Let it be known...

upsciLLion

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2001
5,947
1
81
That my opinion on embryonic stem cell research has changed. As long as embryos that would normally be destroyed are used (which is certainly not too much to ask for), I support it.

I've only recently started venturing into P&N. Evidently there is some worthwhile knowledge to be gained here. :thumbsup:
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,139
236
106
uh.... Yeah, Sure... Fine. Now that you voted for bush.

Too bad you couldn't have changed your vote eh? Nice one tho.

 

upsciLLion

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2001
5,947
1
81
Originally posted by: ericlp
uh.... Yeah, Sure... Fine. Now that you voted for bush.

Too bad you couldn't have changed your vote eh? Nice one tho.

I hope there will be more mature replies than this.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
It is sad that this may be the best recourse we have to the problem of reckless creation of embryos for artificial conception techniques. The more fundamental problem, then, is that the general lack of respect for human life leads to the willy-nilly creation of excessive numbers of embryos via in vitro fertilization. Thus, the seemingly unrelated issues are very much related, yet it is difficult to address one with respect to the other.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
I've only recently started venturing into P&N. Evidently there is some worthwhile knowledge to be gained here.
welcome and after years of p&n I have to say there is some worthwhile knowledge to be gained here but it has nothing to do with politics
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: upsciLLion
That my opinion on embryonic stem cell research has changed. As long as embryos that would normally be destroyed are used (which is certainly not too much to ask for), I support it.

I've only recently started venturing into P&N. Evidently there is some worthwhile knowledge to be gained here. :thumbsup:

Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go. - Joshua 1:9b

Welcome to P&N

Based on your sig, the Religious Radical Right that frequent in here will be more than happy to have you in their corner. or some reason they feel the Forum is overun with Liberals as well as the Media.

 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Originally posted by: upsciLLion
Originally posted by: ericlp
uh.... Yeah, Sure... Fine. Now that you voted for bush.

Too bad you couldn't have changed your vote eh? Nice one tho.

I hope there will be more mature replies than this.

Don't count on it. Please reference dmcowen674.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
76
It's a irrevlent. A fricken embryo is not even remotely a human being, its a mass of random cells that don't really do anything. I always thought that embroynic steam cell research used Un-Fertilized eggs...
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Tabb
It's a irrevlent. A fricken embryo is not even remotely a human being, its a mass of random cells that don't really do anything. I always thought that embroynic steam cell research used Un-Fertilized eggs...

That's Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer to which you're referring. It's part of the procedure called Therapeutic Cloning.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
75,000
6,815
126
This issue is fraught with the difficult realization that logic at it's heart is illogical. It is perfectly logical to conclude that life begins at conception: that just seems so natural. But that, coupled with the notion that life is sacred, leads to the irreducible paradox that a woman must be a prisoner to a fact of nature wholly accidental in evolutionary origin, namely that she conceives not by choice but by the presence of fertile sperm surrounding her fertile egg in sufficient numbers, regardless of how they got there. Such an absurd state of affairs tells us that we can't be logical and solve these emotional questions. Life is sacred because life is sacred when there is consciousness aware of that fact. This may mean that it is the consciousness that is in part sacred. It seems therefore that we project our own feelings of the awareness of the sacred on the fertilized egg and make of it an idol to which we will force women to bow.

Such a paradox is illogical and something, it seems, should give. I would say, therefore, that for the sake of the conscious woman, we cannot make an idol of her fertilized egg and must look at it only as a bundle of animated chemicals that are organized via billions of years of evolution in a particular way. We don't want to abandon the notion that life is sacred, but we don't want to make ourselves prisoner to it where to do so also leads to evil. Women need to be able to have children when they want them and also engage in sex as they choose. Clearly what is needed is sex education and efficient contraception so the issue arises as rarely as physically possible. Children should be born by choice, logically, but evolution had other ideas, since choice was late to the scene.

It strikes me as absurd that religious beliefs, doubtlessly founded in the need for soldiers and cultural expansion, should govern an over-populated earth.

This is, of course, at the heart of the stem cell issue and why religious limitations there are also insanely illogical.

The fear, of course for an absolutist, is that if life isn't sacred in certain cases it never is. That is a threat to faith, of a rather shallow kind, and threatens their belief in immortality and heaven. So for the sake of the wish to live forever, we will gladly ruin the one life we actually know that we have. But of course it's not our own life we wish to ruin, but the life of others.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This issue is fraught with the difficult realization that logic at it's heart is illogical. It is perfectly logical to conclude that life begins at conception: that just seems so natural. But that, coupled with the notion that life is sacred, leads to the irreducible paradox that a woman must be a prisoner to a fact of nature wholly accidental in evolutionary origin, namely that she conceives not by choice but by the presence of fertile sperm surrounding her fertile egg in sufficient numbers, regardless of how they got there. Such an absurd state of affairs tells us that we can't be logical and solve these emotional questions. Life is sacred because life is sacred when there is consciousness aware of that fact. This may mean that it is the consciousness that is in part sacred. It seems therefore that we project our own feelings of the awareness of the sacred on the fertilized egg and make of it an idol to which we will force women to bow.
We've been over this time and again. Choosing to have sex is hardly an evolutionary accident. You suggest complete disregard for any form of personal responsibility, instead using instinct as an excuse to act as you see fit. I'd also like to know exactly how you would propose we determine whether an embryo or fetus is aware or conscious and, if you cannot make such a proposal, how you can assume away the mere possiblity that an embryo is a person when this is the very issue at hand. After all, I cannot assume that because someone had a heart attack that they're no longer worthy of any level of respect simply because they're momentarily not conscious.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
2,847
0
0
And what some don't understand is that disallowing a woman's right over her own body is morally equivalent to state-sponsored forced surgury.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Kibbo
And what some don't understand is that disallowing a woman's right over her own body is morally equivalent to state-sponsored forced surgury.

My biggest problem with this particular issue is that once the child is born, all these so-called "pro-Lifers" could care less about the child. They should be called "pro-birth" not "pro-life."

As to the subject of embryonic stem cell research: if the embryos being used would've been thrown away and destroyed anyway, might as well use them to something worthwhile.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Kibbo
And what some don't understand is that disallowing a woman's right over her own body is morally equivalent to state-sponsored forced surgury.
And allowing it is morally equivalent to state-sponsored forced surgical dismemberment of some of its citizens - about 28% of incoming US citizens.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
2,847
0
0
Ahh, but they are not citizens, according to the Supreme Court.

And I would agree.
 

Grunt03

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2000
3,131
0
0
The so called pro lifers are aginst it, but if they were dying and the research could develope a cure they would be for like "stink on shit".........
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: upsciLLion
That my opinion on embryonic stem cell research has changed. As long as embryos that would normally be destroyed are used (which is certainly not too much to ask for), I support it.

I've only recently started venturing into P&N. Evidently there is some worthwhile knowledge to be gained here. :thumbsup:

Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go. - Joshua 1:9b

Welcome to P&N

Based on your sig, the Religious Radical Right that frequent in here will be more than happy to have you in their corner. or some reason they feel the Forum is overun with Liberals as well as the Media.

you truly have lost your marbles.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: nick1985
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: upsciLLion
That my opinion on embryonic stem cell research has changed. As long as embryos that would normally be destroyed are used (which is certainly not too much to ask for), I support it.

I've only recently started venturing into P&N. Evidently there is some worthwhile knowledge to be gained here. :thumbsup:

Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go. - Joshua 1:9b

Welcome to P&N

Based on your sig, the Religious Radical Right that frequent in here will be more than happy to have you in their corner. or some reason they feel the Forum is overun with Liberals as well as the Media.

you truly have lost your marbles.

Have to have "Marbles" to begin with to lose.

 

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
7,024
0
0
yup. while im for it anywho, i find that the whole "to be destroyed" argument helps those with moral/religious troubles with the idea have an easier time with it.
i understand those reservations, of course....but its good to know that science and religion can sometimes feel ok in the same room.
 

Gen Stonewall

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
629
0
0
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Ahh, but they are not citizens, according to the Supreme Court.

And I would agree.

cough *Dred Scott* cough

The Supreme Court's stance regarding unborn children is something that needs to be overturned as quickly as possible.
 

upsciLLion

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2001
5,947
1
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: nick1985
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: upsciLLion
That my opinion on embryonic stem cell research has changed. As long as embryos that would normally be destroyed are used (which is certainly not too much to ask for), I support it.

I've only recently started venturing into P&N. Evidently there is some worthwhile knowledge to be gained here. :thumbsup:

Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go. - Joshua 1:9b

Welcome to P&N

Based on your sig, the Religious Radical Right that frequent in here will be more than happy to have you in their corner. or some reason they feel the Forum is overun with Liberals as well as the Media.

you truly have lost your marbles.

Have to have "Marbles" to begin with to lose.

haha. I'm a moderate conservative. I will always be conservative, but not so much that I'm unwilling to soften my views on issues for the sake compromise and the narrowing of the political gap for the sake of America, which is a goal that I think too many have lost sight of.

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
As to the subject of embryonic stem cell research: if the embryos being used would've been thrown away and destroyed anyway, might as well use them to something worthwhile.

That's exactly what made me change my mind.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Ahh, but they are not citizens, according to the Supreme Court.

And I would agree.

cough *Dred Scott* cough

The Supreme Court's stance regarding unborn children is something that needs to be overturned as quickly as possible.

So your comparing thinking beings to a lump of cells.

:roll:
 

upsciLLion

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2001
5,947
1
81
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Ahh, but they are not citizens, according to the Supreme Court.

And I would agree.

cough *Dred Scott* cough

The Supreme Court's stance regarding unborn children is something that needs to be overturned as quickly as possible.

So your comparing thinking beings to a lump of cells.

:roll:

This debate has been run into the ground way too many times.

Wouldn't it be better to work toward a compromising solution that both sides can agree to rather than continue the annoying contention?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
75,000
6,815
126
CW: We've been over this time and again. Choosing to have sex is hardly an evolutionary accident.

M: This is a false representation of my case. It is the desire to have sex, the compelling need for it that is the product of evolution. People who choose to have sex are obeying their hatural healthy instincts and people who abstain do so because of unnatural sexual repression. What you call animalistic I call joy. Sex is natural beautiful and healthy and something everybody wants provided they haven't had their hands slap for touching their weenie and other such methods of torture like inculcating the notion that sex is sin.

CW: You suggest complete disregard for any form of personal responsibility, instead using instinct as an excuse to act as you see fit.

M: On the contrary, you disregard your personal responsibility to enjoy your animal self and relish in the pleasures the body can bring. You bottle up your animal nature which leads you, I fear, to want to enslave women. Your personal responsibility is to enjoy your life and to have responsible sex.

CW: I'd also like to know exactly how you would propose we determine whether an embryo or fetus is aware or conscious and, if you cannot make such a proposal, how you can assume away the mere possiblity that an embryo is a person when this is the very issue at hand. After all, I cannot assume that because someone had a heart attack that they're no longer worthy of any level of respect simply because they're momentarily not conscious.

M: Call it a hunch.