Lawmakers Seek Ban on Flavored Cigarettes

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torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
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Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: torpid
Both are true. Libertarianism has a good foundation, but at some point you have to realize that not every personal, social, and economic system can operate completely free of checks and balances without humans finding a way to totally screw others over while making a profit and never being held accountable.
Whoever said that Libertarianism advocated a governmental system free of checks and balances? :confused:

I'm sure they will claim that they don't, it's just that the ones they advocate are often more theoretical than realistic. Like the theory that many libertarians seem to have that we can operate without regulated markets in some industries because whistleblowers and the press will keep companies in check.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: Crazyfool
People should be free to breathe clean air when in public. There shouldn't be a right to burn things and disregard others.

Smokers for the most part are a selfish bunch. Looking at all the cigarette butts on the beach underscores this fact. The whole world is an ashtray to them. :thumbsdown:
Do you ever drive or ride in an exhaust-spewing car? Yeah, gas-burning cars have no environmental effect. :roll: Fsckin' hypocrite.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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Originally posted by: torpid
I'm sure they will claim that they don't, it's just that the ones they advocate are often more theoretical than realistic. Like the theory that many libertarians seem to have that we can operate without regulated markets in some industries because whistleblowers and the press will keep companies in check.
In most industries, government regulation is just an expensive unnecessary bureaucracy designed to subsidize the existing companies already in the industry and keep new competition out. So what you said is partially correct.
However, Libertarianism is not what most people think it is. Libertarianism is the ultimate and most common sense form of eye for eye tooth for tooth with the least amount of government. Crime is essentially defined as ANY measurable harm done under non-consenting circumstances. So (for example) if someone smokes for 40 years and dies of lung cancer, then that smoker could not sue because everyone knows that smoking is harmful and so no claim could be made that the smoker was not aware of the danger or did not consent to it. Thus, all are free to smoke as they wish. Harm yourself, it's your body and your life.
OTOH, if any individual or company pollutes other peoples' property (aka the "environment") without their consent in a way that cause measurable harm, then under Libertarianism they would pay to the absolute fullest extent necessary to remedy the damages.

These analogies could be translated into almost any circumstances. It is simple common sense government. Quite unlike the Puritarian moral-elitist screw-your-neighbor nanny-state bullsh!t we have now.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
Originally posted by: ChaoZ
Originally posted by: Crazyfool
I think they should just outlaw the sales of all cigarettes.

:beer:
Wow...just wow.

I hope my sarcasm meter is just broken.
The real irony is the :beer: emoticon.

From the Puritanical point-of-view that wants tobacco outlawed (and has already created the miserably failed "war on drugs"), alcohol is FAR more harmful than tobacco.
 

ZOXXO

Golden Member
Feb 1, 2003
1,281
0
76
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
"We don't want to see a product introduced that will give back the gains we've made in this state in reducing teenage smoking. From a commonsense perspective, adults are not going to be interested in these products."

I'd like to know how he came to that conclusion:p


Probably polled the adults drinking black coffee at Starbucks. :confused:
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
76
Originally posted by: Vic
In most industries, government regulation is just an expensive unnecessary bureaucracy designed to subsidize the existing companies already in the industry and keep new competition out. So what you said is partially correct.
However, Libertarianism is not what most people think it is. Libertarianism is the ultimate and most common sense form of eye for eye tooth for tooth with the least amount of government. Crime is essentially defined as ANY measurable harm done under non-consenting circumstances. So (for example) if someone smokes for 40 years and dies of lung cancer, then that smoker could not sue because everyone knows that smoking is harmful and so no claim could be made that the smoker was not aware of the danger or did not consent to it. Thus, all are free to smoke as they wish. Harm yourself, it's your body and your life.
OTOH, if any individual or company pollutes other peoples' property (aka the "environment") without their consent in a way that cause measurable harm, then under Libertarianism they would pay to the absolute fullest extent necessary to remedy the damages.

These analogies could be translated into almost any circumstances. It is simple common sense government. Quite unlike the Puritarian moral-elitist screw-your-neighbor nanny-state bullsh!t we have now.

That may be what the government regulation does in most industries, but I do not agree that it is what the regulation was DESIGNED to do.

The circumstances described are overly simplistic and do not take into account the fact that in many cases you would either never find out about the "pollution" or you would find out so late that the harm is irrevocable and the people who profitted from it have distributed their funds into elaborate spiderwebs to protect themselves.

I don't support the governmental ban on flavored cigarettes, but I do support the notion that the government has the right to closely monitor the situation. Let's not forget that for a long time cigarette companies more or less kept secret their own findings which proved that cigarettes are harmful all the while polluting mass media with statements that they were not.
 

Conky

Lifer
May 9, 2001
10,709
0
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Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
Originally posted by: ChaoZ
Originally posted by: Crazyfool
I think they should just outlaw the sales of all cigarettes.

:beer:
Wow...just wow.

I hope my sarcasm meter is just broken.
The real irony is the :beer: emoticon.

From the Puritanical point-of-view that wants tobacco outlawed (and has already created the miserably failed "war on drugs"), alcohol is FAR more harmful than tobacco.
Yeah, but not to the person next to me. :beer:

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: Crazyfool
Yeah, but not to the person next to me. :beer:
Secondhand smoke as harmful is a myth without any actual valid scientific proof. Smokers puff a pack a day for 40 years straight and you think a little whiff is gonna kill you? :roll:
Alcohol OTOH is involved in almost every violent crime committed in America, particularly assaults, rapes, and murders, and kills another some 20k every year by DUI.
So your statement is wrong.
 

Conky

Lifer
May 9, 2001
10,709
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Crazyfool
Yeah, but not to the person next to me. :beer:
Secondhand smoke as harmful is a myth without any actual valid scientific proof. Smokers puff a pack a day for 40 years straight and you think a little whiff is gonna kill you? :roll:
Alcohol OTOH is involved in almost every violent crime committed in America, particularly assaults, rapes, and murders, and kills another some 20k every year by DUI.
So your statement is wrong.

No, it's not.

I think I'll take take the word of the American Medical Association on secondhand smoke over some self-appointed myth-buster. :laugh:

 

compudog

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2001
5,782
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Smoking is vile. I smoked for 20+ years, quit completely 4 years ago. Anything that can be done to keep cigarettes out of the lungs of our children should be done.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: Crazyfool
No, it's not.

I think I'll take take the word of the American Medical Association on secondhand smoke over some self-appointed myth-buster. :laugh:
In the words of Dr. Michael Crichton, MD: Text
... I believe the lesson was that with a catchy name, a strong policy position and an aggressive media campaign, nobody will dare to criticize the science, and in short order, a terminally weak thesis will be established as fact. After that, any criticism becomes beside the point. The war is already over without a shot being fired. That was the lesson, and we had a textbook application soon afterward, with second hand smoke.

In 1993, the EPA announced that second-hand smoke was "responsible for approximately 3,000 lung cancer deaths each year in nonsmoking adults," and that it " impairs the respiratory health of hundreds of thousands of people." In a 1994 pamphlet the EPA said that the eleven studies it based its decision on were not by themselves conclusive, and that they collectively assigned second-hand smoke a risk factor of 1.19. (For reference, a risk factor below 3.0 is too small for action by the EPA. or for publication in the New England Journal of Medicine, for example.) Furthermore, since there was no statistical association at the 95% coinfidence limits, the EPA lowered the limit to 90%. They then classified second hand smoke as a Group A Carcinogen.

This was openly fraudulent science, but it formed the basis for bans on smoking in restaurants, offices, and airports. California banned public smoking in 1995. Soon, no claim was too extreme. By 1998, the Christian Science Monitor was saying that "Second-hand smoke is the nation's third-leading preventable cause of death." The American Cancer Society announced that 53,000 people died each year of second-hand smoke. The evidence for this claim is nonexistent.

In 1998, a Federal judge held that the EPA had acted improperly, had "committed to a conclusion before research had begun", and had "disregarded information and made findings on selective information." The reaction of Carol Browner, head of the EPA was: "We stand by our science?.there's wide agreement. The American people certainly recognize that exposure to second hand smoke brings?a whole host of health problems." Again, note how the claim of consensus trumps science. In this case, it isn't even a consensus of scientists that Browner evokes! It's the consensus of the American people.

Meanwhile, ever-larger studies failed to confirm any association. A large, seven-country WHO study in 1998 found no association. Nor have well-controlled subsequent studies, to my knowledge. Yet we now read, for example, that second hand smoke is a cause of breast cancer. At this point you can say pretty much anything you want about second-hand smoke.