Lebanese PM: We don't want the Palestinians

[SamurAchzar]

Beyond that, Israel is just like any other nation, if it commits aggression on its neighbors, it will win aggression from its neighbors. So its a two way street, and right now, IMHO, long past the time Israel has secured the military strength to guarantee its existence, it acts like the neighbor from hell, and thus more than earns the hatreds of its neighbors. An absolutely untenable long term strategy for Israel
when Israel is out numbered 5.5 million to some 275 million.

You're talking as if the animosity towards Israel started in 1967. The Arab hatred to Israel (and later, the pan Muslim hatred towards Jews) started in 1920 with pogroms performed against Jews that either settled in, or were long time residents of Palestine.

Meanwhile the Palestinian problem is a growing problem. And is a huge source of Israeli hatred that is costing Israel both its international support, and making Israel into international terrorism target #1.

When was the last time Israel was hit by AQ and the likes? International terrorism has no business in Israel, they concentrate their efforts on the Christians, which are a much softer target. Show me one case of international terrorism aimed at Israel. America bothers OBL much more than Israel does.

The fact is and remains, a just and credible State of Israel cannot rest on Palestinian repression. But a viable Palestinian state would do much to foster Arab acceptance of Israel and start reducing and not increasing mid-east tensions.

I agree with you. The current situation is not viable for the long term, for many reasons. I don't like Israel controlling the Palestinians any more than you do. It is an evil, but a necessary one at this point.

At least IMHO, at these peace talks, its time for Israel to step up to the plate, support a Palestinian State, and that can go a long way towards securing a more peaceful mid-east. And Israel is also going to have to tell it bat shit crazy settler parties, the simple word of NO.

Again I agree with you. Nethanyahu should come forward ready to dissolve all settlements and give the most generous of offers towards the Palestinians (just like Barak in 2000). There's absolutely 0% chance that the Palestinians will accept it without the "right of return". They are not looking to build a Palestinian state according to the Partition Plan, what they look for is a state together with mass immigration back to Israel, thus creating two Palestinian states - all the while their new state will be ethnically cleansed of Jews (as Abbas said himself).
Without the unlimited right of return, Abbas would not make a deal, he will not be considered the traitor who let go of the Palestinian refugee narrative. Even if he does, Hamas won't let this happen.

Because if Israel does not say yes to a viable Palestinian State, then events will simply escalate. And now the USA, maybe Israeli supporter number one, will either have to tell Israel our support is contingent on a Palestinians State or the rest of the world and our allies will desert the USA.

Again you overplay the significance of the Palestinians. Even the Arabs themselves don't care about them outside of the potential demographic instability caused. You really think there would be a tear between US and EU because of the Palestinians, when there are issues like Iran and China in the background?

Well tick tick tick, only two more days for Israel to extend the settlement freeze, failing that, events are likely to spin out of control in the coming months.

I'm all for the settlement freeze. Nethanyhu should play the game through like his predecessors did. He can count on the Palestinians for finding a reason to halt the talks (just like they are trying to do with the settlement freeze; you really think few hundred structures are an obstacle to a peace agreement?

Nethanyahu gets A+ up from me up to now.

The situation will persist until there's a war large enough to allow Israel deportation of the West Bank Palestinians into Jordan. It's their homeland.
There won't be any other way; the area of the British Palestine can not sustain both the Jews and the Palestinians together. Not enough water, not enough land, not enough of a buffer between hostile populations. There will be another solution, but not in the next few years.

 

[Lemon law]

Well Sammy, you just hit all the pro-Israeli propaganda talking points, but its unlikely to stand any factual tests. But still Israel has been playing this whole sad and sorry dance tune for 43 years now and getting away with it so far.

But at some point in time and it may be 2010, that song won't play anymore. Just like JediYoda, I am not going to get in any pissing contests over it because we are not the deciders. But world opinion is turning decidedly against Israel. And the USA is now somewhat Israel's last defender. And I am predicting that sooner or later, Obama must choose between Israel and the interests of the entire world. And we will know that choice when the USA abstains rather than veto's anti-Israeli UN resolutions in the security council.

Netanyuhu is betting his political life on continued Obama support if he does not extend the settlement freeze. What Israel has gotten away with for the past 43 years as they build illegal settlements, talk talk, and talk, as Israel continues settlement policy. Now there are 500.000 illegal Israeli settlers that will have to go,
and everyone is buying into the idea that its counter productive to just peace to allow any more Israeli settlement. Like all great lies, there comes a day when they no longer work.

Meanwhile the rest of the world will act, and at a minimum almost certainly resume Gaza flotillas. Especially since the UN has ruled the boarding of the Marma illegal and ruled that the Israeli embargo of Gaza is illegal to boot.

The JOS warning may be all to real, rather than try to dope slap Israel militarily, an international embargo of Israel is the more likely method.

In short Sammy, its going to be events and not propaganda that will drive the Palestinian Israeli peace process.

I can't predict those events and neither can anyone else, but the sun is setting on the Israeli hard liners.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Well Sammy, you just hit all the pro-Israeli propaganda talking points, but its unlikely to stand any factual tests. But still Israel has been playing this whole sad and sorry dance tune for 43 years now and getting away with it so far.

Was it a sad and sorry dance tune when Barak made his concessions to Arafat in Camp David? It was Clinton who blamed Arafat for failing the talks, calling the Israei position unprecedented.

But at some point in time and it may be 2010, that song won't play anymore. Just like JediYoda, I am not going to get in any pissing contests over it because we are not the deciders. But world opinion is turning decidedly against Israel. And the USA is now somewhat Israel's last defender.

The world opinion turns against Israel for the brief period Muslims don't blow up Western cities. With the next - imminent - bombing, you'll see the trend shifts.

And I am predicting that sooner or later, Obama must choose between Israel and the interests of the entire world. And we will know that choice when the USA abstains rather than veto's anti-Israeli UN resolutions in the security council.

Since when have the Palestinians become an "interest of the entire world"?
USA will never give up on an ally like Israel, for a whole lot of reasons, while the Palestinians have exactly 0 to offer anyone.
You also seem to think Obama will be elected for another term. What happens if - lets have a wild idea here - Palin takes office?

Netanyuhu is betting his political life on continued Obama support if he does not extend the settlement freeze. What Israel has gotten away with for the past 43 years as they build illegal settlements, talk talk, and talk, as Israel continues settlement policy. Now there are 500.000 illegal Israeli settlers that will have to go,

Israel can evict these people in days, like it shown in Sinai and Gaza. It does not want to; why would Israel do any such steps before an agreement (which IMHO will never materialize)?

and everyone is buying into the idea that its counter productive to just peace to allow any more Israeli settlement. Like all great lies, there comes a day when they no longer work.

If you want just peace, what about compensation the Jews who had to flee Arab states, leaving their homes and properties behind?

Meanwhile the rest of the world will act, and at a minimum almost certainly resume Gaza flotillas. Especially since the UN has ruled the boarding of the Marma illegal and ruled that the Israeli embargo of Gaza is illegal to boot.

You're talking as if the Gaza flotilla was sponsored by states other than Turkey. European officials were against the flotilla in the first place, and still are. I'm sure Israelis would be wiser in the way they deal with the flotillas in the future. So far, the last incident played enough of a deterrent to stop any consecutive flotillas, as you already know.

The JOS warning may be all to real, rather than try to dope slap Israel militarily, an international embargo of Israel is the more likely method.

You keep repeating the same points taken straight from your own private political fantasy world. With Iran developing nukes, China terrorizing Asia, Turkey becoming a 2nd Iran, the problems of Iraq and Afghanistan, and a recession that threatens to strike again, you think the world really gives a fuck enough about the Palestinians to embargo Israel?
And even if the world really wanted to, there are enough people around the Capitol Hill who'd never let this fly. Obama learned a lesson once already, trying to undermine Israeli interests and being reigned in by the house and the democrats.

Currently the Palestinian situation is one of photo-ops and make-believes. No one really thinks there will be peace - other maybe than rookie Obama - it's just comfortable for everyone to talk about it. The Palestinians themselves are of no interest to anyone, certainly not enough to endanger the relations with Israel.

It's like saying US will embargo France for deporting Gypsies. What the hell is going through your crazy little mind?

 

[Lemon law]

Keep telling your self those little lies and one day you will be amazed when you only fooled your self.

Sure Israel can evict the Palestinians like they already did with the Palestinian residents of Israel, but who will take them? No, Sammy, your bright idea only viable alternative is for Israel to ape Hitler and just set up gas ovens and crematoriums. And see what the world thinks of Israel then. Of course you could hope the Palestinian people will grow gills and swim away also.

Meanwhile the rest of the world may not care much for Israel or the Palestinian people, but the whole world has a huge stake in a peaceful and stable mid-east. And when Israeli actions are now the greatest threat to mid-east stability, it does not bode well for Israeli intransigence. The mid-east can't be stable as long as the Palestinian questions are unsettled, and that includes addressing the right to return.

The can has been kicked down the road for at least 43 years now, you may think Israel can get away with it for another 43 years, and I am somewhat guessing that Israel can't.

How much longer Israel will get away with it is another question, but I suspect Obama will still be in office as the pressure builds.

Only time will prove which of us are correct, but Israel has lost Turkey and that is going to loom large. Egypt may join Turkey and possibly Jordan.

But like a game of musical chairs, Netanyuhu may be the first to find he has no chair to sit in come 9/28. Or failing that his seat may be too hot to sit in for long.

 

[JEDIYoda]

First let me say it would be nice if there could be a lasting peace in the middle east.


Lemon Law seems to think that they key to Israel being accepted in the middle east is contingent upon how Israel treats the Palestinians.

Plus Lemon beLieves that Israel is 100% responsible for the Palestinians!
That just is not true at all!!

Let me say it would be nice if somebody would step up to the plate and take 100% respnsibility for the Palestinains instead of just using the Palestinian people.....


It seems the Palestinians were outcasts long before the events of 1948 transpired.

In fact the world as a whole has never been concerned about the "Palestinian" people. Even their own Arab brothers have turned a blind eye towards them.

It would seem that the Palestinians are truly their own worse enemy.

Then we have the right to return? That will never happen, ever. You cannot have two Palestinian States.

Then we have the settlement issue which is just that an issue the Palestinians are using to avoid peace.

I am sure that if a Peace was declared today that Netenyahu would dismantle the settlements in a matter of days or weeks! But there is no reason for the Israeli`s to keep on giving....why?

As a sign of good faith, perhaps?
How many signs of good faith are needed?

Then we have those who say the Palestinians need to be compensated, how about compensating both sides that had to flee and give up houses and land??


This is probably the most accurate and well thought out statement I have read concerning what the Palestinians truly want --

SamurAchzar
Again I agree with you. Nethanyahu should come forward ready to dissolve all settlements and give the most generous of offers towards the Palestinians (just like Barak in 2000). There's absolutely 0% chance that the Palestinians will accept it without the "right of return". They are not looking to build a Palestinian state according to the Partition Plan, what they look for is a state together with mass immigration back to Israel, thus creating two Palestinian states - all the while their new state will be ethnically cleansed of Jews (as Abbas said himself).
Without the unlimited right of return, Abbas would not make a deal, he will not be considered the traitor who let go of the Palestinian refugee narrative. Even if he does, Hamas won't let this happen.

The bottom line is Sammy is almost 100% correct in all his responses towards what Lemon law has posted.

When you look at world events as they are unfolding, to be brutally honest - the world as a whole could care less about the Palestinian issues.

The world does not evolve around this whole mess.
Now don`t get me wrong, if somebody lobbed a nuclear missle into this mess then the world would take notice..

Finally whats interesting about dealing with the Pro-Palestinian lemon law`s of the world -- They refuse to get in a pissing contest because they know and understand that unless they get away from making up there own history they will be shot down.

For example Lemon Law spouting the UN Charter which I proved by posting the exact wording that Lemon Laws "loose interpretation" was totally wrong.
How can anybody say that the words -- "member states" applies to non member states is beyond me!! It talks about how member states are to treat other member states.....lol....

That is why the Lemon`s or orange`s of the world won`t argue the facts as just facts -- because to truly be 100% pro Palestinian you have to make up your own history on this matter.

To be honest quite a bit of the time there are two sides to every argument and sad to say there really can be two sides that are both correct!!

Peace to all!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Only time will prove which of us are correct, but Israel has lost Turkey and that is going to loom large. Egypt may join Turkey and possibly Jordan.

A lot of wishing and false hope I see!
Currently there is nothing to even suggest a falling out between egypt and Israel.
Niether Egypt nor Jordan want anything to do with any sort of military engagement against israel.
As far as Turkey is concerned those of us who know will tell you in a heart beat Turkey was never ever a strong allie of Israel. talk is cheap and has been proven to be..

Yes, time will tell. For somebody who claims to want peace in that region everything you are wishing for leads away from any possible peace in that region of the world!!

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe JediY has hit the crucx of the Palestinian issue with, "But there is no reason for the Israeli`s to keep on giving....why?

Not only has Israel never ever given up anything other than the can't grow a weed Sinai desert, its been a 62 year Israel history of taking and taking and taking. So from a logical and fair sense, should not Israel now do the bulk of giving back?

But then again I can understand why Israel does not want to do the fair thing, that way they don't have to give back what does not belong to them.

And as long as their old song and dance works and the USA vetoes anything anti-Israel in the UN, Israel is going to play the same song and dance. Again and Again as long as it works.

But the the day may fast arriving where Israel will play the same old song, and it will not work. And as Goring once said, I then knew the jig was up.

Will the Israeli jig be up on 9/28/2010 if they do not extend the settlement freeze?
That is probably a no, but it will probably be the date the Israel sees the beginning of the end of that song and dance as world opinion turns decidedly anti-Israeli.

43 years is a little long for Israel to retain the West bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.
And until Israel is forced out, or sees a new reality, they will keep playing the same old song. Saying one thing and doing another, as Israel keeps taking and taking and taking more of what it cannot own.

 

[Lemon law]

Well for a summation of the latest positions as the settlement freeze deadline ticks down, I can only offer this link.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100925...bW1pdF9taWRlYXN0BGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb

But the official position of the US, the UN, the European Union, and Russia are that Israel should extend the settlement freeze. Missing in this link is the Egyptian position that if Israel does not extend the settlement freeze and the talks collapse, the onus will be on Israel.

As far as I know, China and India have taken no position, but its unlikely they would go to bat for Israel. So if Israel fails to extend the settlement freeze, every country that matters has taken a position against Israel if Israel fails to extend the settlement freeze.

The other joker in the deck is that Obama supposedly has his own alternate mid-east peace plan, and it may be laid on the table should Israel fail to extend the settlement freeze.

But the smart money also seems to be a last minute agreement on Sunday or Monday. Failing that, events will take over the debate as the sides are already chosen, Israel against the entire rest of the world.

Bat shit crazy Israeli settler parties are already preparing to act, and unless Netanyuhu is prepared to stop them, then the die is cast and Israeli options reduce to zero.

 

[EagleKeeper]

the Pals had 10 months to come to the table while the settlement freeze was in place. Israel handed them a chance. They refused it until the last moment; now they want a second chance. Offer up something that will quell Israel's fears and show that they are serious about peace. What have they brought to the table; demands - no solutions!

 

[Lemon law]

the Pals had 10 months to come to the table while the settlement freeze was in place. Israel handed them a chance. They refused it until the last moment; now they want a second chance. Offer up something that will quell Israel's fears and show that they are serious about peace. What have they brought to the table; demands - no solutions!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------SSome what totally wrong Common Courtesy, most of the total framework for a final mid-east peace agreement was basically hammered out at the failed Annapolis peace conference. Only final details have to be ironed out, meaning a final settlement can be easily done within the one year time frame set for the talks.

But Israel basically got their hands caught in the cookie jar at Annapolis, by extending settlements and control of disputed land, while not being a legitimate peace partner. The world is unlikely to let Israel get away with that crap again, so the stakes are very high now.

But again why engage in pissing contests when there is only one day and change left before events take their course. You read my link, you know the united positions of the USA, the UN, the EU, and Russia. If you think they are bluffing, well go ahead. Just don't get too bullish on Netanyuhu futures because Netanyuhu is running the bigger gamble very unlikely to work. Come 9/28, Netanyuhu may be unable to control the genie he let out of the bottle.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You read my link, you know the united positions of the USA, the UN, the EU, and Russia. If you think they are bluffing, well go ahead.

Read your link what does it say? Again are you going to invent what is being said like you did the UN charter which owned you? Or are you going to read the words without mis-understanding them?

Here is what the big four said word for word and don`t read anything into it --

The Quartet of Mideast peacemakers — the U.S., U.N., European Union and Russia — made a similar plea to extend the moratorium.

There was no hint nor even a whisper of dire and drastic consequences for Israel!
So again instead of being honest and addressing the issues truthfully, without making up your own history of event and without lending your own misconstrued interpretation of things tell me what exactly does the link you posted prove?

Nothing other than the big four believe that israel should continue the halt to new construction.

????????

 

[Lemon law]

The Jedi position is, "There was no hint nor even a whisper of dire and drastic consequences for Israel!"

Well, Jedi, they are not making any threats yet, but will they follow up with dire consequences if Israel ignores them? Or do you believe they just ask politely so they can flap their gums? Diplomspeak is a strange language.

We are likely to soon find out if Netanyuhu does not extend the settlement freeze. And much of the violence is likely to come from inside of Israel initially.

 

[EagleKeeper]

LL

You refused to answer the question:

Why did the Pals wait 10 months before coming to the table? What did it accomplish for them?
Not that they were serious about peace - more to see how much pressure they could put on Israel regarding the settlement freeze.

 

[Lemon law]

In all due respects, Common Courtesy, its now my role to defend or condemn all the illogical in all of the wrong on ALL sides thinking in the mid-east.

Its my job to say we are getting no where fast in terms of solving mid-east problems.

Now we are at the end of a new chapter of mid-east same ole same ole, and it will be the international community that solves the problem by new actions if Israel keeps playing resume settlement games.

Now Netanyuhu has decided Israel will again resume settlements and has probably lost the ability to control his settler parties, and now we will see if the international will finally end the same mid-east same ole same ole or not in 2010?

But sooner or later the international community will have to do so, because long term the Israeli strategy is untenable.

 

[SamurAchzar]

LL, do you honestly think that the building in the settlements - which is as limited as adding new structures in existing settlements and certainly not erecting new ones - is an actual problem? How long has it taken Israel to clear Gaza to the last settler?

 

[EagleKeeper]

In all due respects, Common Courtesy, its now my role to defend or condemn all the illogical in all of the wrong on ALL sides thinking in the mid-east.

Its my job to say we are getting no where fast in terms of solving mid-east problems.

Now we are at the end of a new chapter of mid-east same ole same ole, and it will be the international community that solves the problem by new actions if Israel keeps playing resume settlement games.

Now Netanyuhu has decided Israel will again resume settlements and has probably lost the ability to control his settler parties, and now we will see if the international will finally end the same mid-east same ole same ole or not in 2010?

But sooner or later the international community will have to do so, because long term the Israeli strategy is untenable.

Why can not Abbas offer a true peace to Israel.

Renounce the violence, accept Israel as a state, agree to accept responsibility for the actions of militants that exist in the West Bank.

Israel desires peace; why can not the Palestinians give it to them? The Arab nations finaly realized that Israel was not going anywhere and it was in their interests to stop with the direct attacks.
Israel withdrew settlements from Gaza hoping that that would stop attacks.
They can easily do the same in the West Bank is there is a justification for doing so.

 

[Lemon law]

"Why can not Abbas offer a true peace to Israel."

( What king of fantasy Island do you live in Common Courtesy? Israel can't guarantee the behavior of 100% of its citizens and neither can Abbas. Nor for that matter can any nation. All we can hope for is that a fairer deal to all will reduce violence to almost zero levels. But still Israeli talking points have weird double standards. Israeli settlers and the IDF are free to act brutally to Palestinians, but Israel is somehow not responsible because most Israelis do not act violently, yet if less than 1% of Palestinians engage in terrorism, they are all guilty. And moreover that guilt is hereditary and is shared by new born infants. )

"Renounce the violence, accept Israel as a state, agree to accept responsibility for the actions of militants that exist in the West Bank."

( More fantasy Island by Common Courtesy, Fatah has renounced violence as a tactic, even though Abbas does not consider a wholly Zionist State as a valid concept. Nor is Israel willing to recognize a independent Palestinian State independent of total Israel control. But there is a distinction to be made here, recognizing or liking another entity does not imply there must be violent opposition, we may not like Russia, for decades we did not recognize China, but for practical reasons we never went to war with either. )

"Israel desires peace; why can not the Palestinians give it to them? The Arab nations finaly realized that Israel was not going anywhere and it was in their interests to stop with the direct attacks.
Israel withdrew settlements from Gaza hoping that that would stop attacks.
They can easily do the same in the West Bank is there is a justification for doing so."

( This time Common Courtesy crosses from fantasy to outright Israeli lies and total propaganda. Israel does not desire peace and demonstrates it in every action. Israel wants to retain the land it stole from Palestinians, surrounding Arab States, and in the illegal gains of the 1967&73 wars. And now keeps extending its control and military dominance by illegal settlements. And yes the surrounding Arab States can't directly attack Israel so they fund proxy terrorism instead while Israel bombs them. But still, sooner or later anti-Israeli terrorism will grow from a mere annoyance to a real problem when and if terrorist acquire chemical, biological, radiological or Nuclear weapons. As long as Israeli builds the hatreds and does noting to defuse those hatreds, that is where we may be heading. But in more practical terms there are just two routes to a just mid-east peace. (1) A separate and viable Palestinian State. (2) Forcing Israel to assimilate its Palestinians with full voting rights, thus with voting power ending Israel as a religious State and transforming it into a secular State.
Pick one or the other Common Courtesy, but if Israel stalls too long on a Palestinian State, they are likely going to get only alternative #2 as they make alternative one no longer viable. )

 

[JEDIYoda]

Israel does not desire peace and demonstrates it in every action. Israel wants to retain the land it stole from Palestinians, surrounding Arab States, and in the illegal gains of the 1967&73 wars.

My God!! Quit your freaking whining!!
You won`t be happy until Israel gives the palestinians whatever they want.

Are you in competition with original earl for village idiot?

 

[Orignal Earl]

My God!! Quit your freaking whining!!
You won`t be happy until Israel gives the palestinians whatever they want.

Are you in competition with original earl for village idiot?

I haven't even posted in this thread.
Are you trying to make me biased against Israel? I won't lower myself to your level though.

If you hadn't posted that you served 6 years in US .mil Intel, that your son serves in the IDF, and that you make real good money singing in Catholic Church's.
I'd swear you are a child.