Legal Tender Question

[Nebor]

Alright, let's say you get a ticket, at oh.... I don't know, 1:05 in the morning for going 86 in a 60 (which you were not doing, you were only going 80mph, and you have a witness.) Now you have plans to go to court, with a jury if possible (in Texas) but you realize that you will probably lose. So after you stick it to them by the costly trial, you still want to get them with the payment.

I've looked it up on the treasury department website, and it says that only creditors being repaid a debt must accept all forms of legal tender. So when I'm assessed a fine, is that a debt? Is the city required to take pennies if I so choose to pay that way?

BTW, those of you who want to say "slow down" and "grow up", bring it on. I don't really care what you think, and it really livens up a thread.

 

[Actaeon]

Do you plan on carrying 300 rolls of pennies into the payment center?

Aquiring those pennies (through the bank I presume), as well as actually carrying it in, is probally more trouble than its worth. Those coins get HEAVY. I carry change to the workplace from the bank, about $400 (mix of quarters/dimes/nickles/pennies) worth. $150 in just pennies is going to be HEAVY.

Is there a problem with paying the fine (in a more usual fashion)? If you were guilty by the jurors/judge, just suck it up and pay the fine like a regular citizen. You were still speeding regardless if the officer was wrong about the speed.

To answer your question. I suppose you can use that form of payment, but you're going to piss alot of people off (bank, payment rep), and manage to pull a herina while you're at it...

Oh, and if you really want to piss someone off, don't keep it in rolls, just get a bunch of change (or keep it limited to pennies if you wish) and mix it up in a fairly large bucket and carry it in that way. They actually have to count each individual coin instead of the rolls, making it a much more tedious process.

 

[Nebor]

I have it calculated at 2.5 grams per penny and 36,000 pennies. It comes out to around 200lbs. A buddy and I can easily tote 200lbs in a bucket or sack upstairs to the court cashier.

I've been doing some more reading, and as I understand it, the reason businesses can deny change is because when you buy something, both sides are agreeing on a product and price; it's voluntary for you to buy, and voluntary for them to sell it.

HoweverA creditor, that is, one you are indebted to, must take any form of legal tender. And if the court says I have to pay, then I have to pay, I don't have a choice, I'm not buying anything, I'm indebted.

The old law of no more than 25 silver coins doesn't apply, because my coins aren't silver, and that was taken care of in 1933 or 1966 or something.

I can obtain the change from the bank, I'm sure they have that many pennies. Of course, they'd give it to me in rolls, and I'd have to break it out of the rolls and into the bucket or sack. My main concern is, that I'll get all these pennies in the sack, and then for whatever reason, have to reroll them or Coinstar them or something.

And my goal here is just to cause as much trouble as possible. I've gotten ticket after ticket on that damn highway, and I've always just paid my fine like a good little boy. I'm tired of taking it laying down.

 

[kami333]

Sweet, I can see that my tax dollars went to a lot of use couting all those pennies...

 

[Actaeon]

Well, if thats your plan, go for it. You know the law (i never looked it up myself), so I don't see why you cannot do it. Though, now that you mention it... I'm sure the government might have some form of coin counter.

For fun, throw some Canadian Pennies/Foriegn Coins in addition to your U.S. pennies to throw them off guard if they do decide to count it.

Be sure to create a thread on it (w/ pics of course, it'd be a classic thread).

Goodluck.

 

[MacBaine]

You know, any trouble you cause is just being paid for with YOUR tax dollars...... your infantile logic escapes me...

 

[pray4mojo]

I'm pretty sure they would require you to stay when all the pennies are being counted. If you have that much time, go for it.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: MacBaine
You know, any trouble you cause is just being paid for with YOUR tax dollars...... your infantile logic escapes me...

I don't live in the issuing city.

Anyways, I found this in the city's Code of Ordinances

Sec. 8-7. Fines payable in money.
All fines, costs, bonds or other required payment of any kind whatsoever shall be payable in lawful money of the United States only. Coins must be wrapped in coin wrappers of a type that are generally accepted and used by United States banking institutions. Each coin wrapper must be identified with the name of the person making payment or, if different, the name of the person for whom payment is made, the date of payment and the citation or other identifying number to which the payment pertains. Nothing in this section shall prohibit the payment of fines, costs, bonds or other required payment by check, provided that the check does not discharge an obligation unless the check is paid in full.

So I think that if I endeavored to pay with loose change, they would cite their city ordinance. But as I understand it, this puts their ordinance in conflict with United States law:

The law says that: "All coins and currencies of the United States, regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal-tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties and dues."

But that would require a run to the state supreme court to fight.... Which I'm not prepared to do.

So the way I'm seeing it, the most spiteful thing I can do is to bring in 360 rolls of pennies, or 360 one dollar bills. Also, it looks like I'd have to put my name, date, and citation number on every coin wrapper. How can they require this without requiring you to do the same for dollar bills?

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: pray4mojo
I'm pretty sure they would require you to stay when all the pennies are being counted. If you have that much time, go for it.

I'd bring a couple magazines, it would be worth it.

 

[Actaeon]

So the way I'm seeing it, the most spiteful thing I can do is to bring in 360 rolls of pennies, or 360 one dollar bills.

You do realize each roll is only 50 cents right? Thats 720 rolls of pennies to get $360.

I don't know if its violating US law... they accept coins, as long as its wrapped.

 

[OS]

I support this endeavor. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[pray4mojo]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: MacBaine
You know, any trouble you cause is just being paid for with YOUR tax dollars...... your infantile logic escapes me...

I don't live in the issuing city.

Anyways, I found this in the city's Code of Ordinances

Sec. 8-7. Fines payable in money.
All fines, costs, bonds or other required payment of any kind whatsoever shall be payable in lawful money of the United States only. Coins must be wrapped in coin wrappers of a type that are generally accepted and used by United States banking institutions. Each coin wrapper must be identified with the name of the person making payment or, if different, the name of the person for whom payment is made, the date of payment and the citation or other identifying number to which the payment pertains. Nothing in this section shall prohibit the payment of fines, costs, bonds or other required payment by check, provided that the check does not discharge an obligation unless the check is paid in full.

So I think that if I endeavored to pay with loose change, they would cite their city ordinance. But as I understand it, this puts their ordinance in conflict with United States law:

The law says that: "All coins and currencies of the United States, regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal-tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties and dues."

But that would require a run to the state supreme court to fight.... Which I'm not prepared to do.

So the way I'm seeing it, the most spiteful thing I can do is to bring in 360 rolls of pennies, or 360 one dollar bills. Also, it looks like I'd have to put my name, date, and citation number on every coin wrapper. How can they require this without requiring you to do the same for dollar bills?

I don't see how the city ordinance conflicts with the US law. The city is simply adding on to it by stating that the coins must be wrapped and labeled.

 

[TonyG]

$360 dollars in ones wouldn't take very long to count. I have counted out around $500 in ones before, it doesn't take that long. If you want to really make it a pain, get the money in coins like half-dollars, dollars, and quaters. Get various types of half-dollar and dollar coins, some of which are similiar in size and appearance. They will be even more of a pain then pennies. It is much less likely that the coin machines that one normally uses will recognize all of the coins correctly.

 

[Nebor]

Pennies are as much legal tender as dollar bills. THey don't require the dollar bills to be wrapped and labeled.

I forgot that there are only 50 pennies in a roll.... so 720 rolls. That I would label... That wouldn't be too bad. It couldn't take more than an hour or so.

If I go forward with this, I will definitely take pictures of the pennies.

Another question though, what exactly are my discovery rights? How do I request the evidence to be used against me from the DA? Do I just ask for all the evidence, or do I have to request specific peices of evidence?

 

[Nebor]

Come on, court date by August 3rd, let's help me mount a defense!

 

[natto fire]

Originally posted by: Nebor
Come on, court date by August 3rd, let's help me mount a defense!

I don't understand how you can have a defense if you were speeding. Yeah it sucks but thats what happens. I've gotten a ticket for 23 in a 20 before and I just paid it. If I had went to court the officer would have to go as well. And I really don't need a pissed off cop following me around, or pulling me over everytime he/she saw me.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Captain_Howdy

Originally posted by: Nebor
Come on, court date by August 3rd, let's help me mount a defense!

I don't understand how you can have a defense if you were speeding.

I guess you hadn't heard....

 

[Zebo]

Just get a lawyer and pay the tax. Why get tangled with the courts and the scum down there?

You won't even have to show..no points...no ticket when he's done. In Ca this runs about $400 in that speed range.

 

[Rastus]

I took cash to the county clerk window to pay the last ticket I got and they wouldn't take it. I had to go out and get a money order or cashiers' check. I don't know why they don't take cash, checks, or credit cards for tickets. It wasn't worth the hassle to argue the legal tender issue with them, I'm sure they have a way around it.

 

[jjones]

Wow, what a monumental waste of time. So, not only are you going to get convicted of the speeding infraction and pay money, you plan to invest valuable time by going to court to mount a fruitless defense and then, in a hopelessly childish act, paying in a manner that will take up the most of your time as possible. The civil servants don't care; they get paid no matter what idiocy happens, and they will have a good laugh on the job at your expense, thereby entertaining them on what would be an otherwise mundane and boring day. The only net effect you will have is probably pissing the people off that are behind you in line to pay their infractions at the clerks office.

 

[Dissipate]

Nebor: My dad told me once that he knew a guy who owed money to a bank and tried to pay in bags of pennies like you are trying to do. The bank refused the payment, and he took it to court. He lost the case. Supposedly the legal tender laws can be added to by states or localities, setting a limit to the amount of coinage you can force a creditor to accept. Anyways, good luck.

 

[Vette73]

Na, don;t use pennys. Even better, get $1 doallar peices. Most drawer don;t have aplace for them and they weigh less then pennies so easier on you and more though on them. Also make sure you mix ther up between the new ones and old Susans. That way even if they got rolls for them they still can't do it.

Stick it to them


Or use 1/3 payment in dollar peices, and then the rest in dirty mixed up 1's and 5's. even better.

 

[sciencewhiz]

Maybe this guy will help you out.

 

[Spencer278]

I think you should cut the dollar bills in thrids. That way they have to spend hours taping them back together.

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

Originally posted by: jjones
Wow, what a monumental waste of time. So, not only are you going to get convicted of the speeding infraction and pay money, you plan to invest valuable time by going to court to mount a fruitless defense and then, in a hopelessly childish act, paying in a manner that will take up the most of your time as possible. The civil servants don't care; they get paid no matter what idiocy happens, and they will have a good laugh on the job at your expense, thereby entertaining them on what would be an otherwise mundane and boring day. The only net effect you will have is probably pissing the people off that are behind you in line to pay their infractions at the clerks office.

Well said :thumbsup:

Just pay the fine and get over it. No-one's gonna care about your little stunt and like you won't be the first person who's tried it either. You're just wasting time that's better spent doing anything else.