Landlord won't give our security deposit back.

[Cattlegod]

Situation: We paid through October 1st for rent. We moved out Sept 15th and spent the last two weeks cleaning the place while it was vacant. When I requested the latest status on the security deposit the last time (back in Nov), the wife said they were just waiting for the last water bill and they would send us the difference without mention of any other deductions.

Today, we sent this follow-up note and we get this response:

Sent:
" Any update on the status of [renters] $925.00 security deposit from [address]? Please advise, thanks."

Repsonse:
"Would you like for me to send you a list of all I had to repair? The house was left filthy and w/damage."

Our next response:
"Please let us know what repairs were necessary and the cost associated with each item. [renter] spoke with [landloard] back in November and she did not mention any specifics. Thanks."

We lived there for about 2.5 years, so there was a little wear and tear on the floors from normal walking and chairs. Also the filthy comment is crap, they came in BEFORE our lease was up to clean the house. We went in there at the end of Sept to clean house and they had already done most of it. It is not our fault they came in a week prior from when we had planned on mopping, washing, and vacuuming. The only thing they could get us for is a small dent in one of the walls, that sure as hell doesn't cost $925.

From what I can tell, they have to provide an itemized list within 45 days with totals to us. It has been over 90 days now. In addition, from what I can tell, we have followed everything that we needed to do from a renters perspective according to Michigan law:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/...me=mcl-act-348-of-1972

Also, hiring a lawyer is probably not the way we will go, because that will blow out any potential benefit. Just curious what ATOT thinks.

Update 1/3/08

So we just got the "list" from our landlord. Though, I'm not sure how much good it does them because they are out of the 45 days.

1 LIVING ROOM PATCH HOLES AND PAINT $450.00
2 LIVING ROOM AND RIGHT BEDROOM SAND AND REFINISH FLOORS $450.00
3 RIGHT BEDROOM REPAIR HOLE AND REPAINT ROOM $350.00
4 HALLWAY REPAIR HOLE AND REPAINT HALL $135.00
5 LIVING ROOM (SIDE) WINDOW REGLAZE $65.00
6 FLOWER BEDS 4-5 HOURS WEEDING AND REGROOMING $185.00
7 MISC HOUSE SCRUB, STOVE, REFRIDGERATOR, BASEBOARDS, FLOORS
8 BEDROOMS WALLS HAD DRIPPINGS ALL OVER THEM AND NEEDED TO BE SCRUBBED BEFORE PAINTING. $100.00
9 MISC HOUSE NEEDED TO REPLACE BLINDS WHERE THEY HAD BEEN TAKEN DOWN BECAUSE BRACKETS COULD NOT BE FOUND. $50.00

Total of 1785. lmao. This guy is crazy. First off the only patch that was needed was the living room, and that is about 15 mins and 5 dollars in spackle.

So, what we were thinking about doing is sending him a reply something along the lines of this:

-------------------------------------
Thanks for your note, but according to the Landlord - Tenant Act Section 554.613 Section 13, Paragraph 1, you were required to send an itemized list of damages within 45 days. Because you have not done this, Paragraph 2 states:

"This section does not prejudice a landlord's right to retain any security deposit funds as satisfaction or partial satisfaction of a money judgment obtained pursuant to summary proceedings filed pursuant to chapter 57 of Act No. 236 of the Public Acts of 1961, as amended, being sections 600.5701 to 600.5759 of the Compiled Laws of 1948 or other proceedings at law. Failure of the landlord to comply fully with this section constitutes waiver of all claimed damages and makes him liable to the tenant for double the amount of the security deposit retained."

We can settle outside of small claims court for the total sum of 617, or 2/3s of the original security deposit amount or we will pursue the full $1,850 you are liable for in small claims court to settle this quickly.

---------------------------------------

So, ATOT, what do you think about the response? This isn't exactly how we will state it, but it gets the general point across. Would I breaking the law by saying that we will take 2/3s of the security deposit outside of court or we will bring them into court? Would it be prudent to include comments about their ridiculous monetary sums (like paying for them to weed the damned flowerbed!)? Or should we not even touch on it because it isn't relevant to their violation and would have no impact on judgment?

Update 1/8/08

In an event to get confirmation that he will not give any of our security deposit back(he never specifically said that he will not be giving it back), we thought the next course of action should be to get written evidence from him that he will not be giving our security deposit back. Here is our reply to the note containing the list of items above, I will update as soon as we get a response.

Mr. and Mrs. [Landlord]:

We have reviewed the list you provided detailing the costs associated with repairs and home improvements to the house we formerly leased at [address]. We are curious as to why we were not informed of any charges sooner if you had intended to keep any portion of our security deposit. We wrote to you on 11/2/2007 requesting the status of our security deposit. Carrie replied that when the final water bill was received, the water bill would be deducted from the security deposit and then given to us. We were not notified of any intention to keep any additional amount of the security deposit above and beyond the water bill until we requested a status update of our security deposit again on 1/3/2008. Do you intend to keep any portion of our security deposit outside of the final water bill during the term of our residence? Please respond by the end of the week so we can resolve this soon.

 

[Miramonti]

You'd kick their @ss in a heartbeat in small claims court.

 

[Deeko]

When we moved out of our old apartment, the landlord tried to deduct about $300 from our security deposit for cleaning expenses. Considering A) the place was VERY clean, B) it was a horrible mess when we moved in and C) they never gave us move in/move out forms, I took it to the owner and got the charges removed.

 

[iamwiz82]

Did you take pics after you cleaned up the place?

 

[1sikbITCH]

Pay the $40 or whatever it costs to file suit in small claims court and present your case to the judge. Unless they file a counterclaim for more damages (and win), the worst that can happen is you are out $40 more and you learn some stuff.

 

[KK]

I'm sure if you went the lawyer way, that you could add in lawyer fees. Of course, small claims would probably be the best route.

 

[PingSpike]

Sounds like MI has a similar law to vermont. Here, if they don't send you an itemized list of all the damages/deductions within 14 days, they forfeit their right to the security deposit money.

Unfortunately, you'll probably have to sue them in small claims court.

 

[Cattlegod]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
Did you take pics after you cleaned up the place?

I can't remember, I think I did just in case this happened. I'll have to check when I get home.

 

[Miramonti]

"Would you like for me to send you a list of all I had to repair? The house was left filthy and w/damage."

Did you leave them a forwarding address? (they didn't state they tried to give you notice of the repairs, so it sure looks like you did.)

This is their downfall...you don't have to authorize them to send you an itemization before the 30-45 day deadline, they are required by law to do so if they do not return you deposit.

Also, make sure that you reply to them promptly (3-7 days?), acknowledging your disagreement with their response, in accordance with the michigan statutes that you linked.

 

[yuppiejr]

This is why you always reduce the amount of your damage deposit from your last months' rent check and take plenty of pictures before you move out. You may end up writing a check later for legitimate damages but, in my experience, leaving a damage deposit with a landlord always leads to shenanigans when the refund comes due.

 

[Cattlegod]

Originally posted by: jjsole

"Would you like for me to send you a list of all I had to repair? The house was left filthy and w/damage."

Did you leave them a forwarding address? (they didn't state they tried to give you notice of the repairs, so it sure looks like you did.)

This is their downfall...you don't have to authorize them to send you an itemization before the 30-45 day deadline, they are required by law to do so if they do not return you deposit.

Also, make sure that you reply to them promptly (3-7 days?), acknowledging your disagreement with their response, in accordance with the michigan statutes that you linked.

yes, we gave them our forwarding address well in advance of our move out date.

To some of the more savvy with law interpretation out there: does this mean that if I haven't received an itemized list by the deadline, they forfeit the total security deposit even if they are entitled to a small portion of it?

 

[RightIsWrong]

You don't need a lawyer. It will cost you more money in the end. Just take him to small claims court In most states, it is a $35 filing fee and no lawyers allowed so if he is an idiot you should be able to talk circles around him.

If you were smart, you followed rule #1 of vacating a rental....DOCUMENT AND TAKE PICTURES OF EVERYTHING! If you don't have pics, then it is going to come down to a he said/we said fight. Normal wear and tear (carpeting/paint) are covered under the statute that you posted:

Sec. 7.

A security deposit may be used only for the following purposes:

(a) Reimburse the landlord for actual damages to the rental unit or any ancillary facility that are the direct result of conduct not reasonably expected in the normal course of habitation of a dwelling.

As for the cleaning, if they came into your apartment while you were still under a leasing agreement with them (before the end of the month that you paid through) you don't have grounds for legal action unless it was specifically stated in the lease that they can enter at any time because Michigan is a one of a number of states that don't have a specific law. However, you can use that to your advantage when/if you take it to SCC.

Landlords always have the right to inspect their rentals. Most states require a specific notice prior to entry. It is unlawful for a Landlord to enter without consensus, unless there is an emergency or hazard. Documented illegal activity may warrant inspection without notice. The most common reasons for entry are: Repairs, Drug Activity, Real Estate Dealings, City Inspectors, and/or Adherence to House Rules.

Also, according to this section:

554.613 Action for damages; retention of security deposit; waiver.

Sec. 13.

(1) Within 45 days after termination of the occupancy and not thereafter the landlord may commence an action in a court of competent jurisdiction for a money judgment for damages which he has claimed or in lieu thereof return the balance of the security deposit held by him to the tenant or any amount mutually agreed upon in writing by the parties. A landlord shall not be entitled to retain any portion of a security deposit for damages claimed unless he has first obtained a money judgment for the disputed amount or filed with the court satisfactory proof of an inability to obtain service on the tenant or unless:

(a) The tenant has failed to provide a forwarding address as required by section 11. (Sounds like you did do this but I'm not certain)

(b) The tenant has failed to respond to the notice of damages as required by section 12. (You are claiming that he never sent one so this is N/A)

(c) The parties have agreed in writing to the disposition of the balance of the deposit claimed by the landlord. (From your claim to have requested the deposit back, I'm going to assume that you didn't comply with any written agreement to allow him to keep the money)

(d) The amount claimed is entirely based upon accrued and unpaid rent equal to the actual rent for any full rental period or portion thereof during which the tenant has had actual or constructive possession of the premises. (You have claimed to have paid the rent through the end of the month so it doesn't sound like you were behind making this condition N/A)

(2) This section does not prejudice a landlord's right to retain any security deposit funds as satisfaction or partial satisfaction of a money judgment obtained pursuant to summary proceedings filed pursuant to chapter 57 of Act No. 236 of the Public Acts of 1961, as amended, being sections 600.5701 to 600.5759 of the Compiled Laws of 1948 or other proceedings at law. Failure of the landlord to comply fully with this section constitutes waiver of all claimed damages and makes him liable to the tenant for double the amount of the security deposit retained.

If you do take him to small claims court and can convince the judge/JoP that you are not negligent....he owes you double. Be careful to make sure that you have a pretty strong argument though....if you lose you end up with a judgment against you (even though he already has the money) and it dings (read: smacks upside the head violently) your credit score for years.

 

[tomywishbone]

Cill your landlord.

Edit: Cill your landlord

Watch dog bark on a hot summer night,
kill my landlord, kill my landlord,
watch dog bark, though he bite,
kill my landlord, kill my landlord,
slip in his window, break his neck,
then his house I start to wreck,
got no reason, what the heck!
kill my landlord, kill my landlord,
C-I-L-L my landlord.

 

[purbeast0]

man i had something similar to this happen when i rented a place at the beach although we didn't have to give a security deposit, but she tried to make stuff up and requested we send her money. they made all these claims about what we did to the place and how it was a mess after we left it spotless.

she told us how her cleaning lady found all this mess and all this other crap.

the funny thing is, when we were there, we found hair on our bed spreads, a freaking used dirty diaper under the master bed, there was water leaking in the front door during the rain storm (we went during hurricane ivan), stains on the carpet that were there before we even arrived, and some other crap i can't even remember.

 

[Gibson486]

I had this hppen to me. I just moved out of my old apartment. the management yelled at me for not cleaning up. I just responded..."WTF are you talking about"? I cleaned and even spackled all the cracks and repainted the rooms. I called the new tenant on the spot. The managemnt then took the phone and started asking the new tenant questions. the new tenant was just a sack of crap.

 

[gsellis]

I found this link through Clark Howard (www.clarkhoward.com).

Clark's links

Findlaw Tenant's section

Some useful links to help you move forward.

 

[Phokus]

marked (in case i'm in a similar situation)

 

[Modeps]

Shady landlords love doing this. I know two friends that had it happen to them... They just assume that you're not going to have the sand or the time to continue through to sue them... plus, without photographic evidence, its just word vs word.

 

[BoomerD]

Kill him. Hold his body for ransom...


Seriously, you have legal recourse, but it may cost you more to win the case.
We've been lucky over the years. We've had honest landlords who only deducted legitimate costs.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: jjsole
You'd kick their @ss in a heartbeat in small claims court.

Yep from my experience as a former Property Manager, Small Claims Court will always rules in the tenants favor in situations like this.

 

[Injury]

Your first mistake was not going through the house with the landlord the day you turned the keys over, but in most states if the list is not provided to you (without having to go find it!) within a certain time frame, 100% of the deposit is due back with NO chance for the landlord to take away for ANYTHING, even if the place is trashed.

 

[razor2025]

Originally posted by: Modeps
Shady landlords love doing this. I know two friends that had it happen to them... They just assume that you're not going to have the sand or the time to continue through to sue them... plus, without photographic evidence, its just word vs word.

Digital camera is so cheap nowadays (storage almost approaching free), I would always take pictures of things I rent/borrow/send out(selling).

Also, cellphone camera has advanced pretty far from their cheapo-webcam days. Anyone with 2mp+ camera phone can easily take some pics and MMS to themselves for records.

 

[Cattlegod]

Thanks for the help guys! This info is great. I will be sure to update this thread as new items unfold.

 

[Cattlegod]

bump for update

Update 1/3/08

So we just got the "list" from our landlord. Though, I'm not sure how much good it does them because they are out of the 45 days.

1 LIVING ROOM PATCH HOLES AND PAINT $450.00
2 LIVING ROOM AND RIGHT BEDROOM SAND AND REFINISH FLOORS $450.00
3 RIGHT BEDROOM REPAIR HOLE AND REPAINT ROOM $350.00
4 HALLWAY REPAIR HOLE AND REPAINT HALL $135.00
5 LIVING ROOM (SIDE) WINDOW REGLAZE $65.00
6 FLOWER BEDS 4-5 HOURS WEEDING AND REGROOMING $185.00
7 MISC HOUSE SCRUB, STOVE, REFRIDGERATOR, BASEBOARDS, FLOORS
8 BEDROOMS WALLS HAD DRIPPINGS ALL OVER THEM AND NEEDED TO BE SCRUBBED BEFORE PAINTING. $100.00
9 MISC HOUSE NEEDED TO REPLACE BLINDS WHERE THEY HAD BEEN TAKEN DOWN BECAUSE BRACKETS COULD NOT BE FOUND. $50.00

Total of 1785. lmao. This guy is crazy. First off the only patch that was needed was the living room, and that is about 15 mins and 5 dollars in spackle.

So, what we were thinking about doing is sending him a reply something along the lines of this:

-------------------------------------
Thanks for your note, but according to the Landlord - Tenant Act Section 554.613 Section 13, Paragraph 1, you were required to send an itemized list of damages within 45 days. Because you have not done this, Paragraph 2 states:

"This section does not prejudice a landlord's right to retain any security deposit funds as satisfaction or partial satisfaction of a money judgment obtained pursuant to summary proceedings filed pursuant to chapter 57 of Act No. 236 of the Public Acts of 1961, as amended, being sections 600.5701 to 600.5759 of the Compiled Laws of 1948 or other proceedings at law. Failure of the landlord to comply fully with this section constitutes waiver of all claimed damages and makes him liable to the tenant for double the amount of the security deposit retained."

We can settle outside of small claims court for the total sum of 617, or 2/3s of the original security deposit amount or we will pursue the full $1,850 you are liable for in small claims court to settle this quickly.

---------------------------------------

So, ATOT, what do you think about the response? This isn't exactly how we will state it, but it gets the general point across. Would I breaking the law by saying that we will take 2/3s of the security deposit outside of court or we will bring them into court? Would it be prudent to include comments about their ridiculous monetary sums (like paying for them to weed the damned flowerbed!)? Or should we not even touch on it because it isn't relevant to their violation and would have no impact on judgment?

 

[tailes151]

I'm no lawyer so my opinion probably means nothing, but I would not tell him that you would accept 2/3rds of the deposit. That makes you look like you are assuming some of the damages. If he ended up taking that letter to small claims, it could come back to bite you.