Latest Backblaze results

[BFG10K]

Looks like the 4TB Seagate is having some serious issues:

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-failure-rates-q1-2017/

 

[fleshconsumed]

Worth noting that that this is only for the 7200RPM model, the 5900RPM model is chugging along just fine (one of the reasons I prefer to stay with low power green spinners, never understood the hate for low RPM hard drives). Also note that backblaze 4TB DX batch size is not statistically significant, it may point to a problem with that series, but could also be a fluke.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

"Not statistically significant."

But, you know, drama away.

 

[Nashemon]

After the fiasco of the 3TB drives, Backblaze reports said the 4TB were worlds better. I bought the hype and I upgraded all of mine to 4TBs. Got about 6 of them (they could be 5900's, though, I'll have to check when I get home). And now of course their reports indicate the 8TB models are significantly better. Starting to think Backblaze's testing methods are flawed. Undue stress on the drives causing premature failure rates or something; or someone is in their back pocket, convincing people to upgrade.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

After the fiasco of the 3TB drives, Backblaze reports said the 4TB were worlds better. I bought the hype and I upgraded all of mine to 4TBs. Got about 6 of them (they could be 5900's, though, I'll have to check when I get home). And now of course their reports indicate the 8TB models are significantly better. Starting to think Backblaze's testing methods are flawed. Undue stress on the drives causing premature failure rates or something; or someone is in their back pocket, convincing people to upgrade.

Ummm... if you're replacing working drives because new drives are more reliable, instead of because you need more disk space, you're doing it wrong.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

"Not statistically significant."

But, you know, drama away.

I'm more concerned with that 3.3% on the DM000 model, with 35k of them that's not insignificant, and higher than others.

 

[Nashemon]

Ummm... if you're replacing working drives because new drives are more reliable, instead of because you need more disk space, you're doing it wrong.

I exaggerate. I had three 3TB's when the old report about them came out. My immediate response was that I realized one was still withing return period, so I returned it and bought a 4TB to replace it. Since then I've added several more 4TBs over the next few years as I needed space. The two 3TB's I still have just house some offline backups. The reports affect me because it makes me leary to trust them in production.

 

[Elixer]

AFAIK, Backblaze's drives NEVER spin down.
That is the main killer for consumer drives, all the spin up's / spin down's they do.

This is also why I really hate aggressive settings they do for consumer units to "save power". All that does is stress the parts more.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

I exaggerate. I had three 3TB's when the old report about them came out. My immediate response was that I realized one was still withing return period, so I returned it and bought a 4TB to replace it. Since then I've added several more 4TBs over the next few years as I needed space. The two 3TB's I still have just house some offline backups. The reports affect me because it makes me leary to trust them in production.

You should never trust a hard drive. Backup, backup, backup!

 

[bigboxes]

AFAIK, Backblaze's drives NEVER spin down.
That is the main killer for consumer drives, all the spin up's / spin down's they do.

This is also why I really hate aggressive settings they do for consumer units to "save power". All that does is stress the parts more.

My file server and main rig are on 24/7. Only reboot if necessary. I have a 12 year old Raptor that must be the golden child. I realize that it's overbuilt, but never had a problem with it. The only drawback today is its capacity; 74GB. Don't really use it much. I just want to see how long it will last at this point.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

 

[seagate_surfer]

Hi, this is the official Seagate forums team! We are currently establishing and expanding the team to be closer to customers and deliver an even better customer experience.

In regards to what has been posted in this thread we would like to mention that we are aware of what is being published and how things are spreading all over the internet. However -without understating possible issues- there are always two sides of the story. In case you are interested to get a better idea of what was going on, we would like to refer to the following articles / comments:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/02/17/backblaze_how_not_to_evaluate_disk_reliability

http://insidehpc.com/2015/02/henry-newman-on-why-backblaze-is-still-wrong-about-disk-reliability/

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/6...-story-covered/index.html#UX5OD0IAgPphmv71.99

As stated, we are trying to be as close as possible to the end consumer and trying to help and solve issues wherever we can. So in case you have any problems, please do not hesitate to contact Seagate Support here .

Seagate Technology | Official Forums Team

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Hi, this is the official Seagate forums team! We are currently establishing and expanding the team to be closer to customers and deliver an even better customer experience.

In regards to what has been posted in this thread we would like to mention that we are aware of what is being published and how things are spreading all over the internet. However -without understating possible issues- there are always two sides of the story. In case you are interested to get a better idea of what was going on, we would like to refer to the following articles / comments:

● https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/02/17/backblaze_how_not_to_evaluate_disk_reliability

● http://insidehpc.com/2015/02/henry-newman-on-why-backblaze-is-still-wrong-about-disk-reliability/

● http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/6...-story-covered/index.html#UX5OD0IAgPphmv71.99

As stated, we are trying to be as close as possible to the end consumer and trying to help and solve issues wherever we can. So in case you have any problems, please do not hesitate to contact Seagate Support here .

Seagate Technology | Official Forums Team

Hmm...

Please ask your manager to double check with their director; is throwing one of your customers under the bus really a good idea?

Also, point out that using 2-3 year old blog posts as supporting evidence (instead of having some Seagate engineering people - and I know you have a bunch of them - come up with an official in-house response) is probably a good idea, from a credibility standpoint.

 

[Elixer]

Hi, this is the official Seagate forums team! We are currently establishing and expanding the team to be closer to customers and deliver an even better customer experience.

Nice.
So, does "an even better customer experience" mean that Seagate's warranty will now change back to what it was before, so when I actually buy the unit on X date, the warranty will also start on the X date, and NOT when the drive was made?

In regards to what has been posted in this thread we would like to mention that we are aware of what is being published and how things are spreading all over the internet. However -without understating possible issues- there are always two sides of the story.

Care to share Seagate's side of this? Why are other maker's HDs performing better than Seagate's models? What specifically is BackBlaze doing "wrong" that Seagate's hardware doesn't like?

As stated, we are trying to be as close as possible to the end consumer and trying to help and solve issues wherever we can. So in case you have any problems, please do not hesitate to contact Seagate Support here .

Seagate Technology | Official Forums Team

So, this was a hit & run post, stating what you want, then, any followups should be done on Segate's support site?

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

Classy as a long, loud, wet fart in a Lourve, Mr. Seagate.

I haven't trusted your damn drives since 2008 and never, ever buy them for my customers. This arrogant squitter ensures I won't be changing my mind on that any time soon.


This is not OT or P&N.
This content you just posted, is not allowed in the tech forums. Ever.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Meh. I doubt he's really a Seagate employee.

 

[seagate_surfer]

Hi,

Thank you for giving this feedback! The reason we're out in forums is because this type of feedback is super important to us and we want to make sure we're not missing anything. We definitely would never want to throw anyone under the bus (customer or not)! You made a really great point about the date of those articles and your point is definitely heard. Perhaps a better approach would have been to explain that at this time, the failure rate is not considered statistically significant by Backblaze or Seagate, and I can say with certainty that our engineering team is working diligently to make sure that the drives that we put out are of the highest quality found in any market. That said, this type of information is really important to us and we do take it very seriously. Thank you again for sharing this feedback, and I'm sorry for any miscommunication.

Seagate Technology | Official Forums Team

 

[Elixer]

Thank you for giving this feedback! The reason we're out in forums is because this type of feedback is super important to us and we want to make sure we're not missing anything.

With Seagate butchering their own warranty start date, that tells consumers that even Seagate isn't standing behind their products anymore. Warranties used to be 5 years across the board, then down to 3, and now, two or one year is common, but of course, that 1 year is when Seagate made the drive, not when the consumer bought it, so, it could be possible to have a 30 day warranty or less depending on if it is "old stock" or not.
So, this

I can say with certainty that our engineering team is working diligently to make sure that the drives that we put out are of the highest quality found in any market

rings hollow.

 

[BFG10K]

In regards to what has been posted in this thread we would like to mention that we are aware of what is being published and how things are spreading all over the internet. However -without understating possible issues- there are always two sides of the story. In case you are interested to get a better idea of what was going on, we would like to refer to the following articles / comments:

The situation seems very simple to me. Backblaze uses a large amount of drives under extreme conditions. One vendor does consistently well (Hitachi), one vendor does almost as well (WDC), and one vendor produces repeated examples of lemons (Seagate).

So a consumer can pick a vendor that is known to do well under extreme conditions, or they can pick a vendor that doesn’t do well and hope they get a better result under normal conditions.

 

[thilanliyan]

Yeah, I don't get it...what is wrong with the Backblaze results according to seagate?

Seagate should build a solid drive, get some long term reliability results showing that the drives at least match the competitors and people will buy. Considering the amount of lemon drives seagate has had recently, I won't be buying their drives until I see some positive long term reliability data. And this is from someone who bought exclusively Seagate until about 2008.

 

[tential]

The situation seems very simple to me. Backblaze uses a large amount of drives under extreme conditions. One vendor does consistently well (Hitachi), one vendor does almost as well (WDC), and one vendor produces repeated examples of lemons (Seagate).

So a consumer can pick a vendor that is known to do well under extreme conditions, or they can pick a vendor that doesn’t do well and hope they get a better result under normal conditions.

The situation seems clear to me.
Blackblaze tests a large amount of drives under varying extreme conditions. Some drives get different pod enclosures, and are obtained in varying manners from some being refurbs to being taken out of an external drive.

It's not an apples to apples comparison in so many respects, that the only people who don't see it simply didn't bother to read beyond the headlines/tables and first few steps of the matter which is understandable. As a person who spends a TON on HDDs every year (at least $1k at a minimum), I came across the same things the Seagate rep came across, and MORE.

As a person who is data specific and had to figure out exactly how Blackblaze gathered their data, this just isn't relevant to me as a consumer. It's just interesting.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

AFAIK, Backblaze's drives NEVER spin down.
That is the main killer for consumer drives, all the spin up's / spin down's they do.

Most of my drives never spin down, and I've got the utility bills to prove it

 

[bigboxes]

Most of my drives never spin down, and I've got the utility bills to prove it

Is your electrical bill really that much? I know you have an abnormal amount of drives. However, I keep 12 drives running 24/7. My power bill is usually under $100 until deep summer. How much does your server really affect your electrical usage?

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Is your electrical bill really that much? I know you have an abnormal amount of drives. However, I keep 12 drives running 24/7. My power bill is usually under $100 until deep summer. How much does your server really affect your electrical usage?

Probably not so much the drives themselves (though they certainly don't help), but more the stuff surrounding them (CPU, etc.)
That and most of my rigs are on 24/7/365. The additional heat load does not help either, especially during summer.

 

[cbn]

Glad to see the 8TB Seagate is doing well.