Lead follow or get out of the way.

[Lemon law]

So is titled the following OP ed by a prominent US Journalist regarding the US role in the Israeli Palestinian peace process. And suggests that the USA may be the big loser in the
the leaked "Palestinian papers."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20110127/cm_csm/359229

P&N already has some on going threads on how the winds of change are effecting various Arab nations from Tunisia and Eastward to at least Turkey. And certainly South through both
Iraq, Iran, and now even Yemen is a flame with anti-governmental riots that well could spread to Saudi Arabia.

This is deeply disturbing to me as an American as I watch one US President after another do nothing but stain the national reputation and high principles of the USA. It kind of reminds me of two Statements from the past.

1. The old FDR statement regarding what he told an aide regarding a particularly rotten South American dictator when questioned why the USA was supporting him. And the FDR answer was, the USA well knew he was a corrupt and rotten son of a bitch, but he was "our" son of a bitch. Our son of a bitch soon fell anyway, and the USA is not trusted there to this day.

2 And the Gandhi statement about Christians, to which Gandhi replied and maybe I don't have the exact words: I love the Ideas of Jesus Christ, but Christians certainly don't practice them.

But at the end of the day, I can see a day when the USA loses all influence in the mid-east. As even our total allies abandon us because they do not want to be tainted
by guilt by association. Its a sad thing to say as a Patriotic American, but someone has to say there is something very wrong and shortsighted in saying "I support my country right or wrong" when out foreign policy is on the total wrong track.

 

[Zebo]

I'll just leave this here as a patriotic American

JOHN QUINCY ADAMS
Address on U.S. Foreign Policy
July 4, 1821

AND NOW, FRIENDS AND COUNTRYMEN, if the wise and learned philosophers of the elder world, the first observers of nutation and aberration, the discoverers of maddening ether and invisible planets, the inventors of Congreve rockets and Shrapnel shells, should find their hearts disposed to enquire what has America done for the benefit of mankind?

Let our answer be this: America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity.

She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights.

She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own.

She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart.

She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right.

Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.

But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.

She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.

She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.

She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.

She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.

The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force....

She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....

[America's] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice.


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At the end of the day you can't avoid pissing someone off and corrupting your values when you mingle.

 

[EagleKeeper]

So a Palestinian is complaining that the US does not seem to be as pro-Palestinian as the Arab world would like.

Israel is not the US lapdog unlike the Palestinians who are the Arab's lapdog

 

[Lemon law]

So a Palestinian is complaining that the US does not seem to be as pro-Palestinian as the Arab world would like.

Israel is not the US lapdog unlike the Palestinians who are the Arab's lapdog

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Once again, Common Courtesy, you look at the world from only pro-Israeli eyes. If you read the whole piece, you might see that the author is not just talking about the singular Palestinian Israeli issues, but the larger mid-east issues that have zero to do with Israel. The revolution in Tunisia that has now spread to Egypt, concerns internal government corruption and has nothing to do with Israel. IMHO, the changes in Turkey have a lot to do with America's incompetent bull in a China shop invasion of Iraq in 2003. And now Turkey has legitimate concerns about PPK insurgent activities on its South-eastern borders. And has to mobilize a good part of its army keeping the PPK at bay while the Iraqi and the powers that be do nothing. And Condi Rice and now Hillary Clinton poo poo any Turkish diplomatic efforts to defuse various problems to prevent their region of the world catching on fire because it will spread to Turkey and everywhere else in the region next.

Should I, as a US citizen say, hee hee hee, oh what fun to light fires half way around the world, because the same fire will not touch me in America. But wait, it does touch me because you and I pay in different currency, namely US blood and treasure, and even the future of America and its bundling foreign policy. Did it work in Vietnam? That is a no. Is it working in Iran and Afghanistan, my guess is those two will both end up being bigger and more costly blunders than Vietnam. As for even our American allies and the international community, its likely that the USA will soon learn, we will be told, in no uncertain terms, our track record is so bad that we have no diplomatic credibility anywhere. And our input or influence is simply not welcome.

The USA cannot pretend to be the leaders of the free world if we have no followers. Who in their right mind wants to follow a bungling arsonist.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The contents of the documents and the reaction to them among Palestinians and in the wider Arab world show that the United States is, to put it mildly, actually rather incompetent at evaluating its own credibility among those it seeks to influence. It is completely out of touch with the grim realities it has helped create in the region and unprepared to deal with the consequences.

Only a bold policy shift could salvage a positive US role in the Middle East peace process. Otherwise, the US must stand back and allow the popular movements now shaking countries across the region to establish representation and freedom for their people.

The author does not like the way the US is handling things. Wants a "bold shift" if the US is to lead.

He is stating that the US must either go where the Arabs want or accept that the other Arab countries will go where they want.

Seems very demanding to me that the US policy should be the Arab way or no way.
Lines up with the title of the article.

Failed US policies, role in Middle East The initial picture that emerges from the documents is of unbridgeable gaps between an increasingly intransigent, ultranationalist, land-grabbing Israel, and a Palestinian leadership that has offered all it can in concessions and capitulations, despite its utter lack of legitimacy among the people it purports to represent. “The only thing I cannot do is convert to Zionism,” said Mr. Erekat in 2008 after a Palestinian team presented plans and maps to then Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni conceding virtually all the Israeli settlements in and around Jerusalem, the rights of refugees, and the right to a state with full sovereignty.

It is because of the lack of legitimacy, the Palestinian leadership refused to continue the talks. They had to save face and knew that they were unable to deliver anything agreed on.

this explains why Abbas refused to show up for the first 8 months. Then he through such a fuss afterwords and has refused to go back. He is unable to deliver and must save face by not promising anything.

At least Hamas is honest in their actions with Israel. Expressed hatred and no negotiations.

This top-down usurpation of the right of the Palestinian people to freely choose their own leaders was matched by a bottom-up effort led by US Army Lt. General Keith Dayton to build Palestinian security services that Dayton knew engaged in torture. In fact, Mr. Dayton told Erekat how pleased the Israelis were with Palestinian intelligence services: “They say they are giving as much as they are taking from them – but they are causing some problems for international donors because they are torturing people.”

Was the US teaching the forces how to torture???
The Arabs have demonstrated it very well and taught it to the Palestinians.
Torture training apparently is well taught and must work - people are complaining about that quality of training. :hmm:

Because people do not like the way the authorities act with the result of our training, the US is getting blamed for what the Muslims learn own their own

It is possible, however, to imagine a dynamic new US approach: ending unconditional aid and diplomatic support for Israel, allowing Palestinians to democratically choose a consensus leadership

Sound like he is demanding that the US do it his way.
The Palestinians have chosen a leadership - Hamas.
However, Hamas has stated their intentions, shown their colors and it is not inline with what the US interests are. Nor do they seem to align with the world.

So it is up to the Palestinians in what they want to do - continue to be enslaved by their own actions or develop a leadership that can function within the world body and resolve the Israeli?Palestinian conflict?

Many of us on this board have been stating that it is up to the Palestinians to straighten out their act and move forward.

Die hard Palestinians supporters/agents here have stated that it is Israel's fault.

This article and the papers have aptly demonstrated that w/ respect to Israel, it is not the US that can make the breakthrough. The Palestinians have to work among themselves to present a united front that is willing to have a breakthrough. Blaming Israel for their incompetence has been exposed as a fallacy.

The "papers" and this Palestinian journalist have demonstrated that the Arabs expect the US to follow in their footsteps according to the Arab desires. It is not going to happen.


With respect to the rest of the world, the US should be willing to get out of the way. Let them choose their path and be willing to lend a hand if/when it is again asked. But with our conditions. Unilateral/unconditional help jsut leads to resentment of the US. so if our help is needed; we will ahve to benefit in one form or another.

 

[nick1985]

LL, do you have some pro-Hamas glasses I can borrow?

 

[Lemon law]

LL, do you have some pro-Hamas glasses I can borrow?

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As a matter of fact I have pro-everyone glasses in abundance. And as a chess player I can take them off and on as I play all sides of the board. Its sometimes called having an open mind, Sometimes its called walking an inch or a mile in someone Else's shoes.

But I doubt they would do you much good, because you are incapable of understanding anything you would see beyond your own limited viewpoint rose colored glasses.

But even if you and Common Courtesy fail to understand the questions raised in the Op ed go well beyond just Palestinian Israeli issues, and involve large issues of US credibility and both the far larger mid east and the rest of the world. But maybe dim wits like you can at least understand, that as the USA and its misguided foreign policy loses credibility and more importantly influence all over the world, it will end up being very very bad news for Israel.

Pardon me, as an American citizen, I am far more concerned about preventing stupid American foreign policy from flushing our American future down the toilet all over the world. In 1960, the praise sound as a dollar meant something really positive, in 2011, it means you are on death's door.

In a world of close to 6 billion people, the issues of 7 million Israelis and 3 million Palestinians don't amount to more than a small pimple. When the larger issue is American credibility and world influence in a new century and larger future.

Sorry to disturb your happy meal Nick 1985, so please put back on your pro-Israeli glasses,
until you get the bad news, your blind. We shall hopefully have enough cash left to buy you a white cane on the taxpayers dime. I am not sure if we will have enough for Common Courtesy too, so you may have to share a cane.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Does credibility mean following the latest fad?
A government comes into power where there is none. Should we support that government even if it does not follow our ideals.

There is the dilemma.

There can be a government that is backed by the people that follows our ideals - "GOOD"
and if the people object then what? - government is now BAD?
What if the end goal of the people goes against what we believe/work for? Should the new government still be accepted? Do we accept it and then work behind the scenes to replace it? do we whole heartly support an unfriendly government? Do we support a government that may attack us or our allies? do we support a government that has factions that work against us?

Pulling supports for governments can turn an area into choas and create an hostile area - what happens then?