Learning to drive manual/should I buy this car?

[nitrous9200]

A while ago that I decided I wanted to learn to drive a manual, and since no one I know has such a car, I figured it was time to buy my own. I want something with four doors and a four cylinder engine for ~$3500 (no strict budget but around there), and preferably something more exciting than a bog-standard Japanese econobox.
So I've been perusing cars.com and craigslist and among all of the 20 year old Accords, Civics and Camrys, this popped out at me: http://newyork.craigslist.org/que/cto/3104320989.html

It's an 03 Saab 9-5 Aero for $2800 with ~150k miles, a parasitic battery drain, a leaky valve cover gasket and a coolant leak.
Based on a bit of research, most of the major issues are taken care of - PCV update (sludge), CPS, SID, and two keys (plus tires/brake pads etc). Clearly the car still needs some work, but while I have little car repair experience, I'd love to learn. I posted on the Saab forums and they liked it, and I emailed a bit back and forth with the owner; he seems to be an honest guy who took good care of the car. He actually emailed me just a few moments ago that he's looking into the coolant leak and will fix it, which is good news.

That being said, am I truly going to be in for a world of hurt buying this thing? I haven't had a chance to look at the car yet to see how bad the coolant leak is, and I expect to be able to solve the battery drain myself. Otherwise, the issues don't really bother me for the price. Just wondering what your thoughts were, or if you had any other recommendations...thanks.

 

[Sluggo]

I don't know your local market, but for $2500 you have to expect some 'imperfections.'

And seriously, if it takes you more than an hour to learn the basics of a manual and more than 4 hours to master it, you may have a congenital birth defect. I really don't understand the whole mystery of a manual transmission.

Read a "how stuff works on a clutch", and you can almost envision the workings as you fiddle with the pedals, it makes it very easy to learn if you know how it works.

 

[halik]

Do you have a garage or similar place to work on it?

 

[nitrous9200]

I don't know your local market, but for $2500 you have to expect some 'imperfections.'

And seriously, if it takes you more than an hour to learn the basics of a manual and more than 4 hours to master it, you may have a congenital birth defect. I really don't understand the whole mystery of a manual transmission.

Read a "how stuff works on a clutch", and you can almost envision the workings as you fiddle with the pedals, it makes it very easy to learn if you know how it works.

I agree that it doesn't seem tremendously difficult and I'm sure I'll be able to figure it out, I just need a car to do so. Around here, I think car prices tend to be a bit higher than average, and the issues this car has don't surprise me.

Do you have a garage or similar place to work on it?

It's got two cars in it right now but I can make room if I need to.

 

[Harrod]

That is a car of one of the members of Saab Central http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235421&highlight=battery, a 2003 Aero will have about 250hp and about the same amount of torque. These cars are relatively easy to work on, changing out a cv joint is much easier that say doing the same task on an Integra or civic.

I have no idea how you would troubleshoot the battery problem. Maybe pull fuses until the problem goes away?

 

[Stifko]

That car has been on CL for a couple of months at least. I was looking at it too, but never contacted the seller. I think it is a good deal and it looks as if it has been well maintained. I bet it is a blast to drive and very luxurious. Contact Swedish Saab Service in Brooklyn and see what they have to say about it. For that money you will be getting a lot of car and a stick shift too. I just spent $3K on a 1995 Volvo T5R and they only come in autos. I love the olive drab color and the interior is immaculate. Too bad someone tried to break into it but I could live with that little bit of damage on the door. Ask him if the clutch is original. There are a lot of little extras with the Aero package than with a regular 95.

 

[Insomniator]

That car has been on CL for a couple of months at least. I was looking at it too, but never contacted the seller. I think it is a good deal and it looks as if it has been well maintained. I bet it is a blast to drive and very luxurious. Contact Swedish Saab Service in Brooklyn and see what they have to say about it. For that money you will be getting a lot of car and a stick shift too. I just spent $3K on a 1995 Volvo T5R and they only come in autos. I love the olive drab color and the interior is immaculate. Too bad someone tried to break into it but I could live with that little bit of damage on the door. Ask him if the clutch is original. There are a lot of little extras with the Aero package than with a regular 95.

850R's definitely came in manual...

OP that looks like a nicer car for 3 grand, definitely worth putting some time into.

 

[JCH13]

I have no idea how you would troubleshoot the battery problem. Maybe pull fuses until the problem goes away?

Take a multimeter to the fuse box(es) and figure out what circuit is draining power. If it's not in the fuse box it's likely a main power line. Once you figure out what circuit it is you can isolate the exact cause (frayed insulation, bad relay, etc). Could even be a faulty/dirty main relay.

Yay electrical gremlins!

I'd be tempted to install a main battery kill switch.

 

[Zenmervolt]

850R's definitely came in manual...

Not in the US they didn't. Not from the factory anyway. There are some T5Rs and 850Rs running around with the European 5-speed manuals swapped in by owners later on, but officially Volvo only brought automatic versions of those cars to the US.

As for the OP: Buying an European luxury car that is not only out of production but also from a company that no longer exists and will have limited parts availability while on a relatively tight budget? Doesn't sound like the greatest idea in the world to me. If you need the car to be your daily driver and don't want to spend much on maintenance/repairs the SAAB is a bad idea.

ZV

 

[nitrous9200]

I hope to check out the car this weekend and if I do, I'll definitely ask him about the clutch. He said he was working on the battery drain problem as well, but as mentioned, it should just be a quick job with an multimeter. Battery kill switch sounds like an interesting idea.

I'm not going to need to depend on the car every day - I'm a college student currently working a summer job (takes me two minutes to bike there). So if the car was out of service for a while due to needing parts or whatever, I wouldn't be too bothered.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

And seriously, if it takes you more than an hour to learn the basics of a manual and more than 4 hours to master it, you may have a congenital birth defect. I really don't understand the whole mystery of a manual transmission.

Read a "how stuff works on a clutch", and you can almost envision the workings as you fiddle with the pedals, it makes it very easy to learn if you know how it works.

Says someone who learned after the invention of synchromesh.

 

[power_hour]

The tax on new cars is usually more than that car.

I say go for it and forget bout it!

 

[Ferzerp]

Says someone who learned after the invention of synchromesh.

What, are you pushing 100? *All* of us learned after *the invention of* synchromesh.

 

[Stifko]

Not in the US they didn't. Not from the factory anyway. There are some T5Rs and 850Rs running around with the European 5-speed manuals swapped in by owners later on, but officially Volvo only brought automatic versions of those cars to the US.

I think a manual transmission from a non turbo Amer spec 850 can be swapped into a T5R or R.

I agree that the OP should pull the trigger and buy that Aero. I hate electrical gremlins but if the seller is willing to fix the battery drain thing then you should totally do it. Those are great cars. I have heard that Saab tried to emulate the MB w140s when they made that generation 9-5.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I have heard that Saab tried to emulate the MB w140s when they made that generation 9-5.

They're a Saturn L-Series in fancy clothing. SAAB's marketing department can say what they want about trying to emulate MB, but the fact of the matter is that the 9-5 is just a gussied-up Opel Vectra and shares the same basic chassis with the Saturn L-Series.

I stand by my statement that it's a bad idea. The car is too new to be easy to work on (electronics troubleshooting is a royal pain), too rare to find good non-OEM parts options, and not nearly interesting enough to be worth the hassle. If it were something like an MGB or a Triumph or something that could easily be worked on by a shade-tree mechanic and which was interesting enough to be worth the trouble I'd think differently. But a 9-5 is likely to be one electrical gremlin after another and parts are only going to get more expensive.

ZV

 

[Harrod]

I stand by my statement that it's a bad idea. The car is too new to be easy to work on (electronics troubleshooting is a royal pain), too rare to find good non-OEM parts options, and not nearly interesting enough to be worth the hassle. If it were something like an MGB or a Triumph or something that could easily be worked on by a shade-tree mechanic and which was interesting enough to be worth the trouble I'd think differently. But a 9-5 is likely to be one electrical gremlin after another and parts are only going to get more expensive.

ZV

There is alot of truth in this statement, if you do by this car remember that most of the parts have to be ordered. If the direct ignition cassette goes out, you can't just go down to autozone and pick one up.

Also it's is nearly impossible to get a new cv-joint for the car, and when you do it doesn't include the companion flange. About 2 years ago I picked up my 9-5, and have problably spent another 1.5k on new motor mounts, cv-joints and other stuff.

While I do like the car, fixing all the little things that have come up has become time consuming.

 

[HarryLui]

Get a manual Saturn S-series.

 

[nitrous9200]

Looks like the forum ate the post I had just written, but I checked the car out today and it was exactly as described, a bit rough on the bodywork but otherwise in good working order. He said he'd come down to $2500 and I'll see if I can chip a bit more off - I'm going to need all-season tires as he's got summer tires on there now...it's a bit of a gamble but I think it's worth it (I'm also aware of the Saab parts situation). Especially considering I won't be driving the car much, I'm not too concerned about needing to replace parts.

Take a multimeter to the fuse box(es) and figure out what circuit is draining power. If it's not in the fuse box it's likely a main power line. Once you figure out what circuit it is you can isolate the exact cause (frayed insulation, bad relay, etc). Could even be a faulty/dirty main relay.

Yay electrical gremlins!

I'd be tempted to install a main battery kill switch.

He wasn't able to find the battery drain, though I suspect he might have made a mistake checking the fuses. Not likely, but in any case, installing a battery kill switch looks like a good bandaid for now. And besides, how hard could it be?

 

[Zenmervolt]

He wasn't able to find the battery drain, though I suspect he might have made a mistake checking the fuses. Not likely, but in any case, installing a battery kill switch looks like a good bandaid for now. And besides, how hard could it be?

Tracking electrical shorts is a huge pain in the ass and if it's not a fuse running new wires is one of my least favorite things to do on a car. Good luck kid, but don't say we didn't warn you.

ZV

 

[nitrous9200]

I should mention that I got the car on Tuesday.
After spending a couple of hours with my dad going through the workshop manual for the car and unplugging fuses, I found the ghetto aftermarket bluetooth adapter was the main cause of the problem. After plugging everything back in and letting it sit for half an hour (as specified in the manual) the draw is back to normal. I'll keep an eye on it but looks good for now.
In the meantime, the car is sitting in the garage as I wait for my brother in Florida to ship his plates back to us...since you all wanted to know.

 

[Sluggo]

Says someone who learned after the invention of synchromesh.

I won't disagree with that statement, but it wasn't all a cushy bed of roses.

My first standard experience was a 1975 Toyota Hilux, the same color as the long bed pictured:

My Dad owned a Hilux years before owning a Hilux was cool.

Most of my experience came from driving 60s and 70s era Ford F-600 and F-700 flatbed delivery trucks around a lumberyard that sported 4 speed transmissions and a two speed rear-end.

Start in first,
clutch-upspeed the rear, then
clutch-downspeed the rear, upshift the trans, then
clutch-upspeed the rear
clutch, downspeed the rear, upspeed the transmission...rinse and repeat.

And you have to continually remember if the position of the rear-end knob, I tell my wife that experience is why my fingers are so talented.

 

[Harrod]

I should mention that I got the car on Tuesday.
After spending a couple of hours with my dad going through the workshop manual for the car and unplugging fuses, I found the ghetto aftermarket bluetooth adapter was the main cause of the problem. After plugging everything back in and letting it sit for half an hour (as specified in the manual) the draw is back to normal. I'll keep an eye on it but looks good for now.
In the meantime, the car is sitting in the garage as I wait for my brother in Florida to ship his plates back to us...since you all wanted to know.

Congrats on the car and fixing your first quirky problem with it, I'm also on SaabCentral with the same username I have on here.

 

[Throckmorton]

They're a Saturn L-Series in fancy clothing. SAAB's marketing department can say what they want about trying to emulate MB, but the fact of the matter is that the 9-5 is just a gussied-up Opel Vectra and shares the same basic chassis with the Saturn L-Series.

I stand by my statement that it's a bad idea. The car is too new to be easy to work on (electronics troubleshooting is a royal pain), too rare to find good non-OEM parts options, and not nearly interesting enough to be worth the hassle. If it were something like an MGB or a Triumph or something that could easily be worked on by a shade-tree mechanic and which was interesting enough to be worth the trouble I'd think differently. But a 9-5 is likely to be one electrical gremlin after another and parts are only going to get more expensive.

ZV

Why would the parts be hard to find if it's a Saturn L?

 

[Arkaign]

Why would the parts be hard to find if it's a Saturn L?

ZV's statement is accurate, it is a product that is not a pure Saab, but rather a conglomerate platform, shared with things like the Saturn L-series and Opel Vectra.

However, the Saab 9-5 used a unique motor, transmission, and electronics, although the underpinnings are the GM9000 chassis. All of these special Saab things, such as the motor, all have dependent parts (starter, plugs, ECU, wiring, EGR, sensors, etc, etc) that are unique and not shared with the other siblings of the platform.

On the one hand, it made the Saab seem more unique and not just a re-skin, so that's a positive.

On the other hand, looking at the economics of scaled production, it made them each more expensive to produce despite the shared platform, and all dependent parts are less common and therefore less likely to find in local stock or to be competitively priced.

 

[Arkaign]

Fwiw, I think the Saab 9-3 switched over to the much easier to maintain GM Ecotec motor, which has something of a solid reputation in the enthusiast community for being hard to break and can handle a decent amount of added power on stock internals. And parts/support for an Ecotec is 1,000,000x easier.

/not a GM fan, but giving credit when it's due.