Let Me Know Your Preferences

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
After 9/11 and the Clinton Administration, people today are in a frenzy about the activities of the Bush Administration. But the current administration's activities are not without precedent. After the Iranian hostage fiasco and the weak perception of the US during the Carter Administration, the Reagan Administration went on a spending spree in space. Reagan spent billions of dollars on a missile defense space program dubbed "Star Wars." The economic fallout was severe. Unemployment percentages were in the teens (unlike what we have today). Recession was on a national scale.

But the political fallout was unprecedented and truly historical. The new arms race was one in which the soviets could not keep up with. With massive protests already going on in their satellites states, Gorbachev simply could not compete. Already morally bankrupt, the Soviet Union became financially bankrupt and went down at the end of the decade.

Bush senior, upon his election, cleaned house and set about some fiscal policies that eventually brought spending in check. Clinton continued the economic policies started by Bush and was custodian to the longest boom in American history.

Today, Bush is in a similar situation that Reagan inherited. In addition to the aforementioned policies of the former President, Bush is accused of being too simplistic and un-diplomatic when he branded Hussein's Iraq, Iran, and North Korea an "Axis of Evil." Eerily reminiscent of Reagan calling the Soviet Union an "evil empire", career diplomats are furious at the President for making such a "rash" statement that could hinder all the hard work of the State Department over the years. But history proved Reagan correct. Some believe that the verdict is still out on Bush.

But I digress. My question here is, in hindsight, which would you have preferred: the recession that followed Reagan's spending spree or the Soviet Union's continued existence?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,100
5,640
126
So Bush is going to outspend...who? Won't/can't work, Terrorists(Al Queda) don't need to spend $billions to cause havoc, they'll just use others $s(9/11) to.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
0
I see...so the soviet union was evil and we were right completely the whole time? Not saying they weren't without fault, but if you think our feces doesn't stink boy are you ego-centric. While I absolutely despise the cold war, it wasn't a one sided situtatoin, so overall I'd take an opposing political philosophy over rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading any day.

That pretty much answer your question?
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I see...so the soviet union was evil and we were right completely the whole time? Not saying they weren't without fault, but if you think our feces doesn't stink boy are you ego-centric. While I absolutely despise the cold war, it wasn't a one sided situtatoin, so overall I'd take an opposing political philosophy over rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading any day.

That pretty much answer your question?

What he ^ said.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I see...so the soviet union was evil and we were right completely the whole time? Not saying they weren't without fault, but if you think our feces doesn't stink boy are you ego-centric. While I absolutely despise the cold war, it wasn't a one sided situtatoin, so overall I'd take an opposing political philosophy over rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading any day.

That pretty much answer your question?

What he ^ said.

Opposite of what he ^ and he ^^ said. :D

CkG
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I see...so the soviet union was evil and we were right completely the whole time? Not saying they weren't without fault, but if you think our feces doesn't stink boy are you ego-centric. While I absolutely despise the cold war, it wasn't a one sided situtatoin, so overall I'd take an opposing political philosophy over rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading any day.

That pretty much answer your question?

What he ^ said.

Opposite of what he ^ and he ^^ said. :D

CkG

Here I'll write it up for you then......

CAD will take rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading over an opposing political philosophy any day.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I see...so the soviet union was evil and we were right completely the whole time? Not saying they weren't without fault, but if you think our feces doesn't stink boy are you ego-centric. While I absolutely despise the cold war, it wasn't a one sided situtatoin, so overall I'd take an opposing political philosophy over rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading any day.

That pretty much answer your question?

What he ^ said.

Opposite of what he ^ and he ^^ said. :D

CkG

Here I'll write it up for you then......

CAD will take rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading over an opposing political philosophy any day.

Yep - if that's what you think Bush, Reagain and Republicans are and have brought -then so be it - It proves the blindness.:D

CkG
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I see...so the soviet union was evil and we were right completely the whole time? Not saying they weren't without fault, but if you think our feces doesn't stink boy are you ego-centric. While I absolutely despise the cold war, it wasn't a one sided situtatoin, so overall I'd take an opposing political philosophy over rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading any day.

That pretty much answer your question?

What he ^ said.

Opposite of what he ^ and he ^^ said. :D

CkG

Here I'll write it up for you then......

CAD will take rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading over an opposing political philosophy any day.

Yep - if that's what you think Bush, Reagain and Republicans are and have brought -then so be it - It proves the blindness.:D

CkG


What's odd is that we both think it proves blindness, but not towards the same side. :cool: Isn't life funny like that?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,100
5,640
126
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I see...so the soviet union was evil and we were right completely the whole time? Not saying they weren't without fault, but if you think our feces doesn't stink boy are you ego-centric. While I absolutely despise the cold war, it wasn't a one sided situtatoin, so overall I'd take an opposing political philosophy over rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading any day.

That pretty much answer your question?

What he ^ said.

Opposite of what he ^ and he ^^ said. :D

CkG

Here I'll write it up for you then......

CAD will take rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading over an opposing political philosophy any day.

Yep - if that's what you think Bush, Reagain and Republicans are and have brought -then so be it - It proves the blindness.:D

CkG

:D

Perhaps some details would prove your innocent of Bob's charges, as it stands he appears correct. ;) :)
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I see...so the soviet union was evil and we were right completely the whole time? Not saying they weren't without fault, but if you think our feces doesn't stink boy are you ego-centric. While I absolutely despise the cold war, it wasn't a one sided situtatoin, so overall I'd take an opposing political philosophy over rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading any day.

That pretty much answer your question?

What he ^ said.

Opposite of what he ^ and he ^^ said. :D

CkG

Here I'll write it up for you then......

CAD will take rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading over an opposing political philosophy any day.

Yep - if that's what you think Bush, Reagain and Republicans are and have brought -then so be it - It proves the blindness.:D

CkG


What's odd is that we both think it proves blindness, but not towards the same side. :cool: Isn't life funny like that?

yep;)

CkG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I see...so the soviet union was evil and we were right completely the whole time? Not saying they weren't without fault, but if you think our feces doesn't stink boy are you ego-centric. While I absolutely despise the cold war, it wasn't a one sided situtatoin, so overall I'd take an opposing political philosophy over rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading any day.

That pretty much answer your question?

What he ^ said.

Opposite of what he ^ and he ^^ said. :D

CkG

Here I'll write it up for you then......

CAD will take rape of the constitution, new mccarthyism, empirical conquest, ignorance, ego-centricism, special interest catering, petroleum servitude, and zealotous crusading over an opposing political philosophy any day.

Yep - if that's what you think Bush, Reagain and Republicans are and have brought -then so be it - It proves the blindness.:D

CkG

:D

Perhaps some details would prove your innocent of Bob's charges, as it stands he appears correct. ;) :)

Bob said something? But if you looking for proof that I'm innocent - I ask of what? He is correct how?
To say that Reagan/Bush/Republicans are looking to do or have done all those things is Blindness - partisan blindness. They are not guilt free as I have said many times but I much prefer their positions(Republicans;)) over what the "other side" brings to the table.

CkG
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
"My question here is, in hindsight, which would you have preferred: the recession that followed Reagan's spending spree or the Soviet Union's continued existence?"

My first point- the economic problems caused by Reagan were more complicated than the increased defense spending, the biggest was probably too much deregulation(S&L's for example), tax cuts that were too big, and too little investment in infrastructure and education. Most of the damage could have been reversed by relatively minor tax increases, which is what Clinton succeeded in doing eventually. If these sensible adjustments had happened sooner then the increases could have been even smaller. But Bush,sr. added several trillion dollars to debt solely to get elected in 1988 with his 'no taxes' pledge.

second point- we had a long history of out-spending the USSR, under Democrats and Republicans, I don't think the additional spending that Reagan introduced was particularly significant, they weren't keeping up with us long before Reagan became President. I think it was more a culmination of decades of spending more than they could afford coupled with a fairly rational leader, Gorbachev, coming to power. Oh yea, and there's the fact that communism doesn't work. :light:
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"My question here is, in hindsight, which would you have preferred: the recession that followed Reagan's spending spree or the Soviet Union's continued existence?"

My first point- the economic problems caused by Reagan were more complicated than the increased defense spending, the biggest was probably too much deregulation(S&L's for example), tax cuts that were too big, and too little investment in infrastructure and education. Most of the damage could have been reversed by relatively minor tax increases, which is what Clinton succeeded in doing eventually. If these sensible adjustments had happened sooner then the increases could have been even smaller. But Bush,sr. added several trillion dollars to debt solely to get elected in 1988 with his 'no taxes' pledge.

You're absolutely wrong, Bush went against his promise not to raise taxes, His raising of the taxes was what got the ball rolling for the long economic
recovery seen under Clinton. Are you saying Bush didn't raise taxes?


second point- we had a long history of out-spending the USSR, under Democrats and Republicans, I don't think the additional spending that Reagan introduced was particularly significant, they weren't keeping up with us long before Reagan became President. I think it was more a culmination of decades of spending more than they could afford coupled with a fairly rational leader, Gorbachev, coming to power. Oh yea, and there's the fact that communism doesn't work. :light:

You Didn't answer my question, which was very simple. In fact no one here seems to have answered my question.

 

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
7,024
0
0
the reason no one answered (although i think people did)
may be because many people dont believe it was a simple 1 or 2 option scenerio. the soviet union would have failed regardless of spending so...we dont know how long that would have taken nor the ramifications of their prolonged stability. in this case, the most easily tangible idea to accept is: i would rather not have recession (an impossiblity, no?)
your question seems too narrow for me to answer to your satisfaction.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
8,356
126
Originally posted by: Dari

But I digress. My question here is, in hindsight, which would you have preferred: the recession that followed Reagan's spending spree or the Soviet Union's continued existence?

spending sprees are expansionary, not contractionary. the recession was largely caused by increasing world oil prices in the early 80s, and also by paul volker's fight against inflation (somewhat similar to today's recession, where we had oil prices increasing from what was probably a historical low in 1998 and alan greenspan increasing the interest rate the fed charges banks)

take a look at the first table from the doe
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,406
6,079
126
After 9/11 and the Clinton Administration, people today are in a frenzy about the activities of the Bush Administration. But the current administration's activities are not without precedent. After the Iranian hostage fiasco and the weak perception of the US during the Carter Administration, the Reagan Administration went on a spending spree in space. Reagan spent billions of dollars on a missile defense space program dubbed "Star Wars." The economic fallout was severe. Unemployment percentages were in the teens (unlike what we have today). Recession was on a national scale.
--------------------
Republican military industrialists and campaign contributors did well.
----------------------------------------
But the political fallout was unprecedented and truly historical. The new arms race was one in which the soviets could not keep up with. With massive protests already going on in their satellites states, Gorbachev simply could not compete. Already morally bankrupt, the Soviet Union became financially bankrupt and went down at the end of the decade.
--------------------------------
No, the Russians got fed up with their system and changed it themselves.
---------------------------------------------------
Bush senior, upon his election, cleaned house and set about some fiscal policies that eventually brought spending in check. Clinton continued the economic policies started by Bush and was custodian to the longest boom in American history.
------------------------------------------
We got Clinton after 'read my lips'
-------------------------------
Today, Bush is in a similar situation that Reagan inherited. In addition to the aforementioned policies of the former President, Bush is accused of being too simplistic and un-diplomatic when he branded Hussein's Iraq, Iran, and North Korea an "Axis of Evil." Eerily reminiscent of Reagan calling the Soviet Union an "evil empire", career diplomats are furious at the President for making such a "rash" statement that could hinder all the hard work of the State Department over the years. But history proved Reagan correct. Some believe that the verdict is still out on Bush.
-------------------------------------
The Republican strategy is to wreck the economy so there's no money to spend and social programs have to be cut.
-----------------------------
But I digress.
------------------------
More like went into a fantasy.
-----------------------------------
My question here is, in hindsight, which would you have preferred: the recession that followed Reagan's spending spree or the Soviet Union's continued existence?
---------------------------
Neither.

 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Dari

But I digress. My question here is, in hindsight, which would you have preferred: the recession that followed Reagan's spending spree or the Soviet Union's continued existence?

spending sprees are expansionary, not contractionary. the recession was largely caused by increasing world oil prices in the early 80s, and also by paul volker's fight against inflation (somewhat similar to today's recession, where we had oil prices increasing from what was probably a historical low in 1998 and alan greenspan increasing the interest rate the fed charges banks)

take a look at the first table from the doe

I know there really isn't a simple answer to my question, but when people jump to conclusions, make wild assumptions, or try to simplify things in one or two sentences, I'd like to ask a question in similar fashion.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
My preference is a move toward a more strict construction of the Constitution resulting in a much weaker Central Government resulting in much more power vested in the States and me. In this environment The power truly comes from the people and ends the usurpation that has evolved over the last 215 or so years. We have a group of Hamilton Clones in Washington and all I get is form letters and form emails to my questions and complaints. The Soviet Union was at the end of the Strong Central Government cycle and it imploded. The 'states' wanted the power back. They got it back. Their economy went south the same way any economy populated by depressed people will go.
The primary consideration in any environment is the attitude of the people. Charismatic leaders instill a sense of euphoria even when it is not warranted. Clinton and Reagan were Charismatic.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
"You're absolutely wrong, Bush went against his promise not to raise taxes, His raising of the taxes was what got the ball rolling for the long economic
recovery seen under Clinton. Are you saying Bush didn't raise taxes?"

No, go back and read what I said. If he was honest he would have campaigned in 1988 on a plan to correct the deficits, instead he ran on a plan of no new taxes. Eventually he was forced by Congess to raise taxes, but it was too little and several years too late, hence my comment about the trillions added to the debt.


And I answered your question, in my opinion we didn't have to do what Reagan did to end up with no USSR, so the premise of your question is faulty.
 

wirelessenabled

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2001
2,190
41
91
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"

second point- we had a long history of out-spending the USSR, under Democrats and Republicans, I don't think the additional spending that Reagan introduced was particularly significant, they weren't keeping up with us long before Reagan became President. I think it was more a culmination of decades of spending more than they could afford coupled with a fairly rational leader, Gorbachev, coming to power. Oh yea, and there's the fact that communism doesn't work. :light:


I agree completely.

I took an economics degree in the early 1970s and one of my advisors was a refugee from the Soviet Union who had spent a career at Gosplan, the Soviet central economic planning agency. He was saying at that time that the Soviet Union was about 10 years away from collapse economically. The discontinuities from the command structure of the economy were increasing and causing wider swings in output. The military's share of output was no longer sustainable at the levels they were at in the 1970s. My view has always been that Reagan might have hastened the Soviet collapse by a couple of years, if that, but the notion that he single-handedly caused it in a few years is not supportable.