League of Legends - F2P MOBA (like DOTA) part 2

[zebano]

Meh, just because something Firsttime said, made me do some math.

Level 3 Skarner can have at max rank 2 W for 17% bonus. So lets calculate his move speed.

Skarner has a movement speed base of 320. Boots 1 add 50 move which flat are applied first.

With boots skarner is at 370 movement speed. Most junglers for 21/0/9 route with skarner. Some take the movement talent and some take the mana ones. Those that take the movement don't do more than 2 points so 1% extra movement speed.

So when skarner activates his rank 2 W ability he will gain 18% on top of 370.

370 x 1.18 = 436.6 movespeed.

However any value over 415 has a softcap applied to it. Which means any raw score points over 415 will be reduced by 20%. The raw points over are

436.6 - 415 - 21.6 raw points x .8 = 17.28 adjust score

415 + 17.28 adjusted score = 432.28 actual movement speed for a level 3 skarner with 1% movespeed talent and no movespeed runes.

Decent movespeed for sure to have at level 3 which is why he clears the jungle so insanely fast. Only Shyvana is faster really. While that high a movespeed is nice over long distances, over a short distance to catch someone it may not allow you to catch someone in time. A target foe with a base movement speed of 320ish (most common), no boots, and no escape ability is still going to make it back to tower range safely from the middle of the lane before either a skarner or an even faster shyvana can catch them when coming from the river in a race.

However, if the target is pushed up some and away from his tower a significant distance then skarner/shyvana will easily catch their prey before they make it back to the safety of the tower.

1. Movespeed quints
2. Yes Q has to hit twice (you mentioned this earlier) but you are ignoring his passive when you mention the 3 second cooldown.
3. Learn to orbwalk as you attack, applying 2 q is easy if they don't flash.
4. Most Skarner's go 0-21-9 not 21-0-9 check TheOddOnes guide on solomid.

Edit: Skarner is godly even pre-6

 

[HumblePie]

1. Movespeed quints
2. Yes Q has to hit twice (you mentioned this earlier) but you are ignoring his passive when you mention the 3 second cooldown.
3. Learn to orbwalk as you attack, applying 2 q is easy if they don't flash.
4. Most Skarner's go 0-21-9 not 21-0-9 check TheOddOnes guide on solomid.

Edit: Skarner is godly even pre-6

1) Most skarners do not take move speed quints. You are hurting your damage or tanking out put for minimal gain due to softcaps and how much movespeed bonus skarner gets later.

2) Passive assumes auto attacks landing as well. Chasing someone who is not slowed does not allow for melee auto attacks to go off very well.

3) Orbwalking doesn't exist in LoL

4) No, Saintvisciuos and most I've seen go 21/0/9 due to skarners inate tankiness. I have seen some go 0/21/9 and that works too if you plan on being the tank or main initiator for the team. In which case the initiating speed talent works well for skarner.



The general consensus is skarner is not "godly" pre-level 6 in his ganks. He has nothing to "seal the deal" with unlike other junglers that are godly pre level 6. He can only run at people and hope they are:

a) pushed up
b) not paying attention
c) don't have boots and/or escape abilities ready to use.
d) no wards out yet

If the target is not any of the three they have a good chance of living through a pre level 6 skarner gank. Otherwise skarner needs all of those things listed just right to get a good chance at a kill with an early gank. Good early ganking champs like Shaco do not really anything on that list at all although it most certainly helps increase even Shaco's chance at a kill for a given gank attempt.

EDIT for correction of orbwalking.

 

[RPD]

I thought orb walking was only in DotA and not needed as there is no back swing animation in LoL?

 

[Firsttime]

I thought orb walking was only in DotA and not needed as there is no back swing animation in LoL?

Orb walking in Dota had to do with heroes like Drow and Viper where you had spells whose animation you could cancel.

In LoL it just means moving between your autos to stay on people.

 

[HumblePie]

I thought orb walking was only in DotA and not needed as there is no back swing animation in LoL?

Oops. I had to do a search as well. I was thinking orbwalking was something else. Orbwalkig in DotA referred to being able to cancel the "backswing" animation. So you use an ability, such as firing an arrow, that would have an attack animation (bring the bow up to fire) the attack (firing the arrow) and a backswing (lowering the bow). By default all the animations had to be completed before you could fire the next attack if the attack was set to auto.

Players in DotA found out you could cancel the backswing animation early by just doing anything else. So if you were paying attention you would click to attack a character, watch the animation, and during the backswing reclick to attack. It would cancel the backswing animation and start the next attack animation sequence.

Unfortunately, that does NOT work in LoL and hasn't for awhile. You can not cancel or stop the full animation sequence for faster attacking and abilities.

Orbwalking does not exist in LoL. People still do it as a habit left over from DotA, but it provides no bonus.

 

[HumblePie]

Orb walking in Dota had to do with heroes like Drow and Viper where you had spells whose animation you could cancel.

In LoL it just means moving between your autos to stay on people.

Your character will automatically move in a straight line to make the next attack in LoL. You don't have to do anything. The reason you would WANT to change direction is because of creep traps. Where moving in a straight line may not be the fastest way to keep on attacking the same person. Usually this is ONLY a problem with ranged attackers and not melee attackers. Also it's because ranged champs have a tendancy to want to stop to auto attacking nearby minions if you are trying to chase a person. So many high elo players will either keep clicking on the target, move, click target, move, and click target to force the champ they are using to not waste time and an animation accidentally going for a minion.

The other reason is because ranged attackers have another default behavior if you just click once. They will stand still and fire auto attacks instead of moving between shots to get closer. You have to manually do this. Otherwise the target has a chance of getting out of range and forcing your character to then try to move to keep up. Which they then try to do auto attacks at the very edge of their range which makes them stop, try attack but stop during middle of the attack because the target is too far, then chase more.

So with a range champ you want to fire and as soon as you see the animation go off you need to move in a direction you want to be moving if you either plan on chasing or escaping based upon the scenario. Otherwise it may be too late to do what you want.

 

[RPD]

Ok good, I was getting really worried there like WTF backswing was supposd to be removed. I remember first playing with Ashe and a buddy said, no you don't have to do that anymore.

That shit was annoying.

 

[HumblePie]

Ok good, I was getting really worried there like WTF backswing was supposd to be removed. I remember first playing with Ashe and a buddy said, no you don't have to do that anymore.

That shit was annoying.

Yah that was taken out. Cancelling any part of the animation cancels the entire attack. You CAN cancel animations by moving or hitting S, but nothing will happen.

Even still you usually want to be moving between attacks if you are hanging out in an area. Especially to be moving in an unpredictable manner. This helps prevent flash + ability ganks. If you are moving constantly you may throw someone's skill shot off or an initiation attack where someone is trying to flash at you to use CC or big attack. For example, if I'm playing alistar one favorite move I like to do is flash at someone, pulverize them up in the air, move behind them, and then headbutt them in a direction I want them to be. If you are moving constantly it makes timing my initial flash to land the pulverize after much harder than if you are standing still like a duck.

 

[RPD]

I know, just animation canceling was tedious.

Regarding Alastair, I just found this out recently. You can head butt and and pulverize at damn near the same time if you are having issues lining up your pulverize, this is almost like a flash, but once the animation starts for the head but you pulverize and slam em up when you make contact. It has it's uses.

 

[Firsttime]

Players in DotA found out you could cancel the backswing animation early by just doing anything else. So if you were paying attention you would click to attack a character, watch the animation, and during the backswing reclick to attack. It would cancel the backswing animation and start the next attack animation sequence.

That wasn't orb walking. That was literally called Animation Canceling. Orb walking referred to heroes who had innate "orb" attacks. Or modified attacks, specifically castable slows, although there were others like Clinkz who the same principle kinda applied to. Heroes like Viper though had a slow, with 0 cooldown at level 5. So you could toggle it if you wanted. Or manually cast it. When you manually cast it you could move in between casts which gave you the ability to "walk" while casting the "orb." As they were slowed it made it easy to keep up. Drow Ranger had the same kinda thing, as did Clinkz, but his didn't slow, and the hero blew ass so no one cared.

 

[RPD]

That wasn't orb walking. That was literally called Animation Canceling. Orb walking referred to heroes who had innate "orb" attacks. Or modified attacks, specifically castable slows, although there were others like Clinkz who the same principle kinda applied to. Heroes like Viper though had a slow, with 0 cooldown at level 5. So you could toggle it if you wanted. Or manually cast it. When you manually cast it you could move in between casts which gave you the ability to "walk" while casting the "orb." As they were slowed it made it easy to keep up. Drow Ranger had the same kinda thing, as did Clinkz, but his didn't slow, and the hero blew ass so no one cared.

.. Not sure how to address this, animation canceling was orb walking just w/out a specific spell, but with auto attacks. It's the same thing.

 

[RPD]

So I decided to review some tribunal cases... WOW I don't know if I ever want to play ranked. Some horrible horrible looking games.

 

[zebano]

1) Most skarners do not take move speed quints. You are hurting your damage or tanking out put for minimal gain due to softcaps and how much movespeed bonus skarner gets later.

2) Passive assumes auto attacks landing as well. Chasing someone who is not slowed does not allow for melee auto attacks to go off very well.

3) Orbwalking doesn't exist in LoL

4) No, Saintvisciuos and most I've seen go 21/0/9 due to skarners inate tankiness. I have seen some go 0/21/9 and that works too if you plan on being the tank or main initiator for the team. In which case the initiating speed talent works well for skarner.



The general consensus is skarner is not "godly" pre-level 6 in his ganks. He has nothing to "seal the deal" with unlike other junglers that are godly pre level 6. He can only run at people and hope they are:

a) pushed up
b) not paying attention
c) don't have boots and/or escape abilities ready to use.
d) no wards out yet

If the target is not any of the three they have a good chance of living through a pre level 6 skarner gank. Otherwise skarner needs all of those things listed just right to get a good chance at a kill with an early gank. Good early ganking champs like Shaco do not really anything on that list at all although it most certainly helps increase even Shaco's chance at a kill for a given gank attempt.

EDIT for correction of orbwalking.

Yes i was reffering to animation cancelling and the ability to move between attacks which is quite important, Doublelift has been referring to it as orbwalking and I picked that up.

Skarner with w up this means that you q ->? hit -> move -> hit -> q and apply the slow quite easily or burn the flash. You continue to apply the slow and autoattack to lower your cooldowns meaning you can use your shield to tank 1-2 tower hits to secure the kill if you want. Skarner is godly, and a permaban, people do use movespeed quints. Nuff said.


Here's the jungle skarner guide I recommend following. 0-21-9 with movespeed quints...
http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=13232

Note that I use this exact same setup on Phoenix Udyr for similar effect.

 

[HumblePie]

Yes i was reffering to animation cancelling and the ability to move between attacks which is quite important, Doublelift has been referring to it as orbwalking and I picked that up.

Skarner with w up this means that you q ->? hit -> move -> hit -> q and apply the slow quite easily or burn the flash. You continue to apply the slow and autoattack to lower your cooldowns meaning you can use your shield to tank 1-2 tower hits to secure the kill if you want. Skarner is godly, and a permaban, people do use movespeed quints. Nuff said.


Here's the jungle skarner guide I recommend following. 0-21-9 with movespeed quints...
http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=13232

Note that I use this exact same setup on Phoenix Udyr for similar effect.

You can't animation cancel in LoL though and still have the attack or ability activate. If you cancel any part of the animation the ability is null and void, even auto attacks. Easy to see and prove. Just pick someone with a long wind down animation and starts off slow like trist or ashe. Then soon as the shot is fired you cancel with S. You'll see the bullet go flying, hit the target, but it will deal ZERO damage. It doesn't count as an attack. Thus you CAN NOT ORB WALK in LoL. There is no point to even trying to cancel your animation unless you don't want your attack to hit at that moment because it will mess up a last hit.

 

[crownjules]

Blitzcrank is not a bad jungle. The only problem is his lack of sustain. Maybe if you carry LS or HP/5 quints for his jungle that would make up for it until you get a Wriggle's. But his ganks are really good, between a MVSP/ASPD boost, knockup, and grab. Just played against a Tristana who I grabbed mid rocket jump a few times because it's easy to predict people's movement when they're desperately trying to retreat from you.

 

[Malak]

So I decided to review some tribunal cases... WOW I don't know if I ever want to play ranked. Some horrible horrible looking games.

Never play ranked. It is a terrible, terrible place.

 

[CPA]

Blitzcrank is not a bad jungle. The only problem is his lack of sustain. Maybe if you carry LS or HP/5 quints for his jungle that would make up for it until you get a Wriggle's. But his ganks are really good, between a MVSP/ASPD boost, knockup, and grab. Just played against a Tristana who I grabbed mid rocket jump a few times because it's easy to predict people's movement when they're desperately trying to retreat from you.

I haven't played a lot (level 8) but I really like Blitzcrank. That said, I have only jungled with him when I get mid-levels. Grabbing folks when they're trying to run away is so satisfying.

 

[RPD]

I haven't played a lot (level 8) but I really like Blitzcrank. That said, I have only jungled with him when I get mid-levels. Grabbing folks when they're trying to run away is so satisfying.

At low levels, a dual lane of Blitz and Alastair is hilarious

 

[Fenixgoon]

At low levels, a dual lane of Blitz and Alastair is hilarious

grab, knockup, headbutt into tower, ground pound?

sounds like insta-death to me

 

[CPA]

grab, knockup, headbutt into tower, ground pound?

sounds like insta-death to me

yep, I just played with this exact lane setup. We killed the first 3, then we split up with a call to help the mid. I went and then got stuck doing mid most of the game. It was fun working with Alistair for that little bit.

 

[Abel007]

Lanewick is fast becoming my favorite champ in ranked. The biggest hurdle is to get my teammates on board with the idea. It seems nobody ever thinks outside the box, but Lanewick can mid or top with the best of them for sustain. I just went mid vs a Malz and he couldn't do ANY damage to me. I would just heal through it. Picked up a Wit's End for good measure and he was pretty much ignored while I farmed the creeps. If he came close I would Q him for good measure.

 

[HumblePie]

Lanewick is fast becoming my favorite champ in ranked. The biggest hurdle is to get my teammates on board with the idea. It seems nobody ever thinks outside the box, but Lanewick can mid or top with the best of them for sustain. I just went mid vs a Malz and he couldn't do ANY damage to me. I would just heal through it. Picked up a Wit's End for good measure and he was pretty much ignored while I farmed the creeps. If he came close I would Q him for good measure.

See all my previous posts about lanewick.

 

[Abel007]

Yea, reading your posts and watching Guardsman Bob play him, I've learned a lot. GBob absolutely loves lanewick.

 

[Malak]

Lanewick is fast becoming my favorite champ in ranked. The biggest hurdle is to get my teammates on board with the idea. It seems nobody ever thinks outside the box, but Lanewick can mid or top with the best of them for sustain. I just went mid vs a Malz and he couldn't do ANY damage to me. I would just heal through it. Picked up a Wit's End for good measure and he was pretty much ignored while I farmed the creeps. If he came close I would Q him for good measure.

Yeah the best champs to lane against a Malz is anything that heals.

 

[xSkyDrAx]

Lanewick is great. It's really the only place for him now since he's a really bad pick in the jungle now. Had someone pick WW for jungle for a ranked game and I didn't even notice. I was offering to jungle too but he said he would. I glance WW i was like okay w/e but by the time the game started I was like god damn it should have traded him top instead. It was not a good game.