Lamar Alexander to Barack Obama: Please, no 'enemies list'

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Another espresso break, another chapter put to bed. I steel myself. Time to read the news, time to check out AT P&N. Yup, more name calling and more call outs. More partisanship and less intelligent debate. Ad hominem attacks, check.

Yet in some places amongst the drivel, I am overjoyed to read rational commentary and I note there are a few here that overcome the partisanship to engage in rational discourse.

The Obama Administration is indulging in the same kind of "us vs them," aren't they? The call outs against the banks, insurance industry, Fox News, individual commentators, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the list goes on and on, seems to be a new one every day.

Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn) is familiar with this kind of politics. He started his political career in the Nixon White House. And he sees the Obama Administration heading down that very same road.

I found his thoughts and his references to a history he knows all too well to be spot on in the following article. It is actually extraordinary to read this gentleman's caution.

Like P&N, this White House is unlikely to change either the tone or the tenor of its attacks, and many here will continue to join them and rejoice in each attack against fellow Americans. But as sorely disappointed I may be that so many threads wind up being name calling exercises, I also expect many Americans will tire of the designation of more and more Americans as enemies with the ensuing political attacks and marginalizing and will continue to Hope for a Change that seems ever more unlikely to come.

Lamar Alexander to Barack Obama: No 'enemies list'

Alexander to Obama: No 'enemies list'

By: Mike Allen
POLITICO
October 21, 2009 10:01 AM EST

Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.) accused the White House on Wednesday of "street-brawling" with opponents, and said the West Wing's strategy of freezing out opponents amounts to a latter-day "enemies list," a reference to an infamous practice of President Richard Nixon.

"An 'enemies list' only denigrates the Presidency and the Republic itself," Alexander said on the Senate floor. "These are unusually difficult times, with plenty of forces encouraging us to disagree. Let?s not start calling people out and compiling an enemies list. Let?s push the street-brawling out of the White House and work together on the truly presidential issues: creating jobs, reducing health care costs, reducing the debt, creating clean energy."

Alexander quoted from a POLITICO article headlined "White House plan: Neuter the Chamber."

"According to Politico," Alexander said, "the White House plans to 'neuter the United States Chamber of Commerce," an organization with members in almost every major community in America. The Chamber had supported the president?s stimulus package and some of his early appointments, but has problems with his health care and climate change proposals."

Here is the full text of Alexander's prepared remarks:

In 1969 and during the first half of 1970, I was a wet-behind-the-ears, 29-year-old staff aide in the West Wing of the Nixon White House. I was working for the wisest man in that White House, Bryce Harlow, who was a friend of President Johnson, as well as the favorite staff member of President Eisenhower, and President Nixon?s first appointee.

Based upon that experience and my forty years since then in and out of public life, I want to make what I hope will be taken as a friendly suggestion to President Obama and his White House: don?t create an enemies list.

As I was leaving the White House in 1970, Mr. Harlow was heading out on the campaign plane with Vice President Spiro Agnew whose job was to vilify Democrats and to help elect Republicans. The Vice President had the help of talented young speechwriters, the late Bill Safire and Pat Buchanan. In Memphis, he called Albert Gore, Sr., the ?southern regional chairman of the eastern liberal establishment.? He labeled the increasingly critical news media, ?nattering nabobs of negativism.?

Those phrases have become part of our political lore. They began playfully enough, in the back and forth of political election combat. After I had come home to Tennessee, they escalated into something more. They eventually emerged into the Nixon enemies list.

In 1971 Chuck Colson, who was then a member of President Nixon?s staff and today is admired for his decades of selfless work in prison reform, presented a list of what he called ?persons known to be active in their opposition to our Administration.? He said he thought the administration should ?maximize our incumbency . . . [or] to put it more bluntly, . . . use the available federal machinery to screw our political enemies.? On that list of 20 people were people like CBS correspondent Daniel Schorr, Washington Star columnist Mary McGrory, Leonard Woodcock, the head of the United Auto Workers, John Conyers, the Democratic Congressman from Michigan, Edwin Guthman, managing editor of the Los Angeles Times, and several prominent businessmen such as Howard Stein, of the Dreyfus Corporation and Arnold Picker, vice president of United Artists. The New York Times and the Washington Post were made out to be enemies of the Republic.

Now make no mistake, politics was not such a gentlemanly affair in those days either. After Barry Goldwater had won the Presidential nomination in 1964, Daniel Schorr had told CBS viewers that Goldwater had ? quote ? ?travel[led] to Germany to join-up with the right wing there? and ? quote ?visit[ed] Hitler?s old stomping ground.? ? unquote. Schorr later corrected that on the air.

What was different about Colson?s effort, though, was the open declaration of war upon anyone who seemed to disagree with administration policies. Colson later expanded his list to include hundreds of people, including Joe Namath, John Lennon, Carol Channing, Gregory Peck, The St. Louis Post-Dispatch, the Congressional Black Caucus, Alabama Governor George Wallace. All this came out during the Watergate hearings. You could see an administration spiraling downwards. And, of course, we all know where that led.

Now the only reason I mention this is because I have an uneasy feeling, only ten months into this new administration, that we?re beginning to see symptoms of this same kind of animus developing in the Obama administration.

According to Politico, the White House plans to ?neuter the United States Chamber of Commerce,? an organization with members in almost every major community in America. The Chamber had supported the President?s stimulus package and some of his early appointments, but has problems with his health care and climate change proposals.

The Department of Health and Human Services imposed a gag order on a large health care company, Humana, who had warned its Medicare Advantage customers that their benefits might be reduced in Democratic health care reform proposals?a piece of information that is perfectly true. This gag order was lifted only after the Republican leader, Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, said he would block any future nominees to the Department until the matter was righted.

The White House Communications director recently announced that the administration would treat a major television network, Fox News, as ?part of the Opposition.? On Sunday White House officials were all over talk shows urging other news organizations to ?boycott? Fox and not pick up any of its stories. Those stories, for example, would include the video that two amateur filmmakers made of ACORN representatives explaining how to open a brothel. That?s a story other media managed to ignore until almost a week later when Congress decided to cut ACORN?s funding.

The President has not stopped blaming banks and investment houses for the financial meltdown even as it has become clear that Congress played a huge role, too, by encouraging Americans to borrow money for houses they couldn?t afford.

He was ?taking names? of bondholders who resisted the GM and Chrysler bailouts.

Insurance companies, once the allies of the Obama health care proposal, have suddenly become the source of all our health care problems?because they pointed out, again correctly, that if Congress taxes insurance premiums and restricts coverage to those who are sicker and older, the cost of premiums for millions of Americans is likely to go up instead of down.

Because of that insubordination, the President and his allies have threatened to take away the insurance companies antitrust exemption.

Even those of us in Congress have found ourselves in the crosshairs:

The assistant Republican leader, Sen. John Kyl of Arizona, said to ABC?s George Stephanopoulos that the stimulus plan wasn?t working. The White House wrote the governor of Arizona and said, ?If you don?t want the money, we won?t send it.? Sen. McCain said that this could be perceived as a threat to the people of Arizona.

Sen. Bennett of Utah and Sen. Collins and I as well as Democratic Senators Byrd and Feingold all have questioned the number and power of the 18 new White House czars who are not confirmed by the Senate and have suggested that is a threat to constitutional checks and balances. The White House refused to send anyone to testify at congressional hearings. Sen. Bennet and I found ourselves ?called out? on the White House blog by the President?s communications director, Anita Dunn.

Even the president, in his address to Congress on health care, threatened to ?call out? members of congress who disagreed with him.

This behavior is typical of street brawls and political campaign consultants. It is a mistake for the President of the United States and the White House staff.

If the President and his top aides treat people with different views as enemies instead of listening to what they have to say, they?re likely to end up with a narrow view and a feeling that the whole world is out to get them. And as those of use who served in the Nixon administration know, that can get you into a lot of trouble.

This administration is only ten months old. It?s not too late to take a different approach ? both at the White House and here in the Congress.

Here is one opportunity. At the beginning of this year, shortly after the President?s inauguration, the Republican leader, Sen. McConnell, addressed the National Press Club. He proposed that he and the President work together to make social security solvent. He said that he would make sure the President got more support in that effort from Republicans than President George W. Bush got from Democrats when he tried to solve the same problem. President Obama held a summit on the dangers of the runaway costs of entitlements which I attended. Every expert there said making social security solvent was essential to our country?s fiscal stability. There is still time to get that done.

On clean energy, Republicans have put forward four ideas: build 100 nuclear plants in 20 years, electrify half our cars and trucks in 20 years, explore offshore for low-carbon natural gas and for oil, and double energy research and development for alternative fuels. The administration agrees with this on electric cars and research and development. We may not be far apart on offshore exploration. And, at his town meeting in New Orleans last week, the President said the United States would be ?stupid? not to use nuclear power. He is right, since nuclear reactors produce 70% of our carbon free electricity. So why don?t we work together on this lower-cost way to address clean energy and climate change instead of enacting a national energy tax?

On health care, the White House idea of bipartisanship has been akin to that of a marksman at the state fair shooting gallery: hit one target and you win the prize. With such big Democratic congressional majorities, the White House figures all it needs to do is unify the Democrats and pick off one or two Republicans.

That strategy may win the prize but lose the country. Usually, on complex issues, the President needs bipartisan support in Congress to reassure and achieve broad and lasting support in the country. In 1968 I can remember when President Johnson, with bigger majorities in Congress than President Obama has today, arranged for the Civil Rights Bill to be written in open sessions over several weeks in the office of the Republican leader, Everett Dirksen. Dirksen got some of the credit; Johnson got the legislation he wanted; the country went along with it. Instead of comprehensive health care that raises premiums and increases the debt, why should the White House not work with Republicans step by step to reduce health care costs, and then, as we can afford it, reduce the number of Americans who don?t have access to health care?

The President and his Education Secretary Arne Duncan have been courageous? there is no better word for it? in advocating paying teachers more for teaching well and expanding the number of charter schools. These ideas are the Holy Grail for school reform. They are also ideas that are anathema to the labor unions who support the President. President Obama?s advocacy of master teachers and charter schools could be the domestic of equivalent of President Nixon going to China. I, among others, admire his advocacy and have been doing all I can help him.

Having once been there, I can understand how those in the White House feel oppressed by those with whom they disagree, how they feel besieged by some of the media. I hope the current White House occupants will understand that this is nothing new in American politics?all the way back to the days when John Adams and Thomas Jefferson exchanged insults. The only thing new is that there are today multiple media outlets reporting and encouraging the insults 24 hours a day.

As any veteran of the Nixon White House can attest, we?ve been down this road before and it won?t end well. An ?enemies list? only denigrates the Presidency and the Republic itself.

Forty years ago, Bryce Harlow would say to me, ?Now Lamar, remember that our job here is to push all the merely important issues out of the white house so the president can deal with the handful of issues that are truly presidential.? Then he would slip off for a private meeting in the Capitol with Democratic leaders who controlled the congress and usually find a way to enact the president proposals.

Most successful leaders have eventually seen the wisdom of Lord Palmerston, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who said, ?We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies.

The British writer Edward Dicey was once introduced to President Lincoln as ?one of his enemies?. "I did not know I had any enemies,? was the Lincoln?s answer; And Dicey later wrote, ?I can still feel, as I write, the grip of that great boney hand held out to me in token of friendship."

So here?s my point. These are unusually difficult times, with plenty of forces encouraging us to disagree. Let?s not start calling people out and compiling an enemies list. Let?s push the street-brawling out of the White House and work together on the truly presidential issues: creating jobs, reducing health care costs, reducing the debt, creating clean energy.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,427
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So here?s my point. These are unusually difficult times, with plenty of forces encouraging us to disagree. Let?s not start calling people out and compiling an enemies list. Let?s push the street-brawling out of the White House and work together on the truly presidential issues: creating jobs, reducing health care costs, reducing the debt, creating clean energy.

Civility? Not when there is a cancer that must be purged, as Moonbeam so aptly states. Who am I to disagree?
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
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I've always liked Lamar Alexander. There is some pandering here for sure but nevertheless Obama may be wise to listen.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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lol. Obama is a failure in many ways in my mind, but by NO means is this even remotely equivalent to the Nixon 'enemies list'.

Calling out Fox news publicly as a very real purpose-driven shill for the GOP is not like having an internal document created and expanded for the purposes of destroying said enemies with the use of "tax audits from the IRS, and by manipulating ?grant availability, federal contracts, litigation, prosecution, etc".

Hyperbole on this only makes one look ridiculous.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
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Originally posted by: Arkaign
lol. Obama is a failure in many ways in my mind, but by NO means is this even remotely equivalent to the Nixon 'enemies list'.

Calling out Fox news publicly as a very real purpose-driven shill for the GOP is not like having an internal document created and expanded for the purposes of destroying said enemies with the use of "tax audits from the IRS, and by manipulating ?grant availability, federal contracts, litigation, prosecution, etc".

Hyperbole on this only makes one look ridiculous.

They called Mr Obama a socialist, communist, Nazi, now they are calling him Nixonian.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Nice article...but the fact of the matter is that the horse is already out of the barn. I would think that every President has had some kind of 'enemy list' in one form or another...such is the nature of politics since Day 1. The difference I perceive is that Obama wear's his list on his sleeve and is very aggressive compared to most other presidents. He's obviously not making any efforts to be bipartisan despite his campaign rhetoric of being a uniter...nothing could be further from the truth. Any and all opposition (real or perceived) is attacked, threatened and marginalized as much as possible. His aggression may prove to eventually work against him and the party....time will tell. I personally don't like this style of politics. But these are only the thoughts of a 'poisoned' brain...or so I'm told.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
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Republicans walk thin ice when they bring up memories of Nixon to attack Obama.

Sorry, but the tables could be turned on this dialogue really easy.

Robert Gibbs is probably smacking his lips.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: Arkaign
lol. Obama is a failure in many ways in my mind, but by NO means is this even remotely equivalent to the Nixon 'enemies list'.

Calling out Fox news publicly as a very real purpose-driven shill for the GOP is not like having an internal document created and expanded for the purposes of destroying said enemies with the use of "tax audits from the IRS, and by manipulating ?grant availability, federal contracts, litigation, prosecution, etc".

Hyperbole on this only makes one look ridiculous.
Hmmm...that sounds vaguely familiar...you sure you aren't talking about Clinton?
Clinton Enemies Were Audited
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: Arkaign
lol. Obama is a failure in many ways in my mind, but by NO means is this even remotely equivalent to the Nixon 'enemies list'.

Calling out Fox news publicly as a very real purpose-driven shill for the GOP is not like having an internal document created and expanded for the purposes of destroying said enemies with the use of "tax audits from the IRS, and by manipulating ?grant availability, federal contracts, litigation, prosecution, etc".

Hyperbole on this only makes one look ridiculous.
Hmmm...that sounds vaguely familiar...you sure you aren't talking about Clinton?
Clinton Enemies Were Audited

Could be, politics has been dirty for thousands of years. People also need to remember that in general, the R's and D's who sling a bunch of bullshit around are both whores for the corporatocracy, and sit in the same restaurants with each other around the beltway, laughing all the way to the bank. They're told what to vote for by whomever lobbyist is helping get the biggest checks to them, they don't even bother reading the shit they put their name on.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,824
2,612
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And Ted Kennedy was put on the do-not-fly list by the GWB White House. Face it, when it comes to playing dirty tricks and holding political grudges, the GOP are light years beyond the Dems. It's pathetic that the GOP whines about bipartisanship and getting along when they present a monolithic no vote on almost everything the Administration supports.

I agree with Arkaign-pushing back, and rightfully so, against Fox News as being a defacto mouthpiece for the GOP is merely an acknowledgement of reality, and doesn't come anywhere close to the Nixonian secret enemies list.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: PJABBER
Another espresso break, another chapter put to bed. I steel myself. Time to read the news, time to check out AT P&N. Yup, more name calling and more call outs. More partisanship and less intelligent debate. Ad hominem attacks, check.
You have some serious denial issues. You frequently call people "partisan hacks" and refer to Obama as an "empty suit". You adore Glenn Beck who called the president a racist who has a deep seeded hatred of white people and white culture. But you're the only rational voice in the wilderness. Christ help us.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: Thump553
And Ted Kennedy was put on the do-not-fly list by the GWB White House. Face it, when it comes to playing dirty tricks and holding political grudges, the GOP are light years beyond the Dems. It's pathetic that the GOP whines about bipartisanship and getting along when they present a monolithic no vote on almost everything the Administration supports.

I agree with Arkaign-pushing back, and rightfully so, against Fox News as being a defacto mouthpiece for the GOP is merely an acknowledgement of reality, and doesn't come anywhere close to the Nixonian secret enemies list.
So...this is OK for the Dems to do since the GOP is light years beyond the Dems? I don't get it...but I'll tell you what's pathetic...people who value their particular flavor of partisan ideology above principles of right and wrong. But alas...these are only the thoughts of a 'poisoned' mind or so I'm told. :D

 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Another espresso break, another chapter put to bed. I steel myself. Time to read the news, time to check out AT P&N. Yup, more name calling and more call outs. More partisanship and less intelligent debate. Ad hominem attacks, check.
You have some serious denial issues. You frequently call people "partisan hacks" and refer to Obama as an "empty suit". You adore Glenn Beck who called the president a racist who has a deep seeded hatred of white people and white culture. But you're the only rational voice in the wilderness. Christ help us.

Aren't you an admitted partisan hack? I mean, I do try to see both sides of an issue, find fault with both sides as well as the good, but aren't you knee jerking your way into the far left position on everything you post about? I may be a political iconoclast as well as a classical liberal and a radical progressive, I use all of those descriptive terms in describing myself, but you are a defender of the highly deficient status quo and want advantage only for those who fall into the tiny category of being "useful idiots," like yourself. A term I borrow from Lenin but highly descriptive of the lapdog mentality you exemplify.

Like my use of descriptive phrasing? :laugh:

I do find Obama to be an "empty suit," nothing he has done or said has proven me wrong in this, despite all of the defense mounted in His name. My initial opinion solidifies daily. I shudder at the damage his endorsed programs and diplomatic retrenchments have and will continue to cause this great country and the rest of the world.

I don't know what Beck has called Obama as I have only watched two episodes of his show in total and he stayed strictly on a political analysis. I thought he did a great job on that blackboard of his to show the radical connections that Obama and members of his staff have - do you deny the radical left (Maoist?) commonality that Obama has, as effectively portrayed by Beck, or are you just going to go with the knee-jerk "racist" tag line? I haven't made up my mind, but you most certainly have - is Mao your favorite "philosopher" as well?

By the way - you are "it!"

:D
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Everyone wants the other side to be gentle with them when their party is in the minority, oh but just you wait...
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
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Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Another espresso break, another chapter put to bed. I steel myself. Time to read the news, time to check out AT P&N. Yup, more name calling and more call outs. More partisanship and less intelligent debate. Ad hominem attacks, check.
You have some serious denial issues. You frequently call people "partisan hacks" and refer to Obama as an "empty suit". You adore Glenn Beck who called the president a racist who has a deep seeded hatred of white people and white culture. But you're the only rational voice in the wilderness. Christ help us.

I thought he was fucking nuts but this confirms it ;)
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
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81
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Another espresso break, another chapter put to bed. I steel myself. Time to read the news, time to check out AT P&N. Yup, more name calling and more call outs. More partisanship and less intelligent debate. Ad hominem attacks, check.
I guess you'll need to make your posts less partisan and more intelligent.

As to "name calling," if (for example) you, . . ., er, . . . someone makes a moronic point, it's entirely appropriate to add the address, "you moron."

Finally, as to what you refer to as ad hominem attacks: "Fairness" does not require that all points of view be given equal time or equal consideration. For some points of view, it's entirely appropriate to completely ignore them based on the pedigree of the source. For example, if someone here posted a link to an article that purported to prove that the holocaust never occurred, it would be entirely appropriate to note that the article was written by a notorious holocaust denier (as opposed to a respected historian), and to therefore (1) show the pedigree of the author of the article, and (2) ignore the article.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled partisan bickering.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Another espresso break, another chapter put to bed. I steel myself. Time to read the news, time to check out AT P&N. Yup, more name calling and more call outs. More partisanship and less intelligent debate. Ad hominem attacks, check.
I guess you'll need to make your posts less partisan and more intelligent.

As to "name calling," if (for example) you, . . ., er, . . . someone makes a moronic point, it's entirely appropriate to add the address, "you moron."

Finally, as to what you refer to as ad hominem attacks: "Fairness" does not require that all points of view be given equal time or equal consideration. For some points of view, it's entirely appropriate to completely ignore them based on the pedigree of the source. For example, if someone here posted a link to an article that purported to prove that the holocaust never occurred, it would be entirely appropriate to note that the article was written by a notorious holocaust denier (as opposed to a respected historian), and to therefore (1) show the pedigree of the author of the article, and (2) ignore the article.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled partisan bickering.

I have no idea what is "fair," the concept does not apply in the world I live in.

I guess you can deny that Lamar Alexander ever said what he did, but is that entirely rational? You can the deny the point he is trying to make, but that would make you a partisan hack. You can deny that Obama et al are going down the road to demonizing any and all opponents, I guess that makes you "unfair"?
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I've always liked Lamar Alexander. There is some pandering here for sure but nevertheless Obama may be wise to listen.

Obama is happy to listen if you seriously want to work out a compromise. Witness the response to Olympia Snowe.

Now, if you're just an obstructionist tool, be prepared to be marginalized. With behavior such as cheering Chicago's loss of the Olympics simply because Obama made an effort to help Chicago, it's become abundantly clear where Republicans stand. Their attitude is that they want Obama to fail, even if the price of that failure hurts the U.S. If Republicans and their minions are treated like enemies it's because they act like enemies.
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: Ausm
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Another espresso break, another chapter put to bed. I steel myself. Time to read the news, time to check out AT P&N. Yup, more name calling and more call outs. More partisanship and less intelligent debate. Ad hominem attacks, check.
You have some serious denial issues. You frequently call people "partisan hacks" and refer to Obama as an "empty suit". You adore Glenn Beck who called the president a racist who has a deep seeded hatred of white people and white culture. But you're the only rational voice in the wilderness. Christ help us.

I thought he was fucking nuts but this confirms it ;)

Another one line ad hominem attack from the master of the inane!
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I've always liked Lamar Alexander. There is some pandering here for sure but nevertheless Obama may be wise to listen.

Obama is happy to listen if you seriously want to work out a compromise. Witness the response to Olympia Snowe.

Now, if you're just an obstructionist tool, be prepared to be marginalized. With behavior such as cheering Chicago's loss of the Olympics simply because Obama made an effort to help Chicago, it's become abundantly clear where Republicans stand. Their attitude is that they want Obama to fail, even if the price of that failure hurts the U.S. If Republicans and their minions are treated like enemies it's because they act like enemies.

Aren't you a perfect example of a minion?
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
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81
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Another espresso break, another chapter put to bed. I steel myself. Time to read the news, time to check out AT P&N. Yup, more name calling and more call outs. More partisanship and less intelligent debate. Ad hominem attacks, check.
I guess you'll need to make your posts less partisan and more intelligent.

As to "name calling," if (for example) you, . . ., er, . . . someone makes a moronic point, it's entirely appropriate to add the address, "you moron."

Finally, as to what you refer to as ad hominem attacks: "Fairness" does not require that all points of view be given equal time or equal consideration. For some points of view, it's entirely appropriate to completely ignore them based on the pedigree of the source. For example, if someone here posted a link to an article that purported to prove that the holocaust never occurred, it would be entirely appropriate to note that the article was written by a notorious holocaust denier (as opposed to a respected historian), and to therefore (1) show the pedigree of the author of the article, and (2) ignore the article.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled partisan bickering.

I have no idea what is "fair," the concept does not apply in the world I live in.

I guess you can deny that Lamar Alexander ever said what he did, but is that entirely rational? You can the deny the point he is trying to make, but that would make you a partisan hack. You can deny that Obama et al are going down the road to demonizing any and all opponents, I guess that makes you "unfair"?

I wasn't responding to Alexander's statement here. I was responding to your prefatory paragraph. My other (second) post addresses Alexander's thesis.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Another espresso break, another chapter put to bed. I steel myself. Time to read the news, time to check out AT P&N. Yup, more name calling and more call outs. More partisanship and less intelligent debate. Ad hominem attacks, check.
I guess you'll need to make your posts less partisan and more intelligent.

As to "name calling," if (for example) you, . . ., er, . . . someone makes a moronic point, it's entirely appropriate to add the address, "you moron."

Finally, as to what you refer to as ad hominem attacks: "Fairness" does not require that all points of view be given equal time or equal consideration. For some points of view, it's entirely appropriate to completely ignore them based on the pedigree of the source. For example, if someone here posted a link to an article that purported to prove that the holocaust never occurred, it would be entirely appropriate to note that the article was written by a notorious holocaust denier (as opposed to a respected historian), and to therefore (1) show the pedigree of the author of the article, and (2) ignore the article.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled partisan bickering.

I have no idea what is "fair," the concept does not apply in the world I live in.

I guess you can deny that Lamar Alexander ever said what he did, but is that entirely rational? You can the deny the point he is trying to make, but that would make you a partisan hack. You can deny that Obama et al are going down the road to demonizing any and all opponents, I guess that makes you "unfair"?

I wasn't responding to Alexander's statement here. I was responding to your prefatory paragraph. My other (second) post addresses Alexander's thesis.

My opening statement is just to set the stage for a tie in with the quoted article. It is literary license and just a tiny bit of a personalization. I did not think it merited any response whatsoever. Alexander's statement, however, does.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
you guys are funny, I don't really agree with most the stuff PJABBER posts, but you guys are hilarious. He posts something he's read gives his opinion on the matter then asks you guys do to the same, INSTEAD of debating the point or talking about the article you resort to just blasting him in the most idiotic ways possible.

PJABBER in response to your post and article, I have to agree with the Congressman. Obama should be trying to be different than previous presidents and not have an enemies list. That's change I can believe in.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Originally posted by: bfdd
you guys are funny, I don't really agree with most the stuff PJABBER posts, but you guys are hilarious. He posts something he's read gives his opinion on the matter then asks you guys do to the same, INSTEAD of debating the point or talking about the article you resort to just blasting him in the most idiotic ways possible.

PJABBER in response to your post and article, I have to agree with the Congressman. Obama should be trying to be different than previous presidents and not have an enemies list. That's change I can believe in.

Hell, I don't always agree with what I post! I just like to explore different topics. If the argument encourages someone to think more deeply, then the discussion has served enough purpose.

I think too many here are trying their darnedest to convince the small group of participants to adopt positions exactly opposite to what they believe. Good luck with that and the marginal brownie points you will earn for the attempt. After all, what do people say of the liberals, they accept rewards for attempts and intentions, not results?

I started off here a couple of months ago as pretty much of a centrist. The opposition and the stratified position taking has really made me come to think the opposite of what the leftish advocate. I can't imagine they are convincing anyone else with the constant diatribes and poorly crafted arguments. I guess I just don't have respect for weak arguments.