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Let Us Clarify Something: Thier is no such thing as "your job"

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LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Bleep
Exactly Lunar. These morons fail to realize without the US governemnt (which is the poeple) printing money though the fed and loaning it to commerical banks who then loan it to corps and other businesses thier would be no business. So whos giving who the job
It dont quite work that way. I put money in the bank or buy certificates and they pay me 2-3% on my money and loan it to you for 8-10% to buy yourself a new car, no goverment money there.
Or the fed makes money available to pay the debt to a large bank that loaned the gov money and then the bank loans it out to someone else. Prove that the fed prints more money just to loan it out. Business makes money by selling stock, that is how most large business get money.
It is not necessary to borrow money to start a business just a good plan a good product and good marketing. Start small and end up large. This is experience speaking.

Bleep
The volume of currency in circulation is not a random event. The economy cannot grow if the supply of currency is curtailed.
Little kids start our small too and in this country end up big and too big sometimes..
The fed lends money (currency, interesting word that) to the member banks which enables them to lend it out. Your CD just allows for the multiplier affect.. (reserve requirements)
All currency is backed by the government.. (you and me Zebo and moonbeam too .. not JGalt, thought:)) it belongs to us as does the debt..
Stock issue is the most expensive means of raising capital and it shares the opportunity when you are large.... it is the best way, if successful, to realize wealth by the owners selling it to new owners..
OPM.. other peoples money.. borrowing is how most companies finance both working capital and Fixed assets. If you use your own money that is fine too.. but, much more risky to you..
There is one fundamental factor about currency.. it is the means of barter.. instead of carrying oranges from the store to acquire grapes from another store..
Just my opinion..

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,408
2
81
Lunar "borrowing" raising, giving up your company from stock holders is for those without a track record. Cargill and Bechtel (both nonlisted privates) don't need them. They go straight to a commerical bank at 4.5%:)

Don't you have an MS in accounting? No opinion needed:p
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Zebo
Lunar "borrowing" raising, giving up your company from stock holders is for those without a track record. Cargill and Bechtel (both nonlisted privates) don't need them. They go straight to a commerical bank at 4.5%:)

Don't you have an MS in accounting? No opinion needed:p

In all cases (almost) it is preferred to use OPM than any kind of equity (unless you dabble in T stock where the gain is not taxable) but, that is pennies.. Because the interest expense reduces tax where as dividends don't. Plus other factors like dillution and stuff.. but, Debt/Equity ratios are important to the lender.

BS Accounting, MBA Finance, DBA International Finance/Economics.. But one wouldn't know it to talk to me cuz I'm basically dense and it was so long ago that I've forgot we were off the silver standard :) Plus I'm voting for William Jennings Bryan... anyhow.. geez what a waste ot time and money... well..I only paid for the last one.. My Dad got me in by donating large amounts of money so I got a free ride and then The GI bill.. thank you America..:D and CAD!!



 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,408
2
81
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Zebo
Lunar "borrowing" raising, giving up your company from stock holders is for those without a track record. Cargill and Bechtel (both nonlisted privates) don't need them. They go straight to a commerical bank at 4.5%:)

Don't you have an MS in accounting? No opinion needed:p

In all cases (almost) it is preferred to use OPM than any kind of equity (unless you dabble in T stock where the gain is not taxable) but, that is pennies.. Because the interest expense reduces tax where as dividends don't. Plus other factors like dillution and stuff.. but, Debt/Equity ratios are important to the lender.

BS Accounting, MBA Finance, DBA International Finance/Economics.. But one wouldn't know it to talk to me cuz I'm basically dense and it was so long ago that I've forgot we were off the silver standard :) Plus I'm voting for William Jennings Bryan... anyhow.. geez what a waste ot time and money... well..I only paid for the last one.. My Dad got me in by donating large amounts of money so I got a free ride and then The GI bill.. thank you America..:D and CAD!!
Well we are just tryng to make the transition from mortgage brokers which charge and insane 13% to a regoinal bank. Will hope to build 8 homes next year if all goes well. Yes I've known since I was about 13 OPM:) Borrowed $1000 from Dad for first lawn mowers and still havent paid it back:Q Made a fortune in JrHS had 17K upon graduation and foolsih me went to college... Parents demanded it.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
HeHehehehehe.. I suppose you could look at it that way.. I look at it a bit different.. "there is no such thing as your company without me"

We are in the barter business. I sell time. It is my job to sell my time... you job mister company owner is to acquire time, among other things. I may not choose to sell you my time but, if you do your job right and I do my job right we'll both exchange our commodities and be happy campers..

Oh... you say if it was not for the Companies I'd have no place to sell my time??? Really... If we choose not to sell you our time... you'll not long be a company.. you'll be a nothing..
Sorry, don't agree. There will *always* be someone willing to replace you should you decide not to sell your time. Sure, back in the day unions used violence to stem the flow of *replacement* workers......Thankfully, those days are now over.

No one has a "right" to a job, just as no company has a "right" to exist.......just look at all the failed "dot.coms" and their now unemployed 20 something "web developers" who were paid to surf the net all day.........
 

rjain

Golden Member
May 1, 2003
1,475
0
0
Originally posted by: shuan24

So basically what you're saying is only people who can afford school should go to school? there is always aid, and contrary to what you beleive, NOT ALL students at Harvard or MIT are products of rich parents. Students at top colleges should BE top students, not products of rich parents.
No... I'm saying that it should NOT be that way, as opposed to the situation you are supporting: one where tuitions go through the roof and only the rich will even bother applying to schools.
 

rjain

Golden Member
May 1, 2003
1,475
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
mortgage brokers which charge and insane 13%
:Q Looks like someone missed the boat. (Good thing you can still swim to it ;)
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Looks like someone missed the boat. (Good thing you can still swim to it
I think that Zebo is referring to commercial construction lending, not conventional residential mortgage rates. Banks have an advantage in this area as the profit earned in other ventures allow banks to charge a more attractive rate than a dedicated mortgage wholesaler/retailer can. A 13% rate implies a very unprofitable product, usually resulting from excessive default rates and fraud.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,408
2
81
Originally posted by: Corn
Looks like someone missed the boat. (Good thing you can still swim to it
I think that Zebo is referring to commercial construction lending, not conventional residential mortgage rates. Banks have an advantage in this area as the profit earned in other ventures allow banks to charge a more attractive rate than a dedicated mortgage wholesaler/retailer can. A 13% rate implies a very unprofitable product, usually resulting from excessive default rates and fraud.
That's right. No bank will loan to us currently with only 4 speculative properties under our belt and only in business for two short years. In fact as Corn says it's extremly difficullt to get banks to loan for speculative ventures like land and real estate and construction because of the high default rate and speculative nature. Getting a SFH mortage is easy as pie because usually it's guarnteed either by the governemnt though VA/freddiemac etc,PMI, or 20% conventional plus the equity of the house already standing.

I suppose i could apply for a minority 7a loan with the wife but what a PIA it is dealing with the SBA, millions of pages to fill out...plus my Dad hates Governemnt..When you need money quick in timly distributions without hassle a mortgage broker is the way to go IMO. Or use your own money. Or build a reputation and use a regular bank (extremly difficult...Only small portion is based on credit in this case)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,835
3,634
126
I don't own my job and because of that I well destroy the world. I will have lots of kids I cant feed and educate but can beat and fill with hate. These I will turn loose in the inner cities to do just like me. Together we will sell drugs and steal and destroy the value of property. Eventually we will surround your gated communities and infect your country ways. We will rap and make amphetamines to get your country kids. We don't own our jobs, but we will own you. We already do. Our growing numbers already haunt your sleep. We are the reflection of how you feel. We are the truth about yourself. We are the face of your competitive hate. You work for us in every way you fear.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Zebo,
Well we are just tryng to make the transition from mortgage brokers which charge and insane 13% to a regoinal bank. Will hope to build 8 homes next year if all goes well. Yes I've known since I was about 13 OPM Borrowed $1000 from Dad for first lawn mowers and still havent paid it back Made a fortune in JrHS had 17K upon graduation and foolsih me went to college... Parents demanded it.
*************

I'm in the Construction Industry too.. We used to have Three Companies: Engineering (mech/elec), Construction, and Another that did just about anything and everything.. sorta a CFO's dream Company:D But, sold off the latter two.. and now just play... mostly concrete restoration and the like and that is "My Job"... I don't get to do high level finance anymore but, get to be Chief Bottle Washer and Controller.. :)
I went to college because I got a free ride and wanted to escape from NYC..:) Finally got away by joining the Navy when I became 17.. and never looked back.. god I hate that place.
You are a go getter. We didn't have lawns in NY, but, I did caddy from 13 till exodus while taking 24 - 26 units during the week... what a geek! :)

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Corn
HeHehehehehe.. I suppose you could look at it that way.. I look at it a bit different.. "there is no such thing as your company without me"

We are in the barter business. I sell time. It is my job to sell my time... you job mister company owner is to acquire time, among other things. I may not choose to sell you my time but, if you do your job right and I do my job right we'll both exchange our commodities and be happy campers..

Oh... you say if it was not for the Companies I'd have no place to sell my time??? Really... If we choose not to sell you our time... you'll not long be a company.. you'll be a nothing..
Sorry, don't agree. There will *always* be someone willing to replace you should you decide not to sell your time. Sure, back in the day unions used violence to stem the flow of *replacement* workers......Thankfully, those days are now over.

No one has a "right" to a job, just as no company has a "right" to exist.......just look at all the failed "dot.coms" and their now unemployed 20 something "web developers" who were paid to surf the net all day.........
If you believe the worker of today is shackled to the whim of the corporate gods that is fine... what YOU believe is true... What I believe is that I am a wealth builder or used to be and if Mr. Company wants my abilities I'll consider it. You see what I believe is true too. I make the company exist by reasoned business acumen. The production guy has his contribution as well. I believe we are co equal partners in this economy. The employee and the employer... we come to gether and we both benefit. We have a right to a job. Perhaps not a specific job but, a job. We are the government and we've decided that we have that right... and we are greater in numbers than the employer who is also a member of our collective. So when we say we have a right we have the power to effect this..

 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
We are the face of your competitive hate.
That's right folks, competition = hate. I'm sure that Moonie is working on a way to breed out human nature, but until that time comes, lobotomies for everyone!

I know Moonie, it's an unfair world we live in:

Some people are born poor, some are born rich. Take the rich kid's money. Some people are born ugly, some are born pretty. Scar the pretty kid's face. Some people are born stupid, some are born geniuses. Beat the smart kid stupid.

Hey, it might sound rough for the pretty, rich, and smart kids.......but we can't have anyone feeling superior than anyone else, that's your job. You know what's best for us Moonie, you are light years ahead of us barbarians.

You are so enlightened, I'm in awe.



 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Corn
Looks like someone missed the boat. (Good thing you can still swim to it
I think that Zebo is referring to commercial construction lending, not conventional residential mortgage rates. Banks have an advantage in this area as the profit earned in other ventures allow banks to charge a more attractive rate than a dedicated mortgage wholesaler/retailer can. A 13% rate implies a very unprofitable product, usually resulting from excessive default rates and fraud.
That's right. No bank will loan to us currently with only 4 speculative properties under our belt and only in business for two short years. In fact as Corn says it's extremly difficullt to get banks to loan for speculative ventures like land and real estate and construction because of the high default rate and speculative nature. Getting a SFH mortage is easy as pie because usually it's guarnteed either by the governemnt though VA/freddiemac etc,PMI, or 20% conventional plus the equity of the house already standing.

I suppose i could apply for a minority 7a loan with the wife but what a PIA it is dealing with the SBA, millions of pages to fill out...plus my Dad hates Governemnt..When you need money quick in timly distributions without hassle a mortgage broker is the way to go IMO. Or use your own money. Or build a reputation and use a regular bank (extremly difficult...Only small portion is based on credit in this case)

Bridging loans are more risky because of the underlying asset not being supportive of the loan. Even at 75 % complete it is still risky.. The rate of Construction co. failure is pretty high comparitivly.. I'd not invest in a loan of this type.. But, have found that by using another property as the collateral or negotiating with the subs for better terms..etc.. those costs can be somewhat mitagated..
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,408
2
81
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Zebo,
Well we are just tryng to make the transition from mortgage brokers which charge and insane 13% to a regoinal bank. Will hope to build 8 homes next year if all goes well. Yes I've known since I was about 13 OPM Borrowed $1000 from Dad for first lawn mowers and still havent paid it back Made a fortune in JrHS had 17K upon graduation and foolsih me went to college... Parents demanded it.
*************

I'm in the Construction Industry too.. We used to have Three Companies: Engineering (mech/elec), Construction, and Another that did just about anything and everything.. sorta a CFO's dream Company:D But, sold off the latter two.. and now just play... mostly concrete restoration and the like and that is "My Job"... I don't get to do high level finance anymore but, get to be Chief Bottle Washer and Controller.. :)
I went to college because I got a free ride and wanted to escape from NYC..:) Finally got away by joining the Navy when I became 17.. and never looked back.. god I hate that place.
You are a go getter. We didn't have lawns in NY, but, I did caddy from 13 till exodus while taking 24 - 26 units during the week... what a geek! :)
Not really a go getter Lunar this is mainly my dads and little bros deal.. I have to work full time still. I'm along for the ride, go to home shows helping to design get ideas, interview subs with dad, run all over with my head cut off submitting paperwork, but no real vested intrest other than an education for now. Do you have an engineering licence (A)? Ours is a B general..We should chat for real. I was a real go-getter until USN and college ruined me...got lazy...got governemnt job...got fat. :p I wish I was liquid and 20 again..don't you sometimes?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't own my job and because of that I well destroy the world. I will have lots of kids I cant feed and educate but can beat and fill with hate. These I will turn loose in the inner cities to do just like me. Together we will sell drugs and steal and destroy the value of property. Eventually we will surround your gated communities and infect your country ways. We will rap and make amphetamines to get your country kids. We don't own our jobs, but we will own you. We already do. Our growing numbers already haunt your sleep. We are the reflection of how you feel. We are the truth about yourself. We are the face of your competitive hate. You work for us in every way you fear.

But you do have a right to a job.. we have said so and we are the majority.. so round up the kiddies, trash the paint cans, play Mozart, give the drugs to the rappers and send the kiddies to college so they can reason their way through the tangled mess and effectively change the world to their liking.. without playing Brittany Spears music... please.. :)
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Zebo,
Not really a go getter Lunar this is mainly my dads and little bros deal.. I have to work full time still. I'm along for the ride, go to home shows helping to design get ideas, interview subs with dad, run all over with my head cut off submitting paperwork, but no real vested intrest other than an education for now. Do you have an engineering licence (A)? Ours is a B general..We should chat for real. I was a real go-getter until USN and college ruined me...got lazy...got governemnt job...got fat. I wish I was liquid and 20 again..don't you sometimes?
*************

We have the A, B, a few C's and the remodel thingi..The owner (our god) has BSME.
I carried mail for a time after the Navy.. and did the grad school and post grad thing during and after work.. :D I love this country... :D
I was the same size and weight from 19 until about 1990 but, wouldn't trade a day, every one I enjoyed.. be afraid it would turn out different.. :)
I didn't get fat... went from 215 to 170 last year in 4 months.. (Lupus) then back to 180 now.. but, the frame changed (compression or something) went, in a two year span, from 190.5 cm to 186.7 just yesterday.. (VA measured me... they do that a lot
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,492
0
0
Originally posted by: Corn
We are the face of your competitive hate.
That's right folks, competition = hate. I'm sure that Moonie is working on a way to breed out human nature, but until that time comes, lobotomies for everyone!

I know Moonie, it's an unfair world we live in:

Some people are born poor, some are born rich. Take the rich kid's money. Some people are born ugly, some are born pretty. Scar the pretty kid's face. Some people are born stupid, some are born geniuses. Beat the smart kid stupid.

Hey, it might sound rough for the pretty, rich, and smart kids.......but we can't have anyone feeling superior than anyone else, that's your job. You know what's best for us Moonie, you are light years ahead of us barbarians.

You are so enlightened, I'm in awe.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Corn,
I know Moonie, it's an unfair world we live in:

Some people are born poor, some are born rich. Take the rich kid's money. Some people are born ugly, some are born pretty. Scar the pretty kid's face. Some people are born stupid, some are born geniuses. Beat the smart kid stupid.

Hey, it might sound rough for the pretty, rich, and smart kids.......but we can't have anyone feeling superior than anyone else, that's your job. You know what's best for us Moonie, you are light years ahead of us barbarians.

You are so enlightened, I'm in awe.[/quote]

You make my day.. I look forward to your responses to Moonster.. I find them really funny.. and sometimes responsive..:)
It is good to be enlightened but, I'd move from Awe. I heard tell in the land of Awe few if any original ideas are allowed to proceed to realization... something to do with the absence of delight and the quest for the match..
:)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,835
3,634
126
Originally posted by: Corn
We are the face of your competitive hate.
That's right folks, competition = hate. I'm sure that Moonie is working on a way to breed out human nature, but until that time comes, lobotomies for everyone!

I know Moonie, it's an unfair world we live in:

Some people are born poor, some are born rich. Take the rich kid's money. Some people are born ugly, some are born pretty. Scar the pretty kid's face. Some people are born stupid, some are born geniuses. Beat the smart kid stupid.

Hey, it might sound rough for the pretty, rich, and smart kids.......but we can't have anyone feeling superior than anyone else, that's your job. You know what's best for us Moonie, you are light years ahead of us barbarians.

You are so enlightened, I'm in awe.
(Some people are born poor, some are born rich. Take the rich kid's money. Some people are born ugly, some are born pretty. Scar the pretty kid's face. Some people are born stupid, some are born geniuses. Beat the smart kid stupid.)?

This is the story you tell yourself and how you justify the preposterous way you feel. But it is only an illusion. Truth is always a third way. You haven't learned to examine your assumptions. Because of that you can only go in circles. Know that the good you defend is not lost when false ideals give way. Real good is even better than you think. Hatred of barbarians is barbaric and what barbarians do. Them enlightened folk love me and you. :D


 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
This is the story you tell yourself and how you justify the preposterous way you feel.
Oh yes, the illusive [edit: ooooo, freudian slip of the spelling?] "third way" of breeding out human nature and our inherent inequties. I realize it's so brilliantly simple as unlearning what we've learned, but what to do about those who refuse to give up their humanity? I guess we'll need a fourth way for that.

Oh yes, my story is preposterous Moonie, that's the point, but not more so than yours.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,835
3,634
126
Originally posted by: Corn
This is the story you tell yourself and how you justify the preposterous way you feel.
Oh yes, the illusive [edit: ooooo, freudian slip of the spelling?] "third way" of breeding out human nature and our inherent inequties. I realize it's so brilliantly simple as unlearning what we've learned, but what to do about those who refuse to give up their humanity? I guess we'll need a fourth way for that.

Oh yes, my story is preposterous Moonie, that's the point, but not more so than yours.
Golly, Corn, I didn't tell you my story. And if you really understood that it's sp brilliantly simple as unlearning what we've learned you wouldn't follow with the astonishingly learned assumption you know what human nature is. See when you know you don't know that's where you stay. You don't know what human nature is, OK. You can't tell what kind of wood a painted chair is made of till you strip off some paint. And if you want to see it in all its pristine beauty you got to do a complete refinishing job. Your fear about the horrible true nature of man is just a projection of how you were taught to feel. You don't like yourself so you're tremendously down on man. The right hand hates the left hand so round and round we go. You want to be the axle and not the wheel. You don't know how you feel. That's the real surprise.

Here's a song for you to hum while you ponder:

I want to live
I want to give
I want to live
I want to give
I've been a miner for a heart of gold
It's these expressions I never give
That keep me searching for a heart of gold
And I'm getting old
Keeps me searching for a heart of gold
And I'm getting old
I've been to Hollywood
I've been to Redwood
I crossed an ocean for a heart of gold
I've been in my mind, it's such a fine line
That keeps me searching for a heart of gold
That keeps me searching for a heart of gold
That keeps me searching for a heart of gold
I've been to Hollywood
I've been to Redwood
I crossed an ocean for a heart of gold
I've been in my mind, it's such a fine line
That keeps me searching for a heart of gold
That keeps me searching for a heart of gold
That keeps me searching for a heart of gold
And I'm getting old
I said I am getting old
Keeps me searching for a heart of gold
That keeps me searching for a heart of gold
That keeps me searching for a heart of gold
That keeps me searching for a heart of gold


 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Golly, Corn, I didn't tell you my story. And if you really understood that it's sp brilliantly simple as unlearning what we've learned you wouldn't follow with the astonishingly learned assumption you know what human nature is. See when you know you don't know that's where you stay. You don't know what human nature is, OK. You can't tell what kind of wood a painted chair is made of till you strip off some paint. And if you want to see it in all its pristine beauty you got to do a complete refinishing job. Your fear about the horrible true nature of man is just a projection of how you were taught to feel. You don't like yourself so you're tremendously down on man. The right hand hates the left hand so round and round we go. You want to be the axle and not the wheel. You don't know how you feel. That's the real surprise.
Golly Moonie, you say the same thing over and over and over again. I read it right the first time, oh, maybe 3 years ago......but hey, I realize we all have our talents, and golly, you're pretty good at repeating yourself.

You know, you might be on to something there.......hypnotists use the same technique to get people to quit smoking.

But you're right Moonie, you know me better than I know myself, you must, because after all, you are the great Moonie! You contribute so much to our lives, it is any wonder how we'll survive without you here to guide us. We must endeavor to immotialize your gifts for the benefit of all mankind for all ages to come!!!

Mark my words Moonie, when you elect yourself king, I'll puff my chest with pride knowing that I had a hand in your ascension.

When I'm happy, I must be sad. When I'm angry, I must be content.

Everything is turning up down again!

.....oh look, I just copied you and posted a lyric from a song. I feel.....ummm......holy.

Damn, I really wish Wiretrain would come out with some new material..........
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,835
3,634
126
But you're right Moonie, you know me better than I know myself, you must, because after all, you are the great Moonie! You contribute so much to our lives, it is any wonder how we'll survive without you here to guide us. We must endeavor to immotialize your gifts for the benefit of all mankind for all ages to come!!!
---------------------
Oh man, I think he's beginning to see. Oh my Beloved, wherever I look it appears to be Thou!
 

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