LED Recommendations?

[trclac]

Does anyone know of any brand of LED that meets either of the following:

1) candelabra base "60 watt equivalent" LED bulbs

2) LED bulbs that can be placed in a closed container that is situated over a shower/in a bath area in the "60 watt equivalent" range

Thanks!

 

[Howard]

nm

 

[wirednuts]

http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/86698/LED-78809.html

oops, e12 base? nope. i doubt youll find a 60w equivalent screw in bulb. you probably could do it custom though, with some cree led's.

 

[Imp]

Home Depot... Think I've seen some. Philips bulbs are priced reasonably well. Other brands like GE and Sylvania appear to have high prices for the same wattage and "features".

Edit: I've seen LEDs made for recessed lighting, but I can't find one that says it's specifically designed for "enclosed" or "not open" fixtures.

I have one Philips bulb and it says, "for use in open fixtures".

 

[Squisher]

As far as I know there are no "bulbs" approved for enclosed fixtures, however there are light kits made for recessed cans for use in a shower. With the light kit you'll get a unit that includes a bulb encased behind a lens with an integrated baffle.

 

[Jeff7]

This one from Philips might be as close as you can get.

Ooooh, looks like they've got a brighter one now, too.


However, I don't know how well it'll do in an enclosed space. A big problem with getting LEDs into mainstream use is the fact that their heat transfer requirements are very nearly opposite those of incandescents: Incandescent bulbs have a filament that's glowing at a few thousand degrees, so the idea is to inhibit heat transfer from it, so it doesn't burn down your house.
LEDs are the other way around. The LED emitters don't want to run too terribly far above 185°F, and the emitter die itself is quite small, so they need to get rid of that excess energy as effectively as possible.

Putting it in an enclosed fixture runs the risk of slow-roasting the LEDs and drive circuitry in the bulb.

 

[mrrman]

try ledliquidators.com

 

[Squisher]

This one from Philips might be as close as you can get.

Ooooh, looks like they've got a brighter one now, too.


However, I don't know how well it'll do in an enclosed space. A big problem with getting LEDs into mainstream use is the fact that their heat transfer requirements are very nearly opposite those of incandescents: Incandescent bulbs have a filament that's glowing at a few thousand degrees, so the idea is to inhibit heat transfer from it, so it doesn't burn down your house.
LEDs are the other way around. The LED emitters don't want to run too terribly far above 185°F, and the emitter die itself is quite small, so they need to get rid of that excess energy as effectively as possible.

Putting it in an enclosed fixture runs the risk of slow-roasting the LEDs and drive circuitry in the bulb.

That first bulb you linked to is going for $13 at Home Depot and is the best bang for the buck when it comes to LEDs.

 

[Hugo Drax]

The problem is they are all for open enclosures. If you use those in an enclosed fixture it will burn out. You are better off with CFLs for enclosed fixtures and LEDs for open enclosures.

 

[Ken g6]

I just put a bulb similar to this over my shower. I'm hoping because it's much smaller than the fixture, and because the one I got is dimmable and frequently dimmed, that it won't overheat and die. So far it's worked for over 12 hours.

 

[Cerb]

Does anyone know of any brand of LED that meets either of the following:

1) candelabra base "60 watt equivalent" LED bulbs

2) LED bulbs that can be placed in a closed container that is situated over a shower/in a bath area in the "60 watt equivalent" range

Thanks!

None. You need to get an LED fixture, to not throw money away. For a regular bulb base, in an enclosed space, get incan or CFL.

LEDs are like your CPU or GPU: very small dies, very high thermal density, and they can be damaged from heat. And, just like your CPU, the heat needs to be dissipated and then moved somewhere else, at the same rate it is being made. Once you start going above about 5 Watts (~15-25W "equivalent" ?), it just gets too hard to do in an enclosed space. With a fixture, the hidden top or side can be a fair heatsink.

Now, you could get lucky. You might have a recessed can that isn't closed, or something (I've only seen such in commercial buildings, FWIW), which would let you get away with a good bulb style assembly. But, a regular closed box in the ceiling would not be a good idea, for the time being.

 

[Imp]

This one from Philips might be as close as you can get.

Ooooh, looks like they've got a brighter one now, too.


However, I don't know how well it'll do in an enclosed space. A big problem with getting LEDs into mainstream use is the fact that their heat transfer requirements are very nearly opposite those of incandescents: Incandescent bulbs have a filament that's glowing at a few thousand degrees, so the idea is to inhibit heat transfer from it, so it doesn't burn down your house.
LEDs are the other way around. The LED emitters don't want to run too terribly far above 185°F, and the emitter die itself is quite small, so they need to get rid of that excess energy as effectively as possible.

I have the first one you linked to (except I paid $27 for it... eff), and it's labeled "for open fixtures". Sounds like my overall impression is right that LEDs just aren't made to sit in a box and will bake itself to death.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Recommendations? Wait until LED manufacturing goes into overdrive and prices drop. After all the first transistors were $250.00 one-off hand built packages that had a fifty percent failure rate that turned into a very stable $1.00 durable component in about five years due to impovments in manufacturing processes.

 

[shortylickens]

Thought this was a flashlight thread.

 

[Cerb]

Recommendations? Wait until LED manufacturing goes into overdrive and prices drop. After all the first transistors were $250.00 one-off hand built packages that had a fifty percent failure rate that turned into a very stable $1.00 durable component in about five years due to impovments in manufacturing processes.

We're already well past that point. An LED light, however, is not like a $1 transistor. It's like a an amp that happens to use $1 output transistors (among other things, the aluminum attached to the transistors cost more than the transistors did).

The LED(s) need to be protected from line surges and noise, need to be given a clean DC low voltage (current-controlled) from a ~120VAC input, with minimal waste heat, and then the heat needs to go somewhere, so that they stay within their design temperatures. There are LED packages on the market made to take the 120V directly, and handle the rest internally, but they aren't so cheap, may still need some filtering, and still need just as much heatsinking.

 

[shortylickens]

We're already well past that point. An LED light, however, is not like a $1 transistor. It's like a an amp that happens to use $1 output transistors (among other things, the aluminum attached to the transistors cost more than the transistors did).

The LED(s) need to be protected from line surges and noise, need to be given a clean DC low voltage (current-controlled) from a ~120VAC input, with minimal waste heat, and then the heat needs to go somewhere, so that they stay within their design temperatures. There are LED packages on the market made to take the 120V directly, and handle the rest internally, but they aren't so cheap, may still need some filtering, and still need just as much heatsinking.

More and more there is incentive to develop a household DC standard. I would not be surprised if LED lighting paves the way for such a future.

 

[Jeff7]

More and more there is incentive to develop a household DC standard. I would not be surprised if LED lighting paves the way for such a future.

Though even so, you'll need some kind of regulator for the LEDs, though I usually see some exceptionally efficient DC-DC converters, moreso than efficient AC-DC converters, though that may be biased due to what I happen to encounter during my job. And of course, the more efficient it is, the less heat it's going to generate and need to dissipate. But, you can of course also buy some pitifully inefficient DC-DC converters.

The less-efficient (typically), but far cheaper alternative: A simple linear regulator that acts as a smart resistor, modulating the voltage across the LED load so as to pass through the necessary current. The excess energy is converted into heat, which the linear regulator then needs to dump away.

 

[shortylickens]

Though even so, you'll need some kind of regulator for the LEDs, though I usually see some exceptionally efficient DC-DC converters, moreso than efficient AC-DC converters, though that may be biased due to what I happen to encounter during my job. And of course, the more efficient it is, the less heat it's going to generate and need to dissipate. But, you can of course also buy some pitifully inefficient DC-DC converters.

The less-efficient (typically), but far cheaper alternative: A simple linear regulator that acts as a smart resistor, modulating the voltage across the LED load so as to pass through the necessary current. The excess energy is converted into heat, which the linear regulator then needs to dump away.

Yes but you wouldnt need the transformer or rectifier inside the bulb body, and that saves both space and cost.

 

[Cerb]

But, you can of course also buy some pitifully inefficient DC-DC converters.

You can, but simply search eBay for, "dc-dc converter," and you'll find that high-efficiency ones, at good nominal voltages, are pretty cheap, and likely to only get cheaper, as more of the recent high-power switching ICs come out.

It wouldn't make sense for high-power devices, since 120VAC (or greater) is already there and ready, but for phones, small lamps, battery chargers, etc., it could make some sense. Right now, it's mainly used in closed systems, like business phone systems, commercial wifi, alarm systems, surveillance, and so on, all with their own chosen voltages, line specs, and connectors. Just having some standardization across industries would be nice, if nothing else.

 

[trclac]

Wow, thanks all for your comments and insights. I didn't realize a question about LEDs would elicit more than a couple replies.

I will read through this chain and try to at least find a good candelabra bulb, since it appears LEDs in an enclosed fixture don't exist.

Thanks again. Appreciate all the thoughts on this!

 

[Jeff7]

Yes but you wouldnt need the transformer or rectifier inside the bulb body, and that saves both space and cost.

Either way, it'd benefit greatly from a new fixture design.
Each light "bulb" would require its own driver circuitry, whether you want to mount it separately or in the luminaire itself. (Whichever type of driver circuitry you're using, whether it be a linear or switching driver.)

Voltage drop may become an issue if you're doing low-voltage DC over any appreciable distance, unless you start boosting the size of the conductors. But, if you get some decent incentives and volume for a design, you could see some very efficient AC-DC converters.
Or it could go the other way, and we'll see many households with 120VAC -> 30VDC converters that are only about 65% efficient, and will sit also there eating several watts per hour when they're idle.

Wow, thanks all for your comments and insights. I didn't realize a question about LEDs would elicit more than a couple replies.

I will read through this chain and try to at least find a good candelabra bulb, since it appears LEDs in an enclosed fixture don't exist.

Thanks again. Appreciate all the thoughts on this!

LED lights are intertwined with the shift away from incandescents to more efficient lighting methods - and this matter is of course politicized, so some people get very emotionally worked up over it.


For my sake, I just like LEDs and efficient devices and processes. :sneaky:

 

[wirednuts]

Recommendations? Wait until LED manufacturing goes into overdrive and prices drop. After all the first transistors were $250.00 one-off hand built packages that had a fifty percent failure rate that turned into a very stable $1.00 durable component in about five years due to impovments in manufacturing processes.

and because noyce started selling them for less then cost

 

[Squisher]

Here are a couple examples about what I'm talking about. There are many more shower LEDs just on the Home Depot site.


Entire shower LED fixture

Just the light kit (bulb, baffle, and lens)

 

[trclac]

LED lights are intertwined with the shift away from incandescents to more efficient lighting methods - and this matter is of course politicized, so some people get very emotionally worked up over it.


For my sake, I just like LEDs and efficient devices and processes.

I'm there with you ... I just like the idea of having bulbs that I don't have to replace so often. I know that the claims of 22+ years of useful life are exaggerated, but if I can get half that, it would still be better than what I deal with now. We have so many bulbs in this house, it seems I am constantly replacing some bulb in some room ...

 

[Jeff7]

I'm there with you ... I just like the idea of having bulbs that I don't have to replace so often. I know that the claims of 22+ years of useful life are exaggerated, but if I can get half that, it would still be better than what I deal with now. We have so many bulbs in this house, it seems I am constantly replacing some bulb in some room ...

That's not too terribly out-there. If properly designed**, you can get at least 50,000 hours of on-time out of an LED. That's more than 6 hours of on-time per day for those 22 years.

The tricky part is probably going to be any electrolytic capacitors in the power supply, especially if they choose to cut costs on them; or else it'll be a part in the input section if it wasn't built to handle some exposure to the transient spikes and fluctuations that commonly show up on the mains.


** A big IF there. If the junction temperature of the LEDs is allowed to get too high, due to poor thermal design, their brightness will deteriorate more quickly. In addition, as LEDs get hotter, the light output will decrease (Maybe only 5-10% with the blue dies used in white LEDs) and the color might shift slightly.