Largest US private coal company goes bankrupt

[K1052]

Remember Bob Murray? He's defaulted on his loans.





https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/business/murray-energy-bankruptcy/index.html

The slow death of the American coal industry has forced Murray Energy, the largest private coal miner in the United States, to file for bankruptcy protection Tuesday.

Murray Energy's bankruptcy has been telegraphed for years. It recently failed to make payments to lenders, and the company entered into a forbearance agreement that bought it time to negotiate a restructuring. But that grace period came and went, and Murray Energy was unable to pay its bills. S&P Global Ratings downgraded the company's credit rating to "default" earlier this month.

The coal company formed a restructuring agreement with some of its lenders, representing about 60% of Murray's $1.7 billion in liabilities. The company announced Tuesday it has received $350 million in credit to keep its business operational through bankruptcy.

Robert Murray, the self-proclaimed king of the coal industry, has been replaced as CEO. Murray Energy announced Tuesday that former Chief Financial Officer Robert Moore will take over as the company's new chief executive. Robert Murray will remain as the company's chairman.

The whole industry except for met coal is essentially done for. It's just a question of how soon and the end appears to be closer than many people thought.

 

[dank69]

Too bad we don't have more green job openings available for all those workers affected by this decline. I feel really bad about that. I really do. No seriously.

 

[Commodus]

This is one of the things that kept me from worrying too much about the Trump regime's anti-environment stance: knowing that attempts to prop up coal were too little, too late. Coal will and must die, and it's just a matter of time before the US has switched to renewable and less damaging alternatives like natural gas.

Next up: electrifying cars. It's funny to see the Trump administration trying to undo fuel efficiency and emissions progress when many of the companies are pushing forward with EVs and hybrids regardless. Mind you, they're doing that partly because they know Trump's damage will be undone the moment there's a Democrat President. There's no point trying to sell gas guzzlers when they'll be unfeasible a couple of years from now.

 

[glenn1]

This is one of the things that kept me from worrying too much about the Trump regime's anti-environment stance: knowing that attempts to prop up coal were too little, too late. Coal will and must die, and it's just a matter of time before the US has switched to renewable and less damaging alternatives like natural gas.

Next up: electrifying cars. It's funny to see the Trump administration trying to undo fuel efficiency and emissions progress when many of the companies are pushing forward with EVs and hybrids regardless. Mind you, they're doing that partly because they know Trump's damage will be undone the moment there's a Democrat President. There's no point trying to sell gas guzzlers when they'll be unfeasible a couple of years from now.

I highly doubt ICE cars be unfeasible in a "couple years from now." At this point all-electric cars are still more novelty and 3rd car (or 4th, 5th, 6th) for rich urban folks with limited distance needs and only suitable in limited use cases. As technology improves, more infrastructure gets built, and some standardized workarounds exist for quick charging/battery switchout/etc. get developed that address the constraints that limit the usefulness of the technology, you'll see the adoption rate of all-electric vehicles ramp up over time. At some point as with the switchover from CRT monitors to LCDs the sales ratio will tip in favor of all-electric as attrition/replacement of the existing vehicle fleets occur. There's still challenges to be worked out (like the baseline power question for utility grids) but otherwise not trying to force the issue by government fiat is the best thing that could happened for green power, electric cars, etc.

 

[OccamsToothbrush]

The pitter=patter of little feet you hear is John Oliver dancing around his desk. Last Week Tonight absolutely roasted Murray in 2017 and Murray sued for defamation of character which got tossed out of court.

 

[Brainonska511]

I highly doubt ICE cars be unfeasible in a "couple years from now." At this point all-electric cars are still more novelty and 3rd car (or 4th, 5th, 6th) for rich urban folks with limited distance needs and only suitable in limited use cases. As technology improves, more infrastructure gets built, and some standardized workarounds exist for quick charging/battery switchout/etc. get developed that address the constraints that limit the usefulness of the technology, you'll see the adoption rate of all-electric vehicles ramp up over time. At some point as with the switchover from CRT monitors to LCDs the sales ratio will tip in favor of all-electric as attrition/replacement of the existing vehicle fleets occur. There's still challenges to be worked out (like the baseline power question for utility grids) but otherwise not trying to force the issue by government fiat is the best thing that could happened for green power, electric cars, etc.

I think you have some strange ideas about the capabilities and use cases of current electric cars.

 

[senseamp]

If only there was a candidate who warned about this in 2016 election:

Instead of dividing people the way Donald Trump does, let’s reunite around politics that will bring jobs and opportunities to all these under-served poor communities. So, for example, I’m the only candidate who has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into coal country. Because we’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right, Tim? [Rep. Tim Ryan (D-OH) was in the audience.]
And we’re going to make it clear that we don’t want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories. Now we’ve got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don’t want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce energy that we relied on.

Of course Trump trash only read the bolded part, and now it's being taken out to the dumpster

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Too bad we don't have more green job openings available for all those workers affected by this decline. I feel really bad about that. I really do. No seriously.

I'm sure there are... such as...

mining rare minerals needed for solar panels and Li-Ion batteries... in China...
constructing solar panels.... in China...
constructing batteries....in China....

Oh I guess we might have some construction of windmills, so I guess you have that. I'm sure that can totally make-up for the engineering and geological jobs of related to lost mining jobs in the US....

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I think you have some strange ideas about the capabilities and use cases of current electric cars.

Such as? Everything he said is spot on. His main message was that electric cars will revolutionize at some point and start selling way better... but that isn't going to be in the next 5 years.

Having to charge a battery for a matter of hours isn't comparible and doesn't work for the majority of MIDDLE AND LOWER CLASS Americans that need to get somewhere on the spot - and until there is something like battery swap-out the concept of refilling a tank at a station in less than 5 minutes will continue to be king.

 

[K1052]

I'm sure there are... such as...

mining rare minerals needed for solar panels and Li-Ion batteries... in China...
constructing solar panels.... in China...
constructing batteries....in China....

Oh I guess we might have some construction of windmills, so I guess you have that. I'm sure that can totally make-up for the engineering and geological jobs of related to lost mining jobs in the US....

Wind energy employment is more than double that of coal. Solar is about 5 times the jobs of coal. Offshore wind promises yet more thousands of jobs.

A concerted government effort could have retrained and placed these people for an industry that will exist in 20 -30 years.

 

[K1052]

Such as? Everything he said is spot on. His main message was that electric cars will revolutionize at some point and start selling way better... but that isn't going to be in the next 5 years.

Having to charge a battery for a matter of hours isn't comparible and doesn't work for the majority of MIDDLE AND LOWER CLASS Americans that need to get somewhere on the spot - and until there is something like battery swap-out the concept of refilling a tank at a station in less than 5 minutes will continue to be king.

Private vehicles spend the vast majority of their lives parked providing ample time for charging.

 

[UNCjigga]

I highly doubt ICE cars be unfeasible in a "couple years from now." At this point all-electric cars are still more novelty and 3rd car (or 4th, 5th, 6th) for rich urban folks with limited distance needs and only suitable in limited use cases.

Not sure how it is in your neck of the woods, but in my part of North Carolina, the “rich urban folks” (those with a modest $300k-$400k home) seem to be snatching up Teslas and Leafs at a pretty good pace. Funny enough, electrics seem to be more popular with older couples/empty nesters vs. younger “greener” folk.

Also, a few neighbors have consolidated to a single family car in order to cover the payments on high-spec Model 3 or Model S, and expect to spend less money overall w/o gas expenses (they also Uber and Lyft, or rent a minivan/SUV for road trips as needed.)

I’m actually surprised we don’t see more plug in hybrids—I would’ve thought that would be an option (if not standard) on every popular 2020 sedan/crossover at this point, but it seems like car makers are skipping that step and going full electrification faster.

 

[uallas5]

Wind energy employment is more than double that of coal. Solar is about 5 times the jobs of coal. Offshore wind promises yet more thousands of jobs.

A concerted government effort could have retrained and placed these people for an industry that will exist in 20 -30 years.

And last time I checked, the amount of workers in these industries suffering from black lung disease was exactly 0%

 

[glenn1]

Such as? Everything he said is spot on. His main message was that electric cars will revolutionize at some point and start selling way better... but that isn't going to be in the next 5 years.

Having to charge a battery for a matter of hours isn't comparible and doesn't work for the majority of MIDDLE AND LOWER CLASS Americans that need to get somewhere on the spot - and until there is something like battery swap-out the concept of refilling a tank at a station in less than 5 minutes will continue to be king.

"The peasants are revolting because they have no bread - Well then let them eat cake" has been replaced with progressives arguing about how of course everyone isn't giving all-electric cars a fair shot and how they know better than consumers who are wrong.

Not sure how it is in your neck of the woods, but in my part of North Carolina, the “rich urban folks” (those with a modest $300k-$400k home) seem to be snatching up Teslas and Leafs at a pretty good pace. Funny enough, electrics seem to be more popular with older couples/empty nesters vs. younger “greener” folk.

Also, a few neighbors have consolidated to a single family car in order to cover the payments on high-spec Model 3 or Model S, and expect to spend less money overall w/o gas expenses (they also Uber and Lyft, or rent a minivan/SUV for road trips as needed.)

I’m actually surprised we don’t see more plug in hybrids—I would’ve thought that would be an option (if not standard) on every popular 2020 sedan/crossover at this point, but it seems like car makers are skipping that step and going full electrification faster.

All electrics were something like maybe 2% of sales last year? That number and your anecdotal example of "folks with a modest $300-400k home" (in North Carolina of all places where home prices are cheap) seem to point more towards my "novelty 4th car for rich folks" than widely adopted 1st car for poors/middle class folks than the progressive's dreams of Nissan Leafs as far as the eye could see. Actually they'd probably rather outlaw cars outright and make everyone take the public bus.

 

[tweaker2]

Another pie in the sky sales pitch by Trump being shoved back down his windpipe.

But will it cause his supporters to accuse him of welshing yet again on one of his empty vote getting scams?

Of course not, because he tried his best but the Democrats obstructed him like always. lol

 

[IronWing]

And last time I checked, the amount of workers in these industries suffering from black lung disease was exactly 0%

Yep, the day no person (American or anyone else) goes underground to mine coal will be a great day for humanity. Automation and substitution can't come fast enough for coal mining.

<= geologist

 

[K1052]

Actually they'd probably rather outlaw cars outright and make everyone take the public bus.

Don't threaten me with a good time.

 

[senseamp]

Such as? Everything he said is spot on. His main message was that electric cars will revolutionize at some point and start selling way better... but that isn't going to be in the next 5 years.

Having to charge a battery for a matter of hours isn't comparible and doesn't work for the majority of MIDDLE AND LOWER CLASS Americans that need to get somewhere on the spot - and until there is something like battery swap-out the concept of refilling a tank at a station in less than 5 minutes will continue to be king.

Most Americans don't drive 300 miles a day. Also, trashy people are going to drive trashy cars, that's nothing new.

 

[glenn1]

And last time I checked, the amount of workers in these industries suffering from black lung disease was exactly 0%

Yeah they'd get silicosis or pneumoconiosis instead from mining silicon. Or chemical burns from the chlorosilanes and hydrogen chloride used to make solar panels. No one likes black lung or any other work-related illness but that's not really a good argument for alternatives which have different risk profiles. Coal is dying in fair economic battle with alternatives and that's how it should be.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Private vehicles spend the vast majority of their lives parked providing ample time for charging.

Except you know... Charging stations aren't everywhere. You're insinuating that
1) Everyone can charge at home in a reasonable time. This definitely isn't true - especially because majority of homes don't have proper wiring.
2) Charging stations are incredibly scarce in non-affluent places.
3) You assume everyone has multiple vehicles - anyone with a brain knows for lower and middle class this often isn't true.

Take a step outside of your liberal affluent bubbles and try to put your shoes into a rural (or urban even) lower middle class citizen - You know - the people that make up the majority of this country?

Yeah they'd get silicosis or pneumoconiosis instead from mining silicon. Or chemical burns from the chlorosilanes and hydrogen chloride used to make solar panels. No one likes black lung or any other work-related illness but that's not really a good argument for alternatives which have different risk profiles. Coal is dying in fair economic battle with alternatives and that's how it should be.

Shhhh that only happens to sweat shop people in China. Out of sight out of mind.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Most Americans don't drive 300 miles a day. Also, trashy people are going to drive trashy cars, that's nothing new.

lol for folks that are all about helping the poor and middle class, you guys like to subvertly shit on them without noticing.

 

[Commodus]

I highly doubt ICE cars be unfeasible in a "couple years from now." At this point all-electric cars are still more novelty and 3rd car (or 4th, 5th, 6th) for rich urban folks with limited distance needs and only suitable in limited use cases. As technology improves, more infrastructure gets built, and some standardized workarounds exist for quick charging/battery switchout/etc. get developed that address the constraints that limit the usefulness of the technology, you'll see the adoption rate of all-electric vehicles ramp up over time. At some point as with the switchover from CRT monitors to LCDs the sales ratio will tip in favor of all-electric as attrition/replacement of the existing vehicle fleets occur. There's still challenges to be worked out (like the baseline power question for utility grids) but otherwise not trying to force the issue by government fiat is the best thing that could happened for green power, electric cars, etc.

It's not that ICE as a whole will be unfeasible, it's the retrogression. I agree that EVs aren't going to take over that quickly, although I do think you're underselling their ability to serve as primary cars. I know a few people whose main car is a Tesla, and my brother drives a Nissan Leaf.

I said what I did mainly because I know multiple major car makers are planning to electrify rapidly, to the point where they'll each have multiple EVs that might not cost as much as you think. That tipping point isn't quite here yet, but it looks like it might be just a few years away, not a decade or more.

I know you weren't arguing this (not explicitly, at least), but I'd also say the Obama administration wasn't trying to force the issue. EV incentives have been necessary until the economies of scale ramped up, and tougher emissions/fuel economy standards are good incentives for companies to improve their technology. You want to nudge the industry in the right direction.

 

[senseamp]

Yeah they'd get silicosis or pneumoconiosis instead from mining silicon. Or chemical burns from the chlorosilanes and hydrogen chloride used to make solar panels. No one likes black lung or any other work-related illness but that's not really a good argument for alternatives which have different risk profiles. Coal is dying in fair economic battle with alternatives and that's how it should be.

Not very comparable. Even if mining risks were similar to mining coal, solar panel requires a thin wafer of silicon and makes energy for decades. Many orders of magnitude more coal than silicon is needed to provide same energy to households, and hence many more miners and much more black lung than silicosis from mining a few pounds of quartz for a solar panel.

 

[senseamp]

lol for folks that are all about helping the poor and middle class, you guys like to subvertly shit on them without noticing.

They should help themselves and ride a bicycle more.

 

[glenn1]

It's not that ICE as a whole will be unfeasible, it's the retrogression. I agree that EVs aren't going to take over that quickly, although I do think you're underselling their ability to serve as primary cars. I know a few people whose main car is a Tesla, and my brother drives a Nissan Leaf.

I said what I did mainly because I know multiple major car makers are planning to electrify rapidly, to the point where they'll each have multiple EVs that might not cost as much as you think. That tipping point isn't quite here yet, but it looks like it might be just a few years away, not a decade or more.

I know you weren't arguing this (not explicitly, at least), but I'd also say the Obama administration wasn't trying to force the issue. EV incentives have been necessary until the economies of scale ramped up, and tougher emissions/fuel economy standards are good incentives for companies to improve their technology. You want to nudge the industry in the right direction.

I'd daresay the unrealistic CAFE standards the Obama admin introduced was exactly "trying to force the issue." They knew damn well they couldn't be reached without putting the finger on the scale for all-electric vehicles. I say this as someone who doesn't have a dog in the fight for electric vs. ICE technology and would be perfectly fine buying an all-electric myself. It's fine to have a stretch goal but it needs to be grounded in reality and those CAFE standards weren't, nor was the California pipe dream of trying to mandate Zero Emission Vehicle adoption rates by government fiat.