Legality question

Kelnoen

Senior member
Sep 20, 2006
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Not the standard question "Can I get b0rked connecting to unsecured wireless networks".

What happens if I have an un-secure wireless connection and someone connects to it.. without my knowledge and access illegal materials or downloads/shares copyrighted media.

Who is liable?

Also, what about large scale free wireless networks, does this mean people cannot be traced (thus making P2P and the such risk free)?
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
14
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fobot.com
what country? the USA ?
your example may be similar to an ISP, although in your case their is no contractual relationship with the leacher
http://www.bitlaw.com/internet/isp.html
Copyright liability concerns for internet service providers:

A party is guilty of copyright infringement if they violate one of the five exclusive rights given to copyright owners under the Copyright Act (as is explained in more detail in the BitLaw discussion on the scope of copyright protection). Included in those rights are the right to prevent others from reproducing (or copying) a work, publicly displaying a work, or distributing a work. It is clear that on-line service providers will be liable for copyright infringement if they are directly involved in the copying of protected material. For example, if a service provider were to place an electronic copy of the latest best-selling novel (or a pirated copy of Microsoft Word) on their bulletin board or web site, they would be guilty of copyright infringement. In these circumstances, an ISP is no different than any other party.

However, Internet Service Providers can be found liable for copyright infringement even where they are not directly engaged in the copying of protected materials. For instance, ISPs are responsible for equipment, such as a computer operating as a server, that is capable of making copies without any direct involvement of any person. Consequently, one relevant question is: "when is an ISP liable under copyright law for the copies made by its equipment?" As one example, the newsgroup servers controlled by ISPs make thousands of copies of newsgroup files everyday. Although some of these files undoubtedly contain copyrighted materials, no ISP has yet to be found guilty of copyright infringement merely for the unknown, autonomous action of their newsgroup servers.

Nevertheless, an ISP must be aware of the theories under the Copyright Act by which a party can be held liable for infringement even if they do not directly take part in the copying or distribution of a work. Under the concept of "contributory infringement," a party may be guilty of copyright infringement when they cause or contribute to the infringing conduct of another with knowledge of the other party's infringing activities. In addition, under the concept of "vicariously liability," a person may be liable for the infringing actions of another if the person has the right and ability to control the infringer's acts and receives a direct financial benefit from the infringement. Vicarious liability can be established without the defendant having actual knowledge of the infringer's activity. Under these two theories, it is possible for an ISP to be held liable for copyright infringement, even if the ISP was not directly involved in making the infringing copy.

there is a person on OT that is a lawyer or law school student that knows about this stuff, maybe they will post up
 

Kelnoen

Senior member
Sep 20, 2006
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I'm in the UK but I think the laws on this are such a gray area that they can neither be compared or contrasted.
 

homercles337

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2004
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Originally posted by: Kelnoen
No sign of lawyer boy? :p

You mean Don? I dont think this falls into his expertise area, but im sure he will have some ideas because i sure as hell dont.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
Originally posted by: Kelnoen
Not the standard question "Can I get b0rked connecting to unsecured wireless networks".

What happens if I have an un-secure wireless connection and someone connects to it.. without my knowledge and access illegal materials or downloads/shares copyrighted media.

Who is liable?

Also, what about large scale free wireless networks, does this mean people cannot be traced (thus making P2P and the such risk free)?


I bet if you read the agreement you have to sign with an isp, that somewhere in the fine print they tell you that you are liable for how your connection to the internet is used. And what steps are required to secure a wireless connection.

Pretending to be ignorant isn't likely to be a successful legal defense.

 

Zysoclaplem

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2003
8,799
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Originally posted by: Chaotic42
I can't think of any good reason not to secure your wireless network.

Some people just don't know that their wireless connection can be accessed outside their home.
 

Kelnoen

Senior member
Sep 20, 2006
409
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Originally posted by: Chaotic42
I can't think of any good reason not to secure your wireless network.

Thats why mine is, but many of my neighbours aren't.

And what about large scale free wifi?
how do they police that?
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
34,134
1,298
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Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: Chaotic42
I can't think of any good reason not to secure your wireless network.

Some people just don't know that their wireless connection can be accessed outside their home.

I suppose, but this guy obviously understands that it is possible. I can't see any good excuse for him not to secure it.
 

Zysoclaplem

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2003
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Originally posted by: Chaotic42
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: Chaotic42
I can't think of any good reason not to secure your wireless network.

Some people just don't know that their wireless connection can be accessed outside their home.

I suppose, but this guy obviously understands that it is possible. I can't see any good excuse for him not to secure it.

He might be asking about something that happened to someone he knows, or perhaps it might just be a question he has always wanted to know the answer to.
I have always wanted to know the answer to this question as well.
But I agree, it would be silly for him to have an unsecure connection.
 

chrisms

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2003
6,615
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I am not a lawyer but have worked for an ISP. I would assume you are responsible because where I worked, your home network was your own business. If you called and your router didn't work we would refer you to Netgear, D-Link, whatever. Our responsibility is to provide you with a modem that connects to the internet and we'll work as best we can in getting one computer online, with one of the first troubleshooting steps being bypassing the router.

It seems to me if you decide to have a wireless network that's your business, but you should secure it. If you don't want to run the risk of your connection being use maliciously. If it is I believe the company I worked for would blame you and never let you buy their service again if the offense was serious enough. You can beg and plead with the abuse department but they are like a brick wall, there is no changing anybody's mind once you've reached that point.

This seems similar to cases where e-mail spammer blame their kids, the most common excuse. It doesn't work.
 

Kelnoen

Senior member
Sep 20, 2006
409
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Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: Chaotic42
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Originally posted by: Chaotic42
I can't think of any good reason not to secure your wireless network.

Some people just don't know that their wireless connection can be accessed outside their home.

I suppose, but this guy obviously understands that it is possible. I can't see any good excuse for him not to secure it.

He might be asking about something that happened to someone he knows, or perhaps it might just be a question he has always wanted to know the answer to.
I have always wanted to know the answer to this question as well.
But I agree, it would be silly for him to have an unsecure connection.

I run PSK-WPA with a >48 character random character/symbol pass.

I was just interested in liability.
 

daveshel

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
5,453
2
81
Regardless of the liability, I restrict my wireless network by MAC address. If somebody sits in front of my house and surfs kiddie porn on my IP, I don't want to have to prove it wasn't me.

Legally, it probably falls under the 'knew or should have known' standard.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
You would be liable. You are operating the network. The "I didn't know" approach is similar to "ignorance is no excuse".

The "laws" surrounding this are not really formed yet as it is a new phenomena. There is no precident (sp?) I believe. Also, just connected to an unsecure network could be viewed as a federal crime because you are connecting to a network without explicit permission to do so.
 

sswingle

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2000
7,183
45
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I recall someone getting out of an RIAA lawsuit because they somehow proved that someone else was using their internet wirelessly, but I wouldnt count on that excuse working all the time.
 

hehatedme

Member
Jul 10, 2005
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Are you guilty if someone trespasses on your property and decides to deal drugs there? I don't know if that's a completely fair comparison, but I think its kind of relevant.
 

Kelnoen

Senior member
Sep 20, 2006
409
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I think you have a much stronger case if you DO secure your wireless network but someone breaks in and does something.

Surely they can't blame you for using the 'wrong' type of security?

Or what if you have a very low signal which can't normally be access from outside but someone has a crazy powerful aerial?
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
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Originally posted by: Kelnoen
I think you have a much stronger case if you DO secure your wireless network but someone breaks in and does something.

Surely they can't blame you for using the 'wrong' type of security?

Or what if you have a very low signal which can't normally be access from outside but someone has a crazy powerful aerial?


I agree with you. I'd someone circumvents your reasonable attempts to secure the connection, that would be a defensible argument.

As far as liability for an unsecured connection, I'm sure all wireless routers come with warnings about the need to secure the connection, and instructions how to do so, so there isn't any real way to claim ignorance, and I think most juries and/or judges would consider it negligent to not secure a wireless connection.

 

Kelnoen

Senior member
Sep 20, 2006
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Originally posted by: Tom
Originally posted by: Kelnoen
I think you have a much stronger case if you DO secure your wireless network but someone breaks in and does something.

Surely they can't blame you for using the 'wrong' type of security?

Or what if you have a very low signal which can't normally be access from outside but someone has a crazy powerful aerial?


I agree with you. I'd someone circumvents your reasonable attempts to secure the connection, that would be a defensible argument.

As far as liability for an unsecured connection, I'm sure all wireless routers come with warnings about the need to secure the connection, and instructions how to do so, so there isn't any real way to claim ignorance, and I think most juries and/or judges would consider it negligent to not secure a wireless connection.

I was forced to run my wireless unsecured for a time cause I had an ancient laptop that didn't run WAP properly, luckily a few days later I got a nice USB wifi dongle which sorted it.
But what if your equipment doesn't allow you to secure your network?
What happens then?
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
you probably increase the chance you will be sued, or go to prison.

nobody can tell you in advance what will happen..but it is illegal to distribute certain things like child pornography, and you might be doing so if someone uses your connection to do that.

whether you would get prosecuted, or convicted, isn't knowable until it happens.

but i think you'd be on thin ice.

 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Kelnoen
I was forced to run my wireless unsecured for a time cause I had an ancient laptop that didn't run WAP properly, luckily a few days later I got a nice USB wifi dongle which sorted it.
But what if your equipment doesn't allow you to secure your network?
What happens then?

You are still responsible for the network and would have to have other methods to prevent unauthorized use. Also, any standards based wireless gear allows some form of security so that's no excuse.

 

Pacemaker

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2001
1,184
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Originally posted by: spidey07
You would be liable. You are operating the network. The "I didn't know" approach is similar to "ignorance is no excuse".

The "laws" surrounding this are not really formed yet as it is a new phenomena. There is no precident (sp?) I believe. Also, just connected to an unsecure network could be viewed as a federal crime because you are connecting to a network without explicit permission to do so.

Ignorance (of the law) is no excuse. However, you are not responsible for the actions of others. Based on the same logic a hacker that hacked a company with weak security could use the network to do something illegal and it would be the company's fault which does not happen.

Ignorance is no excuse is refering to the fact that if you break a law that you didn't know existed that isn't an excuse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat

The law is different on this in every state. In florida you can be taken to jail for using an unsecured internet access point (that isn't yours). (saw it in the local paper) The person got arrested for unauthorized access to a private network.

Edit: found link http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/04/State/Wi_Fi_cloaks_a_new_br.shtml
 

Garet Jax

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2000
6,369
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Originally posted by: Kelnoen
Not the standard question "Can I get b0rked connecting to unsecured wireless networks".

What happens if I have an un-secure wireless connection and someone connects to it.. without my knowledge and access illegal materials or downloads/shares copyrighted media.

Who is liable?

Also, what about large scale free wireless networks, does this mean people cannot be traced (thus making P2P and the such risk free)?

Every network card has MAC address that is supposed to be unique world wide. Assuming no MAC spoofing, then you could possibly be traced that way.
 

Tobolo

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
3,697
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HOW do you secure your network? I have no clue about wireless security. I have the standard Linksys wireless router.