League of Legends - F2P MOBA (like DOTA) part 2

[douglasb]

It would be too easy to abuse though. You could just ban all the good players in the game and get a high ELO.

I don't think you understand...he meant ban them from playing with him. Not from playing at all.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Sometimes the AD/non support works, but it's iffy.

Do you want to know why? Lack of protection for the carry from a jungler is one reason. A good jungler will camp bot lane if they don't have a support, or should. This You end up getting early massive bot lane brawls going on too often and both sides are going to die. The difference is the ability to protect your late game carry. The side with the support is going to have an easier time if the support player is good than a team with aggressive players.

The AD/support combo bottom works with the following scenarios.

1) Your opponents are dumb and you get fed off early kills in bot lane
2) You get lucky and get a kill or two bot lane.
3) No lanes are losing so the game starts going to mid to late game with people more farmed from CS than from kills. Which means teams are roughly even and then the team with the better team comp and scaling carries is more likely to win.

There are 3 scenarios of why you want to go the AD/support bot lane meta.

The reason to go without that combo is because you aren't counting on late game. You are trying to push for a massive lead into late game or an early game victory. You go with an aggressive non support setup bot lane because:

1) You expect to win the lane early and take the tower early.
2) Most of the team are bruisers and need to gain a nice lead in levels and items from early pushing and deny of CS to the to other team.
3) You don't care about late game or team comps so long as you can crush the other team fast.



Here is the difference between the two. With the AD/support setup you can FORCE the enemy team to play to your playstyle if you want. With the other way you can not force the other team to engage quickly and die early if they decide to turtle and farm only early on. There are several high elo tournament teams that have tried your suggestion Impulse thinking the same thing. They usually get crushed. MiG was about the only team to get anywhere in a tournament and still they were crushed by CLG drawing them out to a longer game than they wanted to.

The reason for the AD/support combo is that it isn't counter-able. You have to wait for them to make a mistake to capitalize upon. The other way is being aggressive early which tends to lead to more mistakes.

I understand that reasoning and it goes in line with my thought that the higher ELO you get the tougher the strategy would be. However, there is a big difference in workable strategies and possibilities when talking about pre-made teams that are accustomed to playing with each other and solo queue of random people.

While you would assume the normal meta should typcially work the same in either mode, in premades you at least have some confidence that your teammates are competent and additionally (in tourneys) they are on voice chat and have played together often and know how each other plays.

In higher ELO you at least assume that your teammates know what they are doing, however planned strategies are on the fly and not always understood by pings and many times, you don't have time to type.

Basically, I guess I'm saying the combo strategy is much more viable in a solo queue than a premade team. Telling 4 other random people to turtle the entire game doesn't always work. I know for one, I'm not that patient

 

[RPD]

..so that means if I don't play, I am the best!

Or because you've banned everyone your ELO never improves...

Edit - And to add, the ban should be so they are never on your team. I could care less if the other team lands with a troll.

 

[ImpulsE69]

It would never work that way. You couldn't even ban people only from playing on your team because then you could just ban everyone under a certain ELO. I would LOVE the option to ban from ever having to be on a team with specific people, but in reality it would just be abused to fix the matches to your favor.

 

[Firsttime]

I don't think you understand...he meant ban them from playing with him. Not from playing at all.

He understood. High elo people could ban all the other high elo people and only play against low elo people. Use that to rise in elo.

On a totally unrelated note. I'm convinced that battle taric could work in a semi real way. Snag just enough farm to get Gunblade+DFG and then with the proper team run around 1 shotting everything. I will find a way to make it work.

 

[HumblePie]

Didn't get to play until late last night. Got on and had 2 really bad games in a row. First game I finally got to play Ahri. I was against a Veigar and literally owning him early to mid game. I went and started ganking side lanes. Our team was up on kills 26 to 17. I had taken down 4 towers, had 3 dragon kills, and were massively manhandling them. So what went wrong? Well First off, our Garen top was feeding akali. It was 30 minutes and 10 of those 12 deaths belonged to Garen top. I had zero deaths, but the rest of the team had a few.

Our janna gets an oracle and scopes out baron. No wards. We were in lane and saw them go back and split off into lanes. I'm typing everyone to baron! So we head to baron and take it. The other team didn't have a clue. So here we are, almost all full life, massively over their level, except Garen, with way more gold and baron buff. What would you normally do in this instance? You would push. So I type lets get middle real fast and the last tower in front of the inhib while the other team is showing up on mini map in other lanes. Everyone starts to head there. As soon as we get there Garen goes in.... and shaco and sivir take off for side lanes. Other team instant runs back, nails Garen, Janna and myself. Sivir rushes back to lane and dies. Shaco stays in side lane trying to push through the only lane that had a tower left that wasn't the last one before the inhib. Their team ignores him. The only towers we had lost were mid towers.


So what happens? They push down middle. Take second tower. Start working on tower in front of inhib. Shaco finally takes second tower in bot lane. Garen comes up first since he died first. Of course runs right in to the other team taking tower on inhib and promptly dies. Janna and I come back. I am pinging for shaco to get back. Janna and I have no chance against 5 of them, and not against that veigar if he gets his ult off me with my 600+ AP at that point. They take down inhib when sivir pops back up and rushes right at them. Janna and I follow. Both sivir and janna die. I follow and try to get away but insta pop by Veigar. Shaco still working on that tower. They port back and kill shaco. So now we have to deal with super minions and now a very fed veigar, Akali, and a pretty fed Caitlyn. Akali had been feeding off garen top all game. It just went down from there. Never could get shaco or sivir to participate in a team fight. They just wanted to split push and got caught every time. With super gung ho Garen always trying to go in despite 5v3 odds, we were doomed at that point.


So NikolaeV messages me after game to do a ranked duo. I said no, just normal because at that late hour it almost always turns out bad. He invites me and I didn't notice the invite was for ranked. He starts game soon as I accept invite and we insta queue for champ select. He said he miss clicked, and I've done it before so oh well. I was tempted, VERY tempted at that point to just dodge the queue. Why? I had a massive suspicion that we were going to lose in a very bad way. I should have dodged the queue and saved myself the time and aggravation that was about to come. Especially when I was being called noob for my bans by the eventual troll that picked Akali on our team for top. At champ select he was already cussing and talking shit to team mates. In my experience, things never go good after that.

Now I'm not trying to knock NikolaeV, but he was playing a bit herky jerky in his playstyle. He said it was too cold where he was for his fingers to respond. Going to say this, if you cant afford heat, you might not want to be paying a big electricity bill for running your computer until you can So we start the game and within 3 minutes their Vayne disconnects. I'm playing Sona, and NikolaeV is playing Kog on bot. We have a Rammus in the jungle, Brand in mid, and Akali top. We are against a Taric bottom. Vayne was bottom until the DC. Gangplank was in jungle but went bottom to cover for rest of game. Ahri was mid. For the life of me I can't remember who the other team had top. It really didn't matter though.

So what happened? By the 25 minute mark our Akali was 0/7/0. Our brand was 2/6/1. Our Rammus was 0/5/2. I was 0/0/1 although I did die eventually once at the very end to be 0/1/1. Can't remember what Nik went, but it wasn't all that good. Akali kept blaming her deaths on being ganked. First off, Akali has smokescreen and is basically un-gankable by 1 extra person if the Akali player is halfway decent. Second, they had no jungle to gank with since it they lost Vayne with in the first few minutes and gangplank, their jungle, came to bottom lane to cover. She was straight up losing 1v1 constantly. Since I was paying attention to bottom more and only looking at the mini map, I wasn't quite sure if it wasn't intentional feeding. Even still, I would warn through typing it out and pings when someone was leaving their lane, like Ahri, to come help kill a side lane. It didn't matter. Brand and akali would stay where they were and get crushed. Heck even Nik was doing that and I was talking to him on Vent to let him know when people were coming to kill him. He still got caught twice before he started responding a bit faster. Didn't matter. They got their Vayne back by the 25 minute mark and we just lost our inhib. Finally got the team to surrender. Yes, we lost a 4v5 matchup. I was pissed because I was stuck playing support. Support can't carry games at all. Especially if team mates are willfully trying to lose.

So I finished up with a co-op game to get my WOTD bonus. Even there is was a close game cause I had a Nasus and Sion feeding the bots like crazy. Both had over 20 deaths in that co-op game. Luckily I was playing Ahri and bots are dumb enough and predictable enough for me to pull out a win.

 

[ImpulsE69]

All my games but 1 yesterday were horrible on a personal and team level. It didn't matter who I played as I just would miss ganks, skill shots, get lost in the chaos etc. Blah. It's times like these when I should just play something else, but I end up playing another to try to redeem myself lol.

 

[xSkyDrAx]

Didn't get to play until late last night. Got on and had 2 really bad games in a row. First game I finally got to play Ahri. I was against a Veigar and literally owning him early to mid game. I went and started ganking side lanes. Our team was up on kills 26 to 17. I had taken down 4 towers, had 3 dragon kills, and were massively manhandling them. So what went wrong? Well First off, our Garen top was feeding akali. It was 30 minutes and 10 of those 12 deaths belonged to Garen top. I had zero deaths, but the rest of the team had a few.

Our janna gets an oracle and scopes out baron. No wards. We were in lane and saw them go back and split off into lanes. I'm typing everyone to baron! So we head to baron and take it. The other team didn't have a clue. So here we are, almost all full life, massively over their level, except Garen, with way more gold and baron buff. What would you normally do in this instance? You would push. So I type lets get middle real fast and the last tower in front of the inhib while the other team is showing up on mini map in other lanes. Everyone starts to head there. As soon as we get there Garen goes in.... and shaco and sivir take off for side lanes. Other team instant runs back, nails Garen, Janna and myself. Sivir rushes back to lane and dies. Shaco stays in side lane trying to push through the only lane that had a tower left that wasn't the last one before the inhib. Their team ignores him. The only towers we had lost were mid towers.


So what happens? They push down middle. Take second tower. Start working on tower in front of inhib. Shaco finally takes second tower in bot lane. Garen comes up first since he died first. Of course runs right in to the other team taking tower on inhib and promptly dies. Janna and I come back. I am pinging for shaco to get back. Janna and I have no chance against 5 of them, and not against that veigar if he gets his ult off me with my 600+ AP at that point. They take down inhib when sivir pops back up and rushes right at them. Janna and I follow. Both sivir and janna die. I follow and try to get away but insta pop by Veigar. Shaco still working on that tower. They port back and kill shaco. So now we have to deal with super minions and now a very fed veigar, Akali, and a pretty fed Caitlyn. Akali had been feeding off garen top all game. It just went down from there. Never could get shaco or sivir to participate in a team fight. They just wanted to split push and got caught every time. With super gung ho Garen always trying to go in despite 5v3 odds, we were doomed at that point.


So NikolaeV messages me after game to do a ranked duo. I said no, just normal because at that late hour it almost always turns out bad. He invites me and I didn't notice the invite was for ranked. He starts game soon as I accept invite and we insta queue for champ select. He said he miss clicked, and I've done it before so oh well. I was tempted, VERY tempted at that point to just dodge the queue. Why? I had a massive suspicion that we were going to lose in a very bad way. I should have dodged the queue and saved myself the time and aggravation that was about to come. Especially when I was being called noob for my bans by the eventual troll that picked Akali on our team for top. At champ select he was already cussing and talking shit to team mates. In my experience, things never go good after that.

Now I'm not trying to knock NikolaeV, but he was playing a bit herky jerky in his playstyle. He said it was too cold where he was for his fingers to respond. Going to say this, if you cant afford heat, you might not want to be paying a big electricity bill for running your computer until you can So we start the game and within 3 minutes their Vayne disconnects. I'm playing Sona, and NikolaeV is playing Kog on bot. We have a Rammus in the jungle, Brand in mid, and Akali top. We are against a Taric bottom. Vayne was bottom until the DC. Gangplank was in jungle but went bottom to cover for rest of game. Ahri was mid. For the life of me I can't remember who the other team had top. It really didn't matter though.

So what happened? By the 25 minute mark our Akali was 0/7/0. Our brand was 2/6/1. Our Rammus was 0/5/2. I was 0/0/1 although I did die eventually once at the very end to be 0/1/1. Can't remember what Nik went, but it wasn't all that good. Akali kept blaming her deaths on being ganked. First off, Akali has smokescreen and is basically un-gankable by 1 extra person if the Akali player is halfway decent. Second, they had no jungle to gank with since it they lost Vayne with in the first few minutes and gangplank, their jungle, came to bottom lane to cover. She was straight up losing 1v1 constantly. Since I was paying attention to bottom more and only looking at the mini map, I wasn't quite sure if it wasn't intentional feeding. Even still, I would warn through typing it out and pings when someone was leaving their lane, like Ahri, to come help kill a side lane. It didn't matter. Brand and akali would stay where they were and get crushed. Heck even Nik was doing that and I was talking to him on Vent to let him know when people were coming to kill him. He still got caught twice before he started responding a bit faster. Didn't matter. They got their Vayne back by the 25 minute mark and we just lost our inhib. Finally got the team to surrender. Yes, we lost a 4v5 matchup. I was pissed because I was stuck playing support. Support can't carry games at all. Especially if team mates are willfully trying to lose.

So I finished up with a co-op game to get my WOTD bonus. Even there is was a close game cause I had a Nasus and Sion feeding the bots like crazy. Both had over 20 deaths in that co-op game. Luckily I was playing Ahri and bots are dumb enough and predictable enough for me to pull out a win.

That's why you play easy bots for a quick no nonsense fwotd

 

[xSkyDrAx]

Started playing trundle recently. Love him! He's such a boss. Walks into jungle with vamp scepter. Comes out full HP. Not nearly as mana intensive as udyr and has shit tons of utility and pretty good dmg.

I also recently figured out that he was the only champ to have no changes since release which is pretty interesting.

I'm guessing the only reason he isnt god tier jungler is that he does have AOE clearing abilities.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Yeah Terrible, I was playing pretty shittily yesterday. I ended up with 0/3/1. I only had one death during the laning phase due to the slight overpush, but other than that, I managed to escape those other 2 ganks just fine.

The additional 2 deaths came from those "team fights" which were just us getting torn apart and getting insta killed by that 7/1 Ahri. Good god that flashing ult is so fucking annoying.

At that point they had gotten tank items while I hadn't even finished my infinity edge and I had simply no way of killing characters with so many free flashes and tankiness and fedness.

 

[zebano]

Started playing trundle recently. Love him! He's such a boss. Walks into jungle with vamp scepter. Comes out full HP. Not nearly as mana intensive as udyr and has shit tons of utility and pretty good dmg.

I also recently figured out that he was the only champ to have no changes since release which is pretty interesting.

I'm guessing the only reason he isnt god tier jungler is that he does have AOE clearing abilities.

Shhhhh

-SSoTP

 

[HumblePie]

Started playing trundle recently. Love him! He's such a boss. Walks into jungle with vamp scepter. Comes out full HP. Not nearly as mana intensive as udyr and has shit tons of utility and pretty good dmg.

I also recently figured out that he was the only champ to have no changes since release which is pretty interesting.

I'm guessing the only reason he isnt god tier jungler is that he does have AOE clearing abilities.

He's not considered the best jungler because...

1) No AoE clearing abilities.
2) Ganks are reliant upon good placement of pillar which is not foolproof like a stun or a root.
3) No gap closer as a melee.
4) DPS is okay, but not that significant as he tends to be more tanky than dps from his skill set.


So he has no AoE and no hard CC. He has a slow and a wall that forces people to walk around, but they can easily flash through it. Also people that constantly randomly move around while in lane make placing that pillar to gank that much harder to do so well. So while he's good, he's just not the best jungler.

So who are considered the best junglers right now? In no particular order...

Maokai
Shaco
Xin Zhao
Urgot
Lee Sin
Udyr
Rammus
Renekton


Out of all the junglers they are the best. None of them are perfect, but their strengths in a certain aspect make up for a weakness in another area. I'll break down a few to show what I mean.

Maokai. AoE clear ability. Quite tanky. Dps is a bit subpar over all. Still he has a gap closer, Root, and a knockback. Which means he can clear a jungle fast and get in good ganks due to his CC. What he lacks in DPS he hopes the person whos lane he is ganking for can make up for that. Lacks sustain and dps as weaknesses.

Shaco. Semi AoE clear with JITB. Great DPS. Godly ganks with stealth to come up undetected, gap closer, JITB for CC, and slows from 2 shiv poison. Lacks sustain and is a bit squishy as weaknesses.

Xin Zhao. Massive jungle sustain with passive. Semi AoE clearing ability with charge, but really 3 talon strike as a single target DPS early game is massive. Has a gap closer and knockup and a slow. Lacks high damage AoE or at least spammable AoE damage to clear spawns as a weakness.

Urgot. AoE damage. High single target DPS. Can pepper people standing at tower if grenade hits first. Ult is just massively awesome tool for ganking. Good sustain and shield as well. Weakness is his ult can put him into danger without realizing it and he's some what skill shot based. Otherwise high elo players are starting to think Urgot is the absolute best jungler out there.

Lee Sin. Great sustain. Great DPS in both aoe and single target. Gap closer. Escape mechanism. Slow and a knockback. All around one of the best junglers out there. Oh and he's fairly tanky. His weakness is being skillshot based.

Udyr. AoE clearing. Speed boost. Good sustain and shield. Quick cycling stun. tanky. Good dps with both single target and AoE. Shield allows him to tower dive a bit earlier than others to make sure he gets the kill. Weaknesses is no real gap closer or distance CC so ganks have a chance to get away if they aren't pushed up too far.

Rammus. AoE clearing with DCB and later tremors. High armor for safe jungling. Speed from Powerball to get to spawns. Speed from power ball to get to ganks easier with a slight knockback. Nice long single target taunt with okay range to use it. Weaknesses are lack of single target DPS, fairly mana intensive, and his powerball for ganks takes practice to use right and not run into minions by accident.

Renekton. AoE clearing. Stun. Sustain. Gap closer. Quite tanky. His weakness is he lacks a little bit in the dps department and his Gap closer is a little clunky as a double small dash.


Pretty much ANY champ right now can clear the jungle on their own. Heck I've cleared it with soraka jungling before Basically what you look for in a good jungler are these aspects.

Clearing speed with AoE or fast recycling high dps single target abilities.
Sustain or tankiness for safe jungling.
Gap closer for ganks.
At least one if not more than one form of CC with one being a hard CC. (Hard CC is a root, knockup, or stun. Something that causes the target player to lose control of his champs actions for a given period of time).


These are qualities for JUNGLER. Not exactly for the best champ for a given team comp. Late game a jungler is just another player in the team fight and some champs are better suited for team fights than others depending upon the team comp. Which is why other junglers besides the ones listed above are picked fairly often as well. Still, none on the list I posted above is horrible in team fights at all.

 

[HumblePie]

Note my list I said the BEST. Not just damn good. For example skarner is not on my list. He's a DAMN good jungler but he has one weakness as a jungler that is hard to overcome. Lack of a good gap closer and sucky pre-level 6 ganks. In that respect he's like Warwick. Only difference is that he's at least faster at clearing the jungle than warwick is. That and he can at least keep slowed that manage to survive his ult gank unlike warwick.

 

[Firsttime]

I play a fair amount and I don't think I've ever seen an Urgot or a Renekton jungle. Xin is also not considered a top tier jungle because of his over reliance on farm.

Also you left Nocturn, Skarner, Gangplank, and Malphite off that list. They are all super popular junglers. Even Karthus sees top level play in the jungle.

Trundle is a top tier jungle. You just have to comp around him. Pillar is an insane denitiate. You will still see Trundle used in a lot of poke based comps. With Nidalees, TFs, Caits, Urgots. That kinda stuff.

 

[HumblePie]

I play a fair amount and I don't think I've ever seen an Urgot or a Renekton jungle. Xin is also not considered a top tier jungle because of his over reliance on farm.

Also you left Nocturn, Skarner, Gangplank, and Malphite off that list. They are all super popular junglers. Even Karthus sees top level play in the jungle.

Trundle is a top tier jungle. You just have to comp around him. Pillar is an insane denitiate. You will still see Trundle used in a lot of poke based comps. With Nidalees, TFs, Caits, Urgots. That kinda stuff.

Nocturn has no gap closer until level 6. His CC is unreliable as people can flash away from it. His AoE clearing is based on his passive which is based off a timer so his jungling speed is not top notch.

Skarner has no CC pre level 6 except a slow which requires melee range and two hits of his Q to apply. He has no gap closer. He has great jungling speed, but his early ganks suck against smart players.

Gangplank has no AoE clearing. His jungling speed is a bit slow. He has no gap closer and no hard CC at all. I love GP, oh yes I do, but even I know he's not the best jungler. He does have a ranged applied slow which applies both his passive and red buff slow stacked together. That is his only saving grace that allows even an okay early gank percentage chance to be successful. Still it requires the other team to be pushed up fairly far and/or fairly low on health. His jungle speed does increase over time though dramatically with increased levels of E for run speed and bonus AD. In a team fight GP is great as well. He has his place, but he's not top tier as a jungler.

Malphite also suffers from all that. No gap closer until level 6. Hard CC tied in with gap closer at level 6. Has crappy single target damage. Falls off late game.

Karthus has no gap closer. Squishy as hell. No sustain. No hard CC. He can clear a jungle FAST that is for sure and has decent DPS. His ult also doesn't require him to be anywhere near his targets. Still he's not a good jungler because of his many weaknesses from lack of ganking tools, and has a lower chance at a successful gank than those on my list.



As far as Urgot and Renekton. You have seen Saint Vicious and others in high elo playing them lately have you? As I said, I've been watching the streams and even they were surprised by how well Urgot does in the jungle. His problem is he's NOT a true AD carry although he can pump out plenty of AD damage. Also his ult in late game team fights requires team mates to know what they are doing. Funny thing is his ult STOPS flashes. How? It has a slight cast animation delay. So if urgot walks up and starts his ult just as the person flashes then they flash but the animation completes. They are lockdown for the suppression and pulled back right to the spot urgot was standing and urgot goes to the spot they were before they flashed. It's funny to see when it happens and the QQing that occurs when it does is funny as hell too.

But yah, those champs I listed are right now considered the absolute best junglers. They have good jungle clearing. Good sustain or safe jungling abilities. Good pre-level 6 ganks. High percentage chance of a successful gank at any level. Gap closers. Hard CC. They have all the tools needed to be the best junglers.


A list of GOOD junglers, but not the best would include GP, skarner, amumu, malphite, and nocturne. They are still damn good and fine jungler. They just aren't the "best" because of skill set. Remember jungling is really only from levels 1-12. It's an early to mid game thing. Past that it's late game and usually langing/junging phase is over. At which point it comes down to team comps and team fight strategies unless one team is massively fed over the other team.

 

[crownjules]

Malphite definitely qualifies as a good jungler right now. A gap closer is not as important when you have a ranged CC ability (plus red buff). And then when he hits 6 you're not escaping a gank when he will Q, R and then Q you again if you're still not dead. He also has plenty of AOE because W gives him a passive cleave and his E is AOE too. And between his passive and W's active, he has a pretty safe jungle and can deal with invasion fairly well.

 

[Firsttime]

I know Saint can jungle Heimer and win games. That doesn't make it work for the average person.

Also, you can hate on jungle karthus all you want. It didn't stop Linak from playing it against USA at WCG this year though though. His gank netted FB. They lost the game, but just pulling that out in a semi final game at the biggest tourney since Dreamhack shows that there are some pretty decent people at this game that think it's pretty viable. I can't remember the last jungle Xin/Urgot/Renek I saw at a major tourney.

Skarner is one of the 3 best jungles in the game, bans in any high elo game will confirm this. He is perma banned with Shaco and Rammus.

 

[HumblePie]

I know Saint can jungle Heimer and win games. That doesn't make it work for the average person.

Also, you can hate on jungle karthus all you want. It didn't stop Linak from playing it against USA at WCG this year though though. His gank netted FB. They lost the game, but just pulling that out in a semi final game at the biggest tourney since Dreamhack shows that there are some pretty decent people at this game that think it's pretty viable. I can't remember the last jungle Xin/Urgot/Renek I saw at a major tourney.

Skarner is one of the 3 best jungles in the game, bans in any high elo game will confirm this. He is perma banned with Shaco and Rammus.

Dreamhack was how far back? I'm aware of saintvicious jungling and being successful with all sorts of champs. He does it to see if he can do it, and not because he think the champ is all that great. The list I posted above is HIS LIST as well. That is his list of the current absolute best junglers in the game. I also happen to agree with him on this list. There are plenty of others that agree with that list as well. However, saintviscious doesn't always like playing the "best" at a category either because he likes to play for fun too.

Again, you need to put champion bias aside and look at the champs objectively and their skill kits.

One more thing to point out, typically you don't want your hard CC tied into your gap closer as a jungler as in the case of malphite. Why? Because it doesn't give your lane a chance to react for a gank. It's better to use a gap closer, and then be able to use your hard CC afterwards. This allows people to move up while you are using your hard CC and then capitalize upon a target that is now being hard CC'd after the gap closer. Why? Most people in lane aren't standing right on top of their opponents when a gank is ready to occur. Nor should they be as that puts them in a dangerous position as well as possibly tipping off the potential target that a gank is incoming.

Yes malphite as a nice decent ranged attack with a slow. Still it's not going to contribute pre-level 6 to a high percentage successful gank against a semi-competent player. The slow is not THAT much unless you level up the Q. If you level up the Q first then you aren't going through the jungle fast as malphite since his Q damage is low, on a very long cooldown, and slows mean nothing killing jungle creeps.

For reference, gank as a word means taking multiple people and ganging up on someone for a kill. Gank = Gang Kill. If you are just planning on doing a solo kill against an over pushed and low health target that's not a gank. That's just a easy surprise kill versus an idiot. A gank is against a player that isn't in any real danger from the opponents in their lane, but can be if the right person comes along to help get the kill.

ANY champ can get easy kills from idiot players. Against good players though you need a good jungle champ to have any chance of making an early gank kill from the jungle. There is the difference. Some champs are just much better suited to it.

 

[Firsttime]

WCG was last month. It was the biggest tourney since Dreamhack. As far as the amount of teams participating.

 

[HumblePie]

WCG was last month. It was the biggest tourney since Dreamhack. As far as the amount of teams participating.

I'm trying to point out that things change. Also your choice in jungler for a team is ALSO determined by how that jungler champ is going to be used late game for a given team comp. That is why ultimately it is IMPOSSIBLE to state which character is the number 1 best jungler in the game. There isn't one to take the crown. As such you can categorize champs into which are better in the jungle role early on, but that doesn't make them the best overall for a team. Which is why you see successful Karthus junglers and such.

The reason Skarner is banned for example is because he's still a good jungler. He's pre level 6 ganks are lacking, but he makes up for it with great ganks after level 6. Also he SCALES really well and does great damage while still being tanky. That and his AD damage by itself is high and does a decent amount of magic damage without many items to augment his AP. He's a great asset in late game team fights with both his damage, tankiness, and the utility that his ult provides. That is why Skarner is so popular in high elo games and thus why he is banned often. It's not solely because he is one of the best junglers, which he's not, but because overall he adds so much to a team. Good, if not the best, jungling and late game team fight utility. Do you see what I'm trying to point out here with my posts?

As far as PURE JUNGLE ROLE IS CONCERNED, not late game team fights, and not getting kills against idiots or incompetent players, that list is correct.

This is why Saintviscious and a few other high elo jungle players going into the next big tourny in Korea this month are practicing Urgot and Renekton jungles. Unless a new patch changes things, expect to see those two much more often.

 

[xSkyDrAx]

I will have to see this urgot jungle. Pre-6 wise I still dont see him have great ganks. At best he'll land his poison so he can harass like mad which will hopefully your lane mate an advantage. Post 6 is another thing but it brings in a bunch of other junglers with strong lvl 6 ganks.

Reneckton I've seen jungle and he does it pretty well just not that many people jungle with him. Aside from the recent changes in season 2 and the gradual change towards more offensive play Ren. has been in the shadows for the most part. Now he mainly takes top lane but I could see him in the jungle doing better.

As for Trundle I still see him as a high tier jungler (overall, not according to just in the jungle). While his wall is not a hard CC it's still very effective and if you can pull of a push to the wall it acts as a 1s stun. Also it's a nice long range (massive range) ability that will force people to burn their flash if they're not tower hugging and since it comes back in 20s vs 200+ for flash then it's fine by me.

He also transitions nicely into mid/late game as he gets beefy pretty easily and can get tanky from ulting opposing tank. Was watching an older stream from chaox today and he said something I didn't realize. His ult procs red buff on champs which is pretty interesting.

He has an AD debuff/self buff and a tank debuff/self buff. Irelia level tenacity with his contaiminate and endless utility with the wall. He's damn good in my book. Also like it that he's not picked/banned all the time.

 

[Snock514]

TSM vs. SK Scrim at 4pm est! Don't miss it!

 

[Firsttime]

TSM vs. SK Scrim at 4pm est! Don't miss it!

Oddone is runing for it right now, the first page he makes is for jungle karthus .

 

[HumblePie]

I will have to see this urgot jungle. Pre-6 wise I still dont see him have great ganks. At best he'll land his poison so he can harass like mad which will hopefully your lane mate an advantage. Post 6 is another thing but it brings in a bunch of other junglers with strong lvl 6 ganks.

Reneckton I've seen jungle and he does it pretty well just not that many people jungle with him. Aside from the recent changes in season 2 and the gradual change towards more offensive play Ren. has been in the shadows for the most part. Now he mainly takes top lane but I could see him in the jungle doing better.

As for Trundle I still see him as a high tier jungler (overall, not according to just in the jungle). While his wall is not a hard CC it's still very effective and if you can pull of a push to the wall it acts as a 1s stun. Also it's a nice long range (massive range) ability that will force people to burn their flash if they're not tower hugging and since it comes back in 20s vs 200+ for flash then it's fine by me.

He also transitions nicely into mid/late game as he gets beefy pretty easily and can get tanky from ulting opposing tank. Was watching an older stream from chaox today and he said something I didn't realize. His ult procs red buff on champs which is pretty interesting.

He has an AD debuff/self buff and a tank debuff/self buff. Irelia level tenacity with his contaiminate and endless utility with the wall. He's damn good in my book. Also like it that he's not picked/banned all the time.

Urgot Q does proc red buff but no item procs. He has a ranged grenade he can launch with a decent AoE area to hit a target. Pre-level 6 he gets into position under cover and launches. With terror shield + red buff he applies a massive double slow to targets every time his Q hits. He just continues to launch even as they run back to their tower. It's quite disgusting actually since the E grenade is doing poison damage and has taken a decent chunk of the armor as a percentage off. His Q will keep procing red buff for more dot damage, is an auto lock on so if they flash it doesn't matter, and will continue to proc slows from red buff and his terror shield if he activated his W before firing. He doesn't have a gap closer but then again he has very long range attacks and doesn't need the gap closer. If his Q didn't proc red buff then his viability as a jungler would drop way down.

 

[HumblePie]

I will have to see this urgot jungle. Pre-6 wise I still dont see him have great ganks. At best he'll land his poison so he can harass like mad which will hopefully your lane mate an advantage. Post 6 is another thing but it brings in a bunch of other junglers with strong lvl 6 ganks.

Reneckton I've seen jungle and he does it pretty well just not that many people jungle with him. Aside from the recent changes in season 2 and the gradual change towards more offensive play Ren. has been in the shadows for the most part. Now he mainly takes top lane but I could see him in the jungle doing better.

As for Trundle I still see him as a high tier jungler (overall, not according to just in the jungle). While his wall is not a hard CC it's still very effective and if you can pull of a push to the wall it acts as a 1s stun. Also it's a nice long range (massive range) ability that will force people to burn their flash if they're not tower hugging and since it comes back in 20s vs 200+ for flash then it's fine by me.

He also transitions nicely into mid/late game as he gets beefy pretty easily and can get tanky from ulting opposing tank. Was watching an older stream from chaox today and he said something I didn't realize. His ult procs red buff on champs which is pretty interesting.

He has an AD debuff/self buff and a tank debuff/self buff. Irelia level tenacity with his contaiminate and endless utility with the wall. He's damn good in my book. Also like it that he's not picked/banned all the time.

Yah but even Saint and other top elo player junglers say he's great in team fights, just not that great in the jungle. He's slow, no gap closer, and no hard CC. And requires perfect placement of his pillar for successful ganks which in turn require the target be lined up perfectly for the placement.