Lack of decent micro ATX motherboards

[Zap]

Trying to find micro ATX motherboards (and cases) and finding... not much of a selection beyond various choices using integrated video. I'd think micro ATX would be great for LAN boxes. Anyways, besides the Asus P4S333-M, what other choices are there?

 

[verytasty]

Dude I hear you. I went through the same crap too. After an exhaustive 2 weeks of research, I gave up. There simply isn't a Micro-ATX board with the features that I needed. I settled for an ATX board and a big-a@@ case. I was hoping to an ultra-small, compact computer, but guess not.

 

[FelixDeCat]

You know its funny, as of TODAY - Im in the market. Im trying to build a small, cheap, compact system. I have a compaq box/ps, 8432cdrw, 256mb pc133 and I need the rest. Only an matx will fit in there.

The best I could find was a $35 board from Chaintech, the 7AIA5E. Built in sound and video. Hope it works, might order it soon if everything falls into place.

 

[Peter]

Elitegroup/PC-Chips have lots and lots of MicroATX boards, many flavors, especially with onboard everything, but also "everything but the VGA".

www.pcchips.com.tw

regards, Peter

 

[DaveSimmons]

for P4 there's always intel, for P3 Asus makes via and i815 mATX mobos.

Unfortunately gamers/LAN parties isn't a big enough market to attract major development effort most mATX are developed and sold to OEMs for cheap all-in-one systems.

 

[cherrytwist]

I've had good luck with my FIC AZ31.

It's a bit dated, but for a decent rig that doesn't require overclocking or mad benchmarks, it's fine.

I decided to go with a bigger case and faster processor, but worked great for watching DVDs and surfing. Even some games that aren't resource hogs.

 

[ChrisADuffy]

I got one of these Chaintec 7SID AND This Micro Atx case - put a 1.33 T bird and a geforce 3 ti 200 inside and it plays games like no tomorrow (great). Cool thing is the case has a handle already and it is very solid, also the case takes a regular size atx psu.

 

[ChrisADuffy]

This abit seems cool and it is Sold at Directron.

 

[mudboy]

Yeah, I know what you mean, I've decided to reduce my 2 systems (one full ATX, Palo Alto PA-810, Shuttle AK31 r3, etc, the other a MicroATX box I use for "testing") into one (I don't use my "spare box" very much). So, I decided to build up a really sweet MicroATX rig starting with an Aluminum front Coolermaster ATC600. The remainder of the components (except for the video card) I'm going to scavenge from my other 2 systems, but finding a GREAT MicroATX motherboard has been a real bitch, especially in a current high performance chipset, and especially if you want to go Socket A. Gigabyte makes a KM266 board, Abit makes the NV7M, and Asus makes a 220d NForce board. Other than that, finding Socket A/DDR is pretty tough (other than the Chaintech 7SID, which I had a bad experience with once). It's so bad, in fact, that I've decided to start building a MicroATX/small form factor component database web site just so those of us who like smaller systems can have an easier time finding what we're after.

Pete

 

[ChrisADuffy]

looking foward to that database, sounds cool.

 

[BadBrad]

Take a look at the newly released Epox 8KMM+ that is based on the VIA KM266 chipset. Micro ATX, Onboard Pro Savage 8 video, Onboard Realtek LAN, Onboard AC-97 sound, 2 PC2100 DIMM slots (2GB max). $85 + shipping @ Newegg. I've had great luck with Epox for my own systems but was using the MSI KM133 based boards for client econo systems in the past. I will give this new board a shot next time.

 

[lsman]

if u need a small foot print computer, you should go for a flex-ATX format
asus P4
they are really small
For case, search micro atx at case forum and see links for flex-ATX format.

for AMD, not much luck.

 

[Zap]

mudboy, any progress on that database? Do you plan to include all boards or just "enthusiast" (newest chipsets, AGP slot, no integrated video, faster-than-PC133) boards? What kind of information do you intend to list? I'd say board brand/model, manufacturer's URL, chipset/socket, slots, features. Here's a few for you to chew on:

Asus P4S333-M
http://usa.asus.com/mb/socket478/p4s333-m/overview.htm
-SiS 645 chipset, socket 478
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI
-AC'97 sound (optional?), SPDIF (optional?), SiS LAN (optional?), smart card reader (optional?), DDR333

Asus P4B266-M
http://usa.asus.com/mb/socket478/p4b266-m/overview.htm
-Intel 845D chipset, socket 478
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI, 1 CNR
-AC'97 sound, onboard Realtek 10/100 NIC

Asus P4T-EM
http://usa.asus.com/mb/socket478/p4t-em/overview.htm
-Intel 850 chipset, socket 478
-4 RIMM, 1 AGP, 2 PCI, 1 CNR
-AC'97 sound (optional?), SPDIF (optional?), Intel LAN (optional?), smart card reader (optional?), RDRAM

Asus A7V266-M
http://usa.asus.com/mb/socketa/a7v266-m/overview.htm
-VIA KT266A chipset, socket A
-3 DDR, 1 AGP, 2 PCI
-AC'97 sound (optional?), Realtek LAN (optional?)

Abit BD7m
http://www.abit-usa.com/eng/product/mb/bd7m.htm
-Intel 845D chipset, socket 478
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI, 1 CNR
-AC'97 sound, onboard Intel 10/100 NIC, non-standard port layout

EPoX EP-4BDM+
http://www.epox.com/html/english/products/motherboard/ep-4bdm+.htm
-Intel 845D chipset, socket 478
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI
-AC'97 sound, onboard Realtek 10/100 NIC

EPoX EP-8KHM
http://www.epox.com/html/english/products/motherboard/ep-8khm.htm
-VIA KT266A chipset, socket A
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI
-AC'97 sound

Chaintech 9BID
http://www.chaintechusa.com/Products/Socket478/9bid.htm
-Intel 845D chipset, socket 478
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI, 1 CNR
-AC'97 sound

Chaintech 9SIL2
http://www.chaintechusa.com/Products/socket478/9SIL2.htm
-SiS 645 chipset, socket 478
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI
-AC'97 sound, onboard Realtek 10/100 NIC, smart card reader (optional?)

Chaintech 7SID
http://www.chaintechusa.com/Products/socketa/7sid.htm
-SiS 735 chipset, socket A
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI, 1 CNR
-AC'97 sound

ECS P4IBMD
http://www.ecsusa.com/ecsusa/www.ecs.com.tw/products/p4ibmd.htm
-Intel 845D chipset, socket 478
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI, 1 CNR
-AC'97 sound, onboard Realtek 10/100 NIC (optional?)

ECS L4S5M
http://www.ecsusa.com/ecsusa/www.ecs.com.tw/products/l4s5m.htm
-SiS 645 chipset, socket 478
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI, 1 CNR
-AC'97 sound, onboard Realtek 10/100 NIC (optional?), non-standard port layout

Besides not being too plentiful, the other big problem with micro ATX is that they're difficult to find/purchase. Anyways, if mudboy doesn't get his list going soon, perhaps I will . lsman, Flex ATX may be taking it a bit more to the extreme, but that's an interesting board you linked to. Too bad it uses SDRAM, but you got me poking around the Asus site and I found some other stuff, so thanks. Thanks to ChrisADuffy for info on the Abit board and Chaintech. Thanks to BadBrad for reminding me of EPoX (never used their boards before). Thanks Peter, for suggesting ECS/Pcchips. I went to www.ecsusa.com instead of your link to Pcchips because I feel that ECS boards are easier to come by in the retail channel than Pcchips.

 

[hardwareguy1241]

WARNING: Stay away from PC-Chips!!!
They have been known in the past to make boards with fake cache chips! (this was in 1995, the heyday of the 486 DX 100, and the 5x86)

The mobos based on the VIA Pro Savage KM 266 look cool. They usually have an AGP slot (very important ) and around 3 PCI slots.
The Gigabyte mobo has onboard hardware based sound (Creative PCI 128).

You could make some fast, but small Athlon rigs out of these.

 

[mudboy]

I finished the database design last night and am working on the interfaces now, will probably take a week or so to finish the coding for the component database.

The tables are:

tblComponents; with manufacturer, component type, name, model number, url, and a load of component fields like PS wattage, PCI slots, onboard peripherals, and the ever-popular "miscellaneous" This should be flexible to keep track of everything from half-height cards to cases to power supplies to motherboards, all small form factor, of course.

tblComponentTypes; component name, i.e. motherboard, case, etc.

tblCPU; keeps track of CPU interfaces (socket A, socket 370, etc.) for a relationship with tblComponents

tblFormFactor; keeps track of form factors, i.e. microatx, itx, nlx, etc.

tblManufacturers; has manufacturer information like name, url, contact info

tblReviews; has component reviews (both user reviews and editorial reviews, though it will be a while before I can do editorial review).

Generally, I build community-driven sites where users add information for the benefit of themselves and others. It's an idea that works well and gets the best response.

If there are any advanced Cold Fusion (5.0, using a *cough*access*cough* database) developers in the audience who want to help with some of the coding, give me a shout. I'm no slouch, but I've got a day job and a family so I can't crank out the code as fast as I would like. Otherwise, I'll work on it and test it, and when I'm done I'll unleash it to AnandTech and Ars Technica users first (sorry, guys, I spend more time there than here, nothing personal). I've got a couple of places that are interested in sponsoring the site once it's up, so we shall see. I definitely think there's a niche to be filled in the small form factor area, I know that it will continue to gain in popularity.

Thanks (and good night),

Pete

 

[ChrisADuffy]

This database sounds cool, maybe we can review the boards and post on the site.

 

[Zap]

There simply isn't a Micro-ATX board with the features that I needed. I settled for an ATX board and a big-a@@ case. I was hoping to an ultra-small, compact computer, but guess not.

verytasty, your solution would be to get an ultra-small case that can handle a regular ATX motherboard. Many micro ATX cases have the power supply over the motherboard (when the tower is upright). You can get an ATX case that has the power supply to the side of the motherboard. This is not good for hot CPUs like the Athlon, or for overclocking, but if you don't need extra ventilation these cases are quite compact. Lemme try some ASCII art to show what I mean.


regular ATX case:
_________
| |
| | <- power supply
|________|
|@
|#
|iI <- motherboard ports
|:i
|-------
|-------
|-------
|------- <- 7 slots
|-------
|-------
|-------




regular micro ATX case:
_________
| |
| | <- power supply
|________|
|@
|#
|iI <- motherboard ports
|:i
|-------
|------- <- 4 slots
|-------
|-------



"short" ATX case:
_________
|@ | |
|'' | | <- power supply next to motherboard ports
|iI | |
|:i |____|
|-------
|-------
|-------
|------- <- 7 slots
|-------
|-------
|-------




These cases can range from expensive (Coolermaster ATC 500 all aluminum) to very cheap (I can get some $35 cases with 300W power supply - all generic of course, PM me if interested).

 

[optimistic]

Hey Zap! Here's some more DDR mATX boards to add to your database.

DFI NS35-SL
http://sj.dfi.com.tw/product/fetch.asp?theValue=NS35-SL
-SIS 650 chipset, socket 478
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI, 1 CNR
-Video, Realtek 10/100 NIC, AC97

Epox ep-8kmm+
http://www.epox.com/html/english/products/motherboard/ep-8kmm+.htm
-Via KM266 chipset, socket A
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI,
-Video, Realtek 10/100 NIC, AC97, UDMA133

MSI MS-6390
http://www.msicomputer.com/product/detail_spec/km266.htm
-Via KM266 chipset, socket A
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI, 1 CNR
-Video, Realtek 10/100 NIC, AC97, UDMA133, USB 2.0 (optional)

MSI MS-6533GL
http://www.msicomputer.com/product/detail_spec/ms6533gl.htm
-SIS 650 CHIPSET, socket 478
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI, 1 CNR
-W/DIRECT VGA,LAN & AUDIO

SHUTTLE MS51N
http://www.shuttleonline.com/spec.php3?model=ms51
-SIS 650 chipset, socket 478
-2 DDR, 1 AGP, 3 PCI, 1 CNR
-Video, Realtek 10/100 NIC, AC97, DDR333, UDMA133, P4 B "533" support

 

[lsman]

this one may be good but can you find where to buy is another issue....
Biostar M7VIG link
VIA KM266/VT8233A
2 DDR, 2 SDRAM, 3PCI, 1 AGP, 1 CNR, ATA 133, S3 Savage 4 video integrated, AC'97 2.2, optional LAN

[edit]
looks like biostar usa have this oneM7VKG no DDR support on their website. and twco.com has it for $67 (both said support ATA100)

M7VIG look to be a better one.

 

[Zap]

Actually guys, mudboy is doing the list. I just whipped one up for him to use. I don't know what his list will include, but my list EXCLUDES anything with integrated video regardless of AGP slot.

I've narrowed down to these boards:
Asus P4B266-M
Asus P4S333-M
EPoX EP-4BDM+
Chaintech 9BID

I know that the SiS chipset Asus board is available, but still not all that common. Haven't found any place with the Intel chipset Asus board yet. I don't like the boards that use (what I consider) non-standard port layouts, so boards like the Abit are out. The EPoX and Chaintech boards are barely available (Pricewatch lists only a single vendor each). The Asus P4S333-M seems the most available as well as the least expensive. Probably end up getting that one...

 

[Jhhnn]

I don't understand why anybody would "exclude" boards that have onboard video and an AGP slot. It's not like it costs any more, or hinders performance/stability in any way. And the loss of one serial port isn't exactly tragic, most of us have nothing plugged into them, anyway. I like to think of onboard video as a spare, a built-in backup, just in case.

The non-standard port configuration isn't a big deal, either, just so long as the board has the right shield included in the kit. I wouldn't pass on a board I wanted for either reason, but to each their own.....

Micro-atx is kinda the forgotten formfactor, manufacturers have gone right past it to smaller semi-proprietary systems. It was really a little ahead of its time when proposed because of the lack of integration and limited slots. With more onboard stuff, they now appeal to a wider audience.

They're nice, though, and make nifty smaller systems. My biggest gripe isn't the boards, it's the cases. Only a few will fit standard psu's, and those need mods to accomodate hot running AMD's, IMHO.

My newest box has an XP1700 on an Epox ep-8khm in a heavily modified Superpower KS502 with an Antec 300w psu. Had to trim one corner off of the Alpha 8045 to get it to fit, the silencer fan exhausts thru a blowhole on the side of the case. I swapped out the psu fan for the quiet xinruilian fan that came with the case. (How the hell do you pronounce "xinruilian," anyway?) The board came from Bunta, the case from Axion.

I'd definitely recommend the board. While the case is sturdy and has removeable side panels, the front bezel leaves a lot to be desired. The grille is fake, and the attachment is flakey. I made a new bezel from redwood and pine, anyway, with a nice big filtered intake grille. The finished box measures 14-3/16" square by 7-1/8"- with tight-fitting cdrom, cdrw, Matrox G400, Intel nic, two empty pci slots- quiet, too.

 

[Plester]

Jhhnn - many chipsets that integrate video (ie. the sis650 and some of the KTxxx/S3 integrated) perform significantly slower than their non-video integrated counterparts. have a look at THIS roundup of sis645 and 650 mobos. the msi is a sis650 board, and even when onboard video is disabled and a GF3 added, it is SIGNIFICANTLY slower than all the other boards in terms of both office productivity and gaming.

I have an Asus P4S333-M and it is a great board in every way, it's only shortcoming is a lack of voltage adjustments other than doing the wire trick (which is simple enough if you just drop a wire into the socket holes - takes 5 minutes). it overclocks like a champ w/ 1mhz fsb increments and lots of DDR tweakablity.

prior to that i had an Aopen MX3S-T that also overclocked well with a 1gig Tualeron and was very quick.

bottom line is that there are viable options out there, you just need to do your research and i disagree with others and would avoid sis650 based boards as well as VIA KTxxx/S3 integrated stuff.

 

[Jhhnn]

Plester- haven't really kept up with the second tier chipsets for Intel processors, you may be right about the SiS models. That's only one board in those tests, though, and it could just be buggy drivers or immature bios, hard to say for sure.

On the other side of the great divide, though, the Via KT and KM chipsets don't seem to exhibit that kind of behavior. Not in the SDRAM models, anyway, I doubt that Via screwed up the KM266 after they got it right with the KM133, but the chipset is new enough that I haven't seen any reviews, either.

I am, however, very impressed with my kt266 Epox. I'll be the first to acknowledge that Via has had their problems, but they seem to learn well, and haven't done any serious backsliding. It appears to be their best effort so far.

 

[Zap]

Alright then!

I made my purchase. Ended up being a board that I never knew existed. I was checking out stuff at Axiontech.com and found their little online chat thingy with sales. So, I asked (Annie?) about in-stock micro ATX boards with DDR support for socket 478. She pointed me the way to the Aopen MX4B. Uses 845D, 1 AGP, 3 PCI, integrated (Intel chipset, maybe?) LAN, AC'97 audio. I got it for $90.95 plus shipping. The case I already have is the Inwin IW-V523P-180B from Newegg. It is a micro ATX tower in black. The power supply is almost regular ATX, but shorter. I measured using a "normal" ATX power supply and the longest CDROM drive I could find lying around, and there would still be 1½" clearance if I swapped power supplies. For now I'll go with the shorty power supply. It does 180W (I think "Power Man" brand), supports the P4 12V plug and has two small and 4 large drive plugs. I figured that if the manufacturer has more plugs than the number of drives I plan to install, then it should be safe. If not, easy matter to put in a standard ATX power supply (as long as it doesn't have a second fan opposite the normal one). Speaking of fans, this case has a good fan spot in the back. It is kinda big for micro ATX (seeing how small some of those ones using tiny power supplies can be), but much smaller than most regular ATX cases. The only gripe I have with it is the floppy drive bay has a cover built into the front fascia.

Well, since I just (on 5/17) ordered the other stuff, I'm still waiting... The Aopen board supposedly has BIOS tweaks such as 1MHz FSB and adjustable multipliers. No mention of Vcore, but nothing a wire can't take care of. I have some "original" Samsung PC2700 512MB on the way, along with a P4 1.6A and a Maxtor 80GB 7200RPM "quiet drive." Video card I'm hoping to trade with a buddy for a Radeon 7500. My GF (who this is for) already has a Toshiba DVD drive and an LG burner. I think this would make for a nice system for her modest needs.

 

[Plester]

that should be a sweet little board. prolly no vcore adjustment, but wire mods are easy.

i have been going down the really small PC road for a while now. initially started with a cheap PCChips 'BookPC', but thay are sketchy little rigs. moved on to a Aopen H300A slim case w/ an o'ced tualeron in an Aopen MX3S-T (815E based board - very nice!), but didn't like being restricted to low-profile video cards. there aren't many options out there, but finally settled on a Yeong Yang mini case that allows full height vid cards, but is still a very small form factor 13"x13"x5" +/-. a few Pics Here

running a 1.6A @ 2.4 and kingmax ddr at 4:5 ratio, o'ced GF3, fast HDD - so this thing can go up against any full sized PC, and it is small and quiet!

the one bummer with most little cases is the cpu socket tends to be right up against the ass end of the CD drive, w/ the YY, the back of the CD actually covers about 1/3 of my HS, hampering airflow. cutting a blowhole over the cpu and ducting the fan to it is a must in small cases, otherwise they get HOT.

trying to make small, fully overclockable/powerful pc's adds a whole new dimension. have fun.