3?

BTW: I'm for Evolution.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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She argued nothing. She is simply trying to clear up a very false misconception that people have about evolution.

 

OS

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
15,581
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what ever you say baby :)


Actually, apoppin can vouch for me, I'm a diehard evolution supporter.
 

eakers

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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what causes these DNA mutations? some call it adaptation aka survival of the fittest.

*kat. <-- only knows what she learned in bio-1030 last semester.
 

damocles

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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hastily ripped from some site

Mutations are basically accidents in reproduction. The only place where such mutations can occur is in the production of the haploid cells (cells with a single set of chromosomes) in the sperm and egg, or in the joining of the two in conception. A reproduction accident anywhere else in the body will affect only the cell that suffers the accident. Such accidents will not be added into the gene pool and thus are not mutations. In such an accident, the sick cell is quickly replaced by a well one and the incident is over. Yet when such an accident occurs in the sperm or egg, it will appear in every cell in the offspring. This mutation then has a 50% chance of occurring in each grandchild. If the recipient of the mutation has several children, the odds are that the mutation will join the species gene pool by way of one or more of his children.
 

Thorn

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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A bit OT here, but I want to throw this out here...

What I find remarkable is how people automatically believe that this (what you see and experience around you) is reality. Haven't you ever questioned it? I've listened to countless debates on creation vs. evolution but I've only once encountered a different perspective. Perhaps the most valuable part of Genesis is, &quot;and God placed Adam into a deep sleep&quot; (it never says that God awakened him afterwards). Interestingly, if that were the case, we've never awakened from &quot;the Dream&quot;. I mean, sure, that and 85 cents will buy you a cup of coffee. But it is an interesting perspective. Haven't you ever had a dream that was so real that you couldn't tell you were still asleep? Or experienced moments of clarity that were so striking and pristine that all the rest of time that you're &quot;awake&quot; seems like a haze? Just some food for thought...



&quot;You think that's air your breathing? Hmmm.&quot; - Morpheus, The Matrix
 

Descartes

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
13,968
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Thorn: Perhaps... but, a dream is only a dream if you awake to acknowledge it.

Reality in itself is relative. Each of us is allowed an individual perception of reality, but there will always be the primordial reality that may agree with our perception, but most likely, we're ignorant to it.


 

MrCraphead

Platinum Member
Sep 20, 2000
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You raise an interesting question Thorn.....of course I don't share your view, but it's nonetheless interesting. :)
 

Napalm381

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Want to really blow your mind? Pick up a good book on quantum physics. Physical reality is largely based on a lot of probability functions.
 

damocles

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Something I would like to point out is that evolution isn?t always a beneficial thing and that technology can effect selection quite significantly. For example; there are many people out there with poor eyesight. At one point poor eyesight would have been a characteristic that would have been negatively impacted upon by selection. However through our technological innovations we have been able over to overcome this problem in most countries, through the use of contact lenses, glasses etc. The result of this is that poor eyesight, in many cases, is no longer figured as strongly into selection. So, for example, short sightedness is less likely to be weeded out of the gene pool. In the long term humans will begin to carry more defects, which it must counteract with science.
 

nippyjun

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Survival of the fittest accounts for acceptance of genetic variability. The phonotypic expression of genes allows some individuals to survive at a greater rate then others. These survivors are more likely to pass on their genes and propagate their genetic makup. Multiply this millions of times and new species evolve.
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
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Napalm...

I read The Dancing Wu Li Masters (a book about quantum physics) and my poor little brain has been shattered ever since! :D :D :D

Frankly, I don't buy any theory 100%... theories are just that.... theories!

I find it difficult for me to be 100% sure of anything... it all comes down to faith and what you choose to believe.

Just my .02
 

Thorn

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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<< Thorn: Perhaps... but, a dream is only a dream if you awake to acknowledge it. >>


That's the entire point. I happen to feel that there are infinite layers of reality and we as &quot;beings human&quot; are, and will only be, able to perceive a comparitively microscopic portion of it. This makes our experinces in it no less valid, but can perhaps give us future insights into experiences that now may seem to be quite impossible.


<< Want to really blow your mind? Pick up a good book on quantum physics. Physical reality is largely based on a lot of probability functions. >>


I'll go even one step further. Check out some of the new formulas/discussions on Super String theory and then read a good English translation of the Zohar (a 12th century Kabbalistic manuscript). The parallels between the two are shocking to say the least... at certain levels we are just now starting to scientifically understand (hyper-dimensional probability, matter construction, etc) what some mystics already knew millenia ago. It's really pretty funny; the more we learn, the more we find out that there are no &quot;new ideas&quot;, just new ways of approaching them.
 

damocles

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Isla

Well said. Theories are indeed, just theories. But we, of course, need theories upon which we can attempt to build scientific frameworks. Healthy science is to build a theory and invite challenge, and if reasonable evidence is presented to change it. Unfortunately there are many people that will subvert, or choose to ignore evidence to maintain their theories, but they are doing science and themselves no favours.

 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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I´m just going to say this and then leave, I´v had my share of these discussions.

Evolution is from science while Creationism is from religion, I dont belive in evolution like religious people belive in cration. Evolution has nothing to do with Faith or religion, its all about science. I´v just seen studys done on how species evolve, I´v seen how animals die if their enviroment changes while other seem to thrive. I´v read about how bacteria evolves, I´v read that new types of bacterias evolve in hospitals where the current type is under constant attack from drugs. I´v read about this from all parts of the world. I´v come to my own conclusion after reading all this I´v come to my own conclusion, and it just so happens to be just about the same as evolutionists think.

ok ... I´m gone

untill the next thread, belive what you think, not what others think