Law Lets I.R.S. Seize Accounts on Suspicion, No Crime Required

[xBiffx]

How about you stop derailing the thread?

This issue is more important than your partisan grudges.

Your comments are displaced. You should be referring to the poster boomerang was replying to.

 

[boomerang]

How about you stop derailing the thread?

This issue is more important than your partisan grudges.

xBiff pretty much covered it but I will explain it in a little more detail for you.

If x party does some stupid shit and then y party gets control and doesn't change the stupid shit x party did, then y party is to blame. I can't make it much simpler.

So from that we can extrapolate that the policies of the current administration are responsible for the way the government is being run at this moment. If the IRS is seizing bank accounts and keeping a portion of the funds I'm 100,000% positive that Bush is not going to be able to change that.

I can tell that it's upsetting to you that the government under Obama is doing things like this. But if you think back, he told us exactly what he was going to do. Redistribution was a huge part of his agenda. That's all this is. Taking from those that have and using it for those that don't have. Except that we will never know what the money is actually being used for.

To come full circle, we cannot blame what is happening now on previous Presidents. If you feel this is a serious topic as I do, although I can see you don't believe that, putting people with the same mindset back in control will get us more of the same. There really isn't any more discussion needed on this topic beyond that statement. Vote in people who don't support these policies or quit bitching. That's the bottom line. Put the blame in the right place and make the changes necessary. Otherwise, it's going to be status quo.

 

[smackababy]

What I don't understand about this SSgt is he was being paid electronically. So, he withdrew cash over a period of time, and then, upon the 'advice' of a bank teller, put it back into an account using an amount to avoid paperwork?

He wanted to "avoid paying taxes on it"? Since when does one pay taxes on deposits? He might possibly be worried about being audited for suspected unreported income, if they actually thought that.

I am going to bet it was the banks that reported this activity in the first place. "Person x deposits Y amount of cash every <time period>. Please investigate."

 

[master_shake_]

But you can say that about any law. It's funny how when it's something you personally agree with, the people voted for it. When it's something you personally don't agree with, the people didn't vote for it.

Anyways, the Patriot Act has been extended several times, so do we at least say it's our fault for re-electing people who support the Patriot Act?

its because they wrapped up their total surveillance package in to something that is obviously meant to blind people who hate terrists and squelch anyone who tries to speak against it.

patriotism.... the last great bastion of fear mongering.

call it what it is civil liberty solvent and then see how many people are for it.

 

[The Merg]

What I don't understand about this SSgt is he was being paid electronically. So, he withdrew cash over a period of time, and then, upon the 'advice' of a bank teller, put it back into an account using an amount to avoid paperwork?

He wanted to "avoid paying taxes on it"? Since when does one pay taxes on deposits? He might possibly be worried about being audited for suspected unreported income, if they actually thought that.

I am going to bet it was the banks that reported this activity in the first place. "Person x deposits Y amount of cash every <time period>. Please investigate."

Yeah, that seems a little strange. The bank had to have done the reporting. There is no other way they would have known about the deposits if they weren't already watching him.

- Merg

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Agreed. It's not just the IRS either - cops commonly confiscate large amounts of cash "just cause". Same with guns and vehicles - we
ll just take it, and you can get a lawyer to try and prove your innocence. It's the new serfdom.

Which is essentially an action by those government officials that labels a person guilty until proven innocent without any due process.

 

[Atreus21]

Yeah, civil asset forfeiture is definitely going too far. While I understand the concept behind it and believe it does have its place in certain situations, it does seem like things are out of hand now.

No maybe someone can explain something to me. As I understand it, conservatives say that Obama is a socialist and we are becoming a socialist state where he wants to redistribute wealth among everybody here. However, conservatives are viewed as creating a larger police state and giving more and more power to law enforcement and Federal agencies.

Am I missing something here or do I have things messed up? If I don't, aren't these both points of view leading to the same thing since aren't most socialist states also police states?

- Merg

Where do you get this impression of conservatives? I've heard them espouse harsher criminal penalties, but not more powerful government agencies.

 

[highland145]

I am going to bet it was the banks that reported this activity in the first place. "Person x deposits Y amount of cash every <time period>. Please investigate."

DOJ
FDIC
Operation Choke Point.

<---victim, imo.

 

[bradley]

not one american who isn't part of the senate or congress voted on the patriot act.

it was passed out of fear mongering by a president that was retarded.

hey i heard they finally found wmd's in iraq... too bad they were the ones the americans sold them during the iraq-iran war...

You do realize that Joe Biden drafted the foundation of the Patriot Act in 1995 as the Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995, right? You know, the guy currently second-in-command to President Obama.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Counterterrorism_Act_of_1995

Now back to the regularly scheduled game of political football.

 

[The Merg]

Where do you get this impression of conservatives? I've heard them espouse harsher criminal penalties, but not more powerful government agencies.

I think based more on the view that conservatives tend to be very pro-law enforcement and will usually support additional funding and tools requested by law enforcement. The exception to that would be gun control.

With stronger law enforcement agencies in regards to the powers they have, does that not lead people to believing we are moving to a police state? I see that even here.

And for the record, while I am pro-law enforcement, I am quite liberal in certain other issues.

- Merg

 

[DCal430]

Yeah, civil asset forfeiture is definitely going too far. While I understand the concept behind it and believe it does have its place in certain situations, it does seem like things are out of hand now.

No maybe someone can explain something to me. As I understand it, conservatives say that Obama is a socialist and we are becoming a socialist state where he wants to redistribute wealth among everybody here. However, conservatives are viewed as creating a larger police state and giving more and more power to law enforcement and Federal agencies.

Am I missing something here or do I have things messed up? If I don't, aren't these both points of view leading to the same thing since aren't most socialist states also police states?

- Merg

It depends, it was liberal judges in California that ruled a bicyclists without ID who is stopped for a traffic violation, is subject to arrest, having his bike taken apart and searched for drugs.

So now this is actually the supreme law of the land in California, bicyclists must have verified ID, or risk arrest and drug search.

 

[boomerang]

You do realize that Joe Biden drafted the foundation of the Patriot Act in 1995 as the Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995, right? You know, the guy currently second-in-command to President Obama.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Counterterrorism_Act_of_1995

Now back to the regularly scheduled game of political football.

I think we have to remind ourselves from time to time that we have many, many people in this nation who have been brainwashed by our educational system to foist blame on those they have been taught are the enemy. They are unaware and uninterested in the truth behind where our nation has been and where it is headed. We have a President who has deep roots in Marxist principles who told us where he wanted to take this nation. Many of us spoke of the dangers of his Presidency and we were torn a new one day after day after day by those same brainwashed folks. As the things we warned about have come to pass in varying degrees of success, we still hear the outrage from the brainwashed masses. I got some here in this thread. When I put the blame on the current people in power I am told it's not them it is their predecessors. Knee jerk reactions based in the brainwashing they received in our schools. People that for whatever reason can't comprehend that only the people currently in power can make changes.

Politician's don't run for office to perform public service. They run for power and wealth. For that they need control over as many people as possible. If that means keeping classes of people poor and dependent on them then they'll use their power to maintain that. If it necessitates creating a whole new batch of them with the stroke of a pen, they'll do that too. It's become far easier when you've got legions of people that will scream racist, misogynist and whatever else they've been taught when some of us sound the alarm. Creating a bigger underclass is not the road to longevity. Those that make can only provide so much for those that take before the system collapses upon itself. History shows us this. It just doesn't work.

Enough of all that. If you don't like where our country is headed, be honest with yourself that it's OK to feel that way. Understand that what you've been taught may in fact not be truth. If you have the means please, get your children out of the public school system and into a private school. We must break the cycle of brainwashing. Get your children the type of education where they are shown that there are various ways of looking at issues, that there are consequences to the actions taken and history has shown us what happens when this course is taken and that course is taken. Put them in a learning environment where they are not told what to think but where they are taught to think and decide for themselves. You want them exposed to the whole picture not just a narrow view. If they go on to higher education, good luck with that. Our universities are cesspools. Give them the base to think for themselves and hopefully they will be able to run the gauntlet to get the grade and get out with their brains still able to function.

The change must come from the bottom up through the education of our children. That's right out of the Marxist playbook BTW but the difference is a well rounded education versus a narrow focused one. We already know this method works. Look around you and right here in this thread to see it's "successes". The change to be made is not to brainwash like we've been doing but to educate. It's the way out. The sooner it happens the better are our chances.

 

[FerrelGeek]

not one american who isn't part of the senate or congress voted on the patriot act.

it was passed out of fear mongering by a president that was retarded.

hey i heard they finally found wmd's in iraq... too bad they were the ones the americans sold them during the iraq-iran war...

And kept in place by the current congress and president. Obama could stop this if he really felt like it. He's had no trouble so far in not enforcing certain laws he didn't like or felt would be disadvantageous.

 

[The Merg]

And kept in place by the current congress and president. Obama could stop this if he really felt like it. He's had no trouble so far in not enforcing certain laws he didn't like or felt would be disadvantageous.

And to be fair, the same applies to all their predecessors as well.

- Merg

 

[werepossum]

Which is essentially an action by those government officials that labels a person guilty until proven innocent without any due process.

Yep. It's a realignment of our nation's core values.

You do realize that Joe Biden drafted the foundation of the Patriot Act in 1995 as the Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995, right? You know, the guy currently second-in-command to President Obama.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Counterterrorism_Act_of_1995

Now back to the regularly scheduled game of political football.

lol +1

Any attempt to make this a partisan problem is heading for embarrassment. It's an Obama problem only because he is currently in charge; had McCain or Romney won, it would be a McCain or Romney problem, guaranteed. This isn't left vs right, it's political class vs non-political class, big powerful government vs Constitutional limited government, us vs them. We may feel we're part of "us" for law & order (GOP) or big government (Dems) but everyone here is part of "them".

I think we have to remind ourselves from time to time that we have many, many people in this nation who have been brainwashed by our educational system to foist blame on those they have been taught are the enemy. They are unaware and uninterested in the truth behind where our nation has been and where it is headed. We have a President who has deep roots in Marxist principles who told us where he wanted to take this nation. Many of us spoke of the dangers of his Presidency and we were torn a new one day after day after day by those same brainwashed folks. As the things we warned about have come to pass in varying degrees of success, we still hear the outrage from the brainwashed masses. I got some here in this thread. When I put the blame on the current people in power I am told it's not them it is their predecessors. Knee jerk reactions based in the brainwashing they received in our schools. People that for whatever reason can't comprehend that only the people currently in power can make changes.

Politician's don't run for office to perform public service. They run for power and wealth. For that they need control over as many people as possible. If that means keeping classes of people poor and dependent on them then they'll use their power to maintain that. If it necessitates creating a whole new batch of them with the stroke of a pen, they'll do that too. It's become far easier when you've got legions of people that will scream racist, misogynist and whatever else they've been taught when some of us sound the alarm. Creating a bigger underclass is not the road to longevity. Those that make can only provide so much for those that take before the system collapses upon itself. History shows us this. It just doesn't work.

Enough of all that. If you don't like where our country is headed, be honest with yourself that it's OK to feel that way. Understand that what you've been taught may in fact not be truth. If you have the means please, get your children out of the public school system and into a private school. We must break the cycle of brainwashing. Get your children the type of education where they are shown that there are various ways of looking at issues, that there are consequences to the actions taken and history has shown us what happens when this course is taken and that course is taken. Put them in a learning environment where they are not told what to think but where they are taught to think and decide for themselves. You want them exposed to the whole picture not just a narrow view. If they go on to higher education, good luck with that. Our universities are cesspools. Give them the base to think for themselves and hopefully they will be able to run the gauntlet to get the grade and get out with their brains still able to function.

The change must come from the bottom up through the education of our children. That's right out of the Marxist playbook BTW but the difference is a well rounded education versus a narrow focused one. We already know this method works. Look around you and right here in this thread to see it's "successes". The change to be made is not to brainwash like we've been doing but to educate. It's the way out. The sooner it happens the better are our chances.

If we had President McCain or Romney they'd be doing the exact same thing, just giving different reasons. Power seeks more power.

 

[FerrelGeek]

And to be fair, the same applies to all their predecessors as well.

- Merg

Fine. But the perpetual whining about Bush for things like this is just stupid at this point. Obama is in charge now, it's his responsibility. But he seems perfectly content with the IRS being an abusive agency.

 

[The Merg]

Fine. But the perpetual whining about Bush for things like this is just stupid at this point. Obama is in charge now, it's his responsibility. But he seems perfectly content with the IRS being an abusive agency.

True and the next political leadership will be the same, albeit it may be with a different agency.

- Merg

 

[OutHouse]

All seizures needs to be based on reasonable suspicion and warrants. Conservative judges have been making dubious exceptions to this Constitutional command for long time.

dude, warrants are not being issued or needed and no criminal complaints are being filed. the government is just taking peoples money.

please stop with the conservative bullshit. Obamas IRS is the one doing it along with every police dept in the country, not some religious nutjob christian conservative texas judge that you seem to think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks#t=145

 

[Mai72]

I can't wait until people wise up and overthrow these bums in office.

When will this happen?

 

[WackyDan]

I'll just buy a safe and store cash there. Assholes.

Except that when you attempt to buy a car from a dealer with more than $10k in cash or if you attempt to buy anything with more than $10k in cash you will have to fill out a report and fear the gov't seizing your money for the crime of simply saving it.

 

[WackyDan]

not one american who isn't part of the senate or congress voted on the patriot act.

it was passed out of fear mongering by a president that was retarded.

hey i heard they finally found wmd's in iraq... too bad they were the ones the americans sold them during the iraq-iran war...

Got news for you... The $10k rule has been around far longer than the Patriot Act.

 

[Mai72]

Why did past generations put their life savings in mattress, safes and empty jars?

They distrusted the government.

 

[Triumph]

The ACLU needs to support one of these small-time business owners to take seizures like this to the Supreme Court. The 4th and 5th amendments are pretty clear on this, the wording isn't in any way strange or debatable like the 2nd:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,

I'd say that a seizure of my effects without being charged with a crime counts as unreasonable, wouldn't you?

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

These people have been deprived of their property, without due process of law. How is this even debatable?

 

[MrPickins]

Edit: Nevermind...

If we had President McCain or Romney they'd be doing the exact same thing, just giving different reasons. Power seeks more power.

Exactly this. :thumbsup:

 

[OutHouse]

I'd say that a seizure of my effects without being charged with a crime counts as unreasonable, wouldn't you?

you are not being charged with a crime, your property is. thats how they get around it. which is 100% pure bullshit.