mikeymikec
Lifer
- May 19, 2011
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I'm planning on filing this under "things that people on this forum know because it was in a comic book"
I'm planning on filing this under "things that people on this forum know because it was in a comic book"
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,213
- 5,794
- 126
I'm planning on filing this under "things that people on this forum know because it was in a comic book"
Civ IV actually
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
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Ventanni
Golden Member
- Jul 25, 2011
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I'll answer this one using the Bible as my source, but the application can be applied to any religion, belief, or faith.
So what's Jesus saying here? People were shown miraculous signs and miracles, and yet as a whole, it was rejected; just as it was predicted it would be in the Old Testament. Why? Because people don't "work" that way. You can't force somebody to believe in something. They have to choose to accept it. The miracles that Jesus performed were largely done because the faith the people he did them for already had; they chose to accept it. And yet, despite all this, many that saw these miracles performed chose not to believe. They chose not to accept what Jesus was trying to offer, and they crucified him for it. And because they rejected it, it condemned them. Contrary to popular belief, God doesn't want to destroy you.
So basically, if a lightning bolt actually was cast down as a result of a prayer of a religious leader, would you believe? Some might, but many would reject it. Why? Because people don't work that way. We still have individuals, world leaders, in fact, who deny the Holocaust, yet the gates and ovens of Auschwitz are still there for all to see. It's just not how this all works. It's not how people work, and it's not how God chooses to work.
Secondly, you don't get to dictate the actions of God. Even as a devout Christian, I don't get to tell God what to do. In the book of Job, Job asks God to defend himself in a "heavenly court of law" to prove his faithfulness. While the underlying message of the book is that we don't, and won't always understand what God is doing, God's direct, verbal response to Job in the last chapters of the book is both powerful and fascinating, and will give you a glimpse as to why asking for God to provide you with physical evidence of his existence is both fruitless and highly offensive to Him. The Lord will reveal Himself to all who believe. Unfortunately people neglect the last part of that sentence. You have to genuinely believe first. That's His terms, not yours.
So let's summarize. While my viewpoint is from a Christian perspective, I think this answers your questions for all religions, faiths, or beliefs:
1. Physical proof doesn't guarantee belief. Humans don't work that way. If you're asking for physical evidence of a divine creator; one who's all powerful, all knowing, and has created the universe, asking for a simple lighting bolt to be cast from the sky seems, well, un-befitting. It's like asking a legendary pianist to push a single random key on a piano. If you want evidence, just look around you; it's already there. You just have to choose to believe it first.
2. You really think you can tell the divine creator what to do? Lawlz. Good luck with that.
So what's Jesus saying here? People were shown miraculous signs and miracles, and yet as a whole, it was rejected; just as it was predicted it would be in the Old Testament. Why? Because people don't "work" that way. You can't force somebody to believe in something. They have to choose to accept it. The miracles that Jesus performed were largely done because the faith the people he did them for already had; they chose to accept it. And yet, despite all this, many that saw these miracles performed chose not to believe. They chose not to accept what Jesus was trying to offer, and they crucified him for it. And because they rejected it, it condemned them. Contrary to popular belief, God doesn't want to destroy you.
So basically, if a lightning bolt actually was cast down as a result of a prayer of a religious leader, would you believe? Some might, but many would reject it. Why? Because people don't work that way. We still have individuals, world leaders, in fact, who deny the Holocaust, yet the gates and ovens of Auschwitz are still there for all to see. It's just not how this all works. It's not how people work, and it's not how God chooses to work.
Secondly, you don't get to dictate the actions of God. Even as a devout Christian, I don't get to tell God what to do. In the book of Job, Job asks God to defend himself in a "heavenly court of law" to prove his faithfulness. While the underlying message of the book is that we don't, and won't always understand what God is doing, God's direct, verbal response to Job in the last chapters of the book is both powerful and fascinating, and will give you a glimpse as to why asking for God to provide you with physical evidence of his existence is both fruitless and highly offensive to Him. The Lord will reveal Himself to all who believe. Unfortunately people neglect the last part of that sentence. You have to genuinely believe first. That's His terms, not yours.
So let's summarize. While my viewpoint is from a Christian perspective, I think this answers your questions for all religions, faiths, or beliefs:
1. Physical proof doesn't guarantee belief. Humans don't work that way. If you're asking for physical evidence of a divine creator; one who's all powerful, all knowing, and has created the universe, asking for a simple lighting bolt to be cast from the sky seems, well, un-befitting. It's like asking a legendary pianist to push a single random key on a piano. If you want evidence, just look around you; it's already there. You just have to choose to believe it first.
2. You really think you can tell the divine creator what to do? Lawlz. Good luck with that.
William Gaatjes
Lifer
- May 11, 2008
- 20,136
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Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
- 19
- 81
I've heard the rationalization for that as that you're simply aligning your own thoughts to God's
Sometimes God's master plan includes children dying in bombings or school shootings, or people burning to death in their houses, or dying of genetic disorders, while those around them pray for relief from suffering and grief. Like I said, "oldschool Biblical benevolence."
(If humans truly have free will and that's what causes those bad things to happen, then God's plan is either extremely flexible, or he's just winging it as he goes. If the plan is simply playing out to the letter, then we do not truly have free will and are simply going by the script.)
Ventanni
Golden Member
- Jul 25, 2011
- 1,432
- 142
- 106
Short answer; no.
Prayer is ultimately an act of faith. I don't necessarily pray because I want something. I pray because I believe in a God who has my best interest at heart. One who understands me, understands my needs, and knows how to knit me back together when I feel broken. When I pray to God and say, "Lord, my car is broken down. I don't know where I'm going to get the money to fix it, but I trust that you will see me through this," it's a submission to God that I can trust that He is going to take care of everything. After all, I pray and trust in a God who owns everything and lacks nothing. In human terms, God's physical wealth is unfathomable.
And, true to His word, he answers our prayers, but where individuals become confused is how he does so. Sometimes prayer is answered with, "Not yet," or, "My grace is sufficient." Sometimes God purposefully doesn't provide you with what you're asking for because if you're willing to be patient, he has better later on down the road. Or maybe God sees unnecessary ruin or hardship in a house you really want, so he closes that door on purpose. Have you ever intervened in the decisions your child made? Maybe you cut off a friendship your daughter had with a boy because you saw it would only lead to serious trouble, only in this case, we're the daughter (err, child). We're just not always going to know God's reasoning as to why he does things.
But hey, wanna hear an actual case where God did answer somebody's prayer? It ain't all God saying, "No," all the time. This happened at my church not a week ago. Our church isn't large enough to have a full staff. We can only pay the pastor's salary, and even that is sometimes a challenge. Even still, we have an assistant pastor who volunteers a lot of time and hours to run a prison ministry. He does a lot of good work in the Florida prisons, and he helps out individuals who have just been released from prison to get back on their feet. Lately he's been in need of a new car. His current car needs some repairs, and on top of that, it has no A/C. That's tough in Florida where it's summer 10 months out of the year. Recently a car was donated to our church. We have couple who currently teaches in the Iraqi-Kurdistan region (about 3 hours away from the front lines) who had no need to keep their car here in the states, so they gave it to the church. The assistant pastor was willing to pay for it, but instead they opted to give it to the church, and he would buy it from the church. That way, the church would get the money, right? Well, out of the blue, the counsel agrees to give it to the assistant pastor for free, and even pay for the title transfer. Not a single person was expecting that. Even I didn't see that coming. Heck, I was even questioning why he didn't just give the money to the church and avoid all the paperwork mess of transferring it from the original owner to the church and finally to the assistant pastor! But when God provides you with a new car, you don't question it.
So long answer; no. Prayer is extremely important. It is an act of obedience, an act of faith, and an act of trust. We tend to over-focus on the doom-and-gloom of the world, because that's what our news outlets focus on, but the reality is, God answers a lot, and I mean a lot of prayers, and bestows his blessings on a lot of things that you might not realize.
But no, it's not because we're telling Him what to do.
But hey, wanna hear an actual case where God did answer somebody's prayer? It ain't all God saying, "No," all the time. This happened at my church not a week ago. Our church isn't large enough to have a full staff. We can only pay the pastor's salary, and even that is sometimes a challenge. Even still, we have an assistant pastor who volunteers a lot of time and hours to run a prison ministry. He does a lot of good work in the Florida prisons, and he helps out individuals who have just been released from prison to get back on their feet. Lately he's been in need of a new car. His current car needs some repairs, and on top of that, it has no A/C. That's tough in Florida where it's summer 10 months out of the year. Recently a car was donated to our church. We have couple who currently teaches in the Iraqi-Kurdistan region (about 3 hours away from the front lines) who had no need to keep their car here in the states, so they gave it to the church. The assistant pastor was willing to pay for it, but instead they opted to give it to the church, and he would buy it from the church. That way, the church would get the money, right? Well, out of the blue, the counsel agrees to give it to the assistant pastor for free, and even pay for the title transfer. Not a single person was expecting that. Even I didn't see that coming. Heck, I was even questioning why he didn't just give the money to the church and avoid all the paperwork mess of transferring it from the original owner to the church and finally to the assistant pastor! But when God provides you with a new car, you don't question it.
So long answer; no. Prayer is extremely important. It is an act of obedience, an act of faith, and an act of trust. We tend to over-focus on the doom-and-gloom of the world, because that's what our news outlets focus on, but the reality is, God answers a lot, and I mean a lot of prayers, and bestows his blessings on a lot of things that you might not realize.
But no, it's not because we're telling Him what to do.
Im also sure that every burglar, car thief, murderer, arsonist, rapist, and other similar also got their prayer answered when they committed a crime and didnt get caught, or got caught and perhaps through a legal loophole, were released. Its easy to say that prayer is sometimes answered and sometimes not.
Does God really want everyone praying to him about whose football team is going to win, having brisket for dinner, give me a car with an air conditioner? If I was God, I would push the ignore button on these type of whiney people. But guess what? Half the people who prayed for one football team over the other got their prayer answered. Didnt they. Does that make them more Gods favorite, since God listened to them? I truly believe that prayer is only for the person praying, not for any divine being. The proof? If prayer really worked, more people would be praying. The people I see in life doing all the praying are people who are lost in life and convicts. Obviously this is a stereotype, but from my perspective, these are the people who I see doing all the praying.
Its my understanding, and I could be wrong that in the time of Jesus, there was no praying but only sacrifices and it wasnt until a bit later that prayer was started. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Today quite literally thousands of children will die. Many of their parents, and the kids themselves probably, will pray for help they don't receive. Why does your god give your church a car but not help out here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234
God's intervention with your church seems pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things. Your situation and the video above seem to have a lot in common.
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
- 19
- 81
And it's simple observational bias. It's the same type of phenomenon as a cashier would experience: You go through 350 customers a day, but three lousy customers shade your memory of the entire day, and you can't help but think about how much you hate your job. Even though those people were a small portion of the total traffic, you'll dread having to face "so many" encounters like that.
Or there are always those cases where there's some kind of accident, like a high-speed multi-car pileup on a highway, or a plane crash, and the one or two survivors will talk on the news about how grateful they are that God saved them. Meanwhile behind them is the burning wreckage, complete with the trapped, destroyed, charred bodies of those who were evidently unworthy of saving.
(If you want to say "Well they're in heavenly paradise now!" then you really should be feeling pity for the unfortunate survivors who were instead condemned to survive and remain on Earth for some decades longer.) Or you can also have someone survive, but they'll be severely crippled for life. Saying that this is God's plan for them and that this is a challenge for them to overcome is akin to cutting one leg off of a dog and announcing that this will be a positive experience for it.
Yet God is constantly held up as being the most benevolent entity known.
It's all just far too much cognitive dissonance for me to handle myself.
Ventanni
Golden Member
- Jul 25, 2011
- 1,432
- 142
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Abraham prayed. Moses prayed. Joseph prayed. David prayed. Solomon prayed. Daniel prayed. These individuals were around long before Jesus. Prayer isn't anything new. People have prayed for thousands of years. Even practitioners of non-Christian religions have prayed for thousands of years before Christ came about. Also, the sacrifices you speak of were to cover for one's sins. There's a lot more depth to the meaning and purpose behind the sacrifices, but the Old Testament tells us of the ultimate sacrifice that God would send, ending the the practice of sacrificing animals. That was Jesus.
Moving on.
As for the people who seem to be doing most of the praying the ones who are either lost in life or convicts, that's just purely your perspective. And I don't say that from a, "Neener neener yer wrong!" kind of stance, but if I were to watch the news, it would seem like nothing good ever happens. But we both know that's not true. Lots of great things happen to people all the time.
The reality is, lots of people pray. Lots of successful, well-to-do, and/or stable people pray. Lots of average, well-meaning individuals pray. And, lots of non-believers pray because they're in search for something. That's when the Holy Spirit reveals himself to individuals.
And as for God pushing the "ignore button" because 100 million people are all simultaneously praying for the Steelers to win the Superbowl, good thing we're not God, right? He has infinitely more patience than we do.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,213
- 5,794
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Abraham prayed. Moses prayed. Joseph prayed. David prayed. Solomon prayed. Daniel prayed. These individuals were around long before Jesus. Prayer isn't anything new. People have prayed for thousands of years. Even practitioners of non-Christian religions have prayed for thousands of years before Christ came about. Also, the sacrifices you speak of were to cover for one's sins. There's a lot more depth to the meaning and purpose behind the sacrifices, but the Old Testament tells us of the ultimate sacrifice that God would send, ending the the practice of sacrificing animals. That was Jesus.
Moving on.
As for the people who seem to be doing most of the praying the ones who are either lost in life or convicts, that's just purely your perspective. And I don't say that from a, "Neener neener yer wrong!" kind of stance, but if I were to watch the news, it would seem like nothing good ever happens. But we both know that's not true. Lots of great things happen to people all the time.
The reality is, lots of people pray. Lots of successful, well-to-do, and/or stable people pray. Lots of average, well-meaning individuals pray. And, lots of non-believers pray because they're in search for something. That's when the Holy Spirit reveals himself to individuals.
And as for God pushing the "ignore button" because 100 million people are all simultaneously praying for the Steelers to win the Superbowl, good thing we're not God, right? He has infinitely more patience than we do.
We don't even Know if these people existed, nevermind what happened to them.
Ventanni
Golden Member
- Jul 25, 2011
- 1,432
- 142
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We won't always understand why people suffer the way they do. We live in a sinful world ripe with corruption, greed, and murder; the unfortunate consequence of man's original sin. I get it. Why is it that the United States, as imperfect as it is, is vastly richer and enjoys a higher level of freedom than countries in Africa? Videos such as these sadden me because they represent a lot of unnecessary anger and hatred towards God for things they don't understand or simply aren't true. I watched the video because I genuinely respect your viewpoint, but the words the writer places in God and Jeffrey's mouth in this video are a woeful misrepresentation of what God teaches us about about free will. I know this because I've read it and studied it.
That's why I encourage you to do the research yourself. Would you trust someone to perform a major heart bypass surgery because they watched a couple videos on how to do it on YouTube, or build your brand new car because watched one being assembled on How It's Made? Of course not. So I challenge you to read it for yourself. The video and my church's situation have nothing in common.
What would you say is misrepresented in the video? I didn't become an atheist because I haven't researched on my own. The idea of an eternal paradise is much better than believing my consciousness will probably just go away when I die, much like before I was born. It isn't a happy ending, but just because I would like a better outcome doesn't make it real. To me the video makes a lot of sense, but I wouldn't mind hearing how you feel it isn't an accurate representation of freewill god has given us.
I've heard people (my sister in fact being one, but not the only one) insist that god did provide them with a miracle. She had a school bill that was something like $1200 that she couldn't pay. She prayed on it, and it turned out to be an error, she only had to pay about $100. She is sure that was a miracle. To me that sounds very, very selfish to be honest. Of all the miracles that could be performed, that's where she thinks god put his energy? Her bill was more deserving than the countless other grave situations in the world happening right now? Helping someone financially that is already one of the richest people in the world? (we often don't realize it, but we are very well off compared to the billions that live in poverty. We don't see it because we only compare how we are dong to other Americans, not to people in third world countries.)
I agree with the theme of the video, but if you have a different take on free will I'm open to listening.
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
- 19
- 81
Isn't it nice having a benevolent God who insists on punishing generations of people for things that they never did?
Should we model our justice system after that?
If someone commits a crime, then we should also punish all of their descendents, continued indefinitely?
So much so that an outside observer would consider our definition of "poverty" to be the normal state of living on this planet, based simply on the portion of the human population that has to live like that. :\
Ventanni
Golden Member
- Jul 25, 2011
- 1,432
- 142
- 106
The tomb of King David can be visited. You can also read his work in the Bible (he wrote the majority of tthe Book of Psalms). King Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, and Proverbs. Daniel's supposed tomb can also be visited (six supposed sites though). Moses wrote the ten commandments as well as the Book of Exodus. Abraham is a little harder to physically verify, but he is recognized as the father of all three major religions: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
This stuff is ancient by today's standards. Not exactly any photographs or selfies to independently verify, but there's plenty of evidence supporting their existence.
The thing is most Christian apologists believe that god/Jesus reveals himself to each person and it's up to the individual to accept/reject the holy ghost. Not sure about the other two Abrahamic religion.
Instead of what the OP proposed, I would propose that every parent NOT teach a thing about their respective religion. No exposure to any sort of teachings or holy book whatsoever. If one is truly faithful assuredly the "right" god will reveal to their offspring.
The problem right now is that religion HAS TO BE taught for it to gain any traction and survive. There isn't enough faith for what I propose. In some countries religion is culture so it's inescapable.
Instead of what the OP proposed, I would propose that every parent NOT teach a thing about their respective religion. No exposure to any sort of teachings or holy book whatsoever. If one is truly faithful assuredly the "right" god will reveal to their offspring.
The problem right now is that religion HAS TO BE taught for it to gain any traction and survive. There isn't enough faith for what I propose. In some countries religion is culture so it's inescapable.
And what is original sin that doomed us all according to christianity? A talking snake convinced a woman made form a guy's rib to eat a magic forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge, that's what did us in. Hard to believe from my standpoint.
Right, exactly. And that is where he's performing miracles, for the world's top 1% to get my sister out of what in the grand scheme of life would probably be a financial inconvenience?
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,213
- 5,794
- 126
That's all nice and I know that's what many believe. When it comes down to it though, there is no Evidence that any of that is accurate, especially Moses and Jesus.
Israeli Historians, purposely looking for Evidence of Moses and the events surrounding Moses, could not find one shred of any of it. No evidence of Jews being slaves in Egypt(or of any Slavery in Egypt for that matter). No evidence of an exodus of Jews from Egypt or the alleged calamities that preceded it. No evidence of a large group of people wandering in the desert for 40 years then leading a massive invasion into Palestine.
As for Tombs and the like, these types of things are almost always fakes. Even if they can be shown to be authentic and thus lending credence to the existence of person X, that lends no credence to the details of the claims made in the Bible, especially those involving the bizarre. It was not uncommon for outlandish claims to be made of individuals in the Ancient world, it still even happens today.
There is no compelling reason for anyone to accept the Bible's claims today, outside of Blind Faith. Especially if one also chooses to reject other Ancient claims of outlandishness. For us in this Age, we have the same amount of evidence for any Ancient supernatural claim. It sums up to be bupkis.
bradly1101
Diamond Member
bshole
Diamond Member
- Mar 12, 2013
- 8,315
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disappoint
Lifer
- Dec 7, 2009
- 10,132
- 382
- 126
If we do we won't have to bother with any of that pesky annoying empirical evidence crap. By the way did I mention Ventanni is a murderer? Don't ask me how I know, I just DO. Or God told me. Just put him away.
BurnItDwn
Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 26,160
- 1,634
- 126
If you are god, then I too am god. Hello moonbogg god, I am burnitdwn god. How do you do this fine afternoon?
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