Koch-backed think tank hilariously finds that "Medicare For All" would save $2T in healthcare costs

[Vic]

Okay, I'll trade you: I'll interpret it to advocate Universal Healthcare if you'll interpret it to be Pro-Life.

Except that you don't actually care about about the baby's life because you'd let it die from lack of care the moment after it was born.

 

[brycejones]

If not the government, then who? Government exists because some things need to be done that aren't going to be done without it. Admit it, it's the honest truth.

Dhphantom above would privatize the fire department and all schools.

 

[Atreus21]

Our version allows you to practice your views.

As long as we cede control of our healthcare to the government that is.

Your approach doesn't allow us to practice ours (including non-religious views).

To the extent yours involves legally killing our own children, correct.

 

[Atreus21]

Except that you don't actually care about about the baby's life because you'd let it die from lack of care the moment after it was born.

"You don't really care about the slaves because you'd just let them starve after they gained their freedom."

What an idiotic argument this is, and we see it so often.

 

[Pulsar]

As long as we cede control of our healthcare to the government that is.

Spoken as someone who can afford the $15,000+ a year it takes to purchase a reasonable health plan. But screw the poor, right?

 

[Atreus21]

Spoken as someone who can afford the $15,000+ a year it takes to purchase a reasonable health plan. But screw the poor, right?

Do you personally know anything about how much money I make, or my day-to-day life, to make such a statement?

I get health insurance through my employer, for which I have an astronomical deductible. And you know what I realize? The one constant through the rise of healthcare costs has been non-stop government involvement. Is it a coincidence that in those areas of the economy in which government has most intruded, cost problems and monopolistic tendencies are most pronounced (healthcare, airlines, education)?

 

[Commodus]

As long as we cede control of our healthcare to the government that is.

To the extent yours involves legally killing our own children, correct.

Private health care in the US clearly isn't working very well. Not when people are refusing trips to the hospital because receiving necessary treatment would ruin their financial lives. Not when doctors have financial incentives to recommend specific brands of medicine rather than the most affordable, or to suggest procedures you don't really need.

And please, drop the anti-choice rhetoric. It's not going to persuade anyone here. I find it particularly reprehensible to use an abortion ban as a kind of bargaining chip for better health care for hundreds of millions of Americans. How about we just accept universal health care and improve the overall welfare of the country, instead of willfully inflicting suffering on others (as you do) to get exactly what you want?

 

[Atreus21]

Private health care in the US clearly isn't working very well. Not when people are refusing trips to the hospital because receiving necessary treatment would ruin their financial lives. Not when doctors have financial incentives to recommend specific brands of medicine rather than the most affordable, or to suggest procedures you don't really need.

And therefore the entire thing has to be handed to the government? Because they're not known for cost-problems?

And please, drop the anti-choice rhetoric. It's not going to persuade anyone here.

That 2+2=4 may not always be persuasive is no indictment of arithmetic.

I find it particularly reprehensible to use an abortion ban as a kind of bargaining chip for better health care for hundreds of millions of Americans. How about we just accept universal health care and improve the overall welfare of the country, instead of willfully inflicting suffering on others (as you do) to get exactly what you want?

That is not what I meant by my initial objection. What I meant was to point out the foolishness of arguing that a "right to life" is a call for universal healthcare. If we're going to hijack such general statements of natural rights in the service of political objectives, then I think that knife should cut both ways.

 

[Commodus]

And therefore the entire thing has to be handed to the government? Because they're not known for cost-problems?

That 2+2=4 may not always be persuasive is no indictment of arithmetic.

That is not what I meant by my initial objection. What I meant was to point out the foolishness of arguing that a "right to life" is a call for universal healthcare. If we're going to hijack such general statements of natural rights in the service of political objectives, then I think that knife should cut both ways.

It's not that the government is never known for problems so much as the overall motivations. Government-run health care is not nearly as motivated for profit as private industry is; it's much better-suited to taking care of the less fortunate. It's more likely to give you the treatment you actually need, to offer generic drugs instead of overpriced branded drugs... you get the idea.

I will agree that a private-ish solution might be better for the US for a while, at least. Something more like the ACA, only without the compromises Obama made to placate the easily frightened types.

Fair enough on your objection. With that said, I do think your ability to lead a healthy life shouldn't be dictated by the size of your bank account.

 

[zinfamous]

To the extent yours involves legally killing our own children, correct.

No one is trying to kill your children, dingbat.

 

[Muse]

Government is not known by anybody as an efficient entity at anything other than increasing its budget and making sure its buddies get sweet deals.

That is straight up bullshit. I have worked in government, county a couple of temporary stints, and a couple at federal level. Government workers get shafted. Some may be corrupt but the same can be said for the private sector. The government foot soldier (and yeah, some government workers are literally foot soldiers!) is a grunt and poorly compensated most of the time. The perks of government work by and large trail those in the private sector, yes I've been in the private sector enough to know that for a fact. And not every government worker (and that is the most granular "entity") is inefficient. To say so is disrespectful.

 

[Vic]

"You don't really care about the slaves because you'd just let them starve after they gained their freedom."

What an idiotic argument this is, and we see it so often.

Freed slaves can become productive and self-sufficient members of society almost immediately after being freed. For newborn babies, that takes a little while longer.

This the government is never the answer except when it is argument of yours is a little disingenuous BTW. If government cannot be trusted with healthcare, then how can it be trusted to prevent abortion?

 

[Amused]

WaPo gives this claim 3 pinocchios claiming the Democrats are cherry picking numbers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/vide...2b2068-99c5-11e8-a8d8-9b4c13286d6b_video.html

The left needs to be careful to not spread disinformation. We have enough of that already.

 

[darkswordsman17]

WaPo gives this claim 3 pinocchios claiming the Democrats are cherry picking numbers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/vide...2b2068-99c5-11e8-a8d8-9b4c13286d6b_video.html

The left needs to be careful to not spread disinformation. We have enough of that already.

So, you didn't actually read the article? For starters, this thread is about a typically conservative leaning group doing a study backing that information up. Where you're getting that its liberals being dishonest, I don't know. I hate to sound like a typical conservative (or modern just general dumbfuck bitching about the media), but if you're gonna cop that, you'd better provide something of substance more than that video (seriously, I expected it to just nail several points and that's why it was so short, instead it was almost half over before it even got to refuting the claim, and then it just says that its optimistic that costs will be reduced by that amount and that demand will only go up by that amount, while not providing anything to dispute those figures, and then acts like it costing money to implement means they're lying about it saving money that Americans spend on health care - when the point is that the total amount, be it private and/or public, would be less by implementing a fully public funded system). I don't think it addressed the study that is the topic of the article that this thread is about, at all (I think its just about Sander's original claim, this study actually...er studied it by seeing if those things held up, its more in depth than just doing some simple addition/subtraction of a few numbers).

And that's just for 10 years from 2022-2031. I would think that getting more people access to health care would likely help longer term in reducing costs, as it would likely lead to earlier diagnosis of severe problems (the old, ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure).

I agree about being careful to not spread disinformation, and by all means, support that this is or realize that you're doing exactly what you're chastising others for.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

I looked it up Citizen of Europe. Parasiting off of the U.S. and massive rationing. Progressives such as yourself made your minds up from pie-in-the-sky data that did not prove out. The progressive ideology as a whole is based in this. So much in love with the idea of something that the reality is completely ignored. It sounded great, is not working, did not work, led to the suffering and deaths of millions... You tuned me out at sounded great didn't you? The leftist half a plan strikes again.

"I looked it up" = i found a swedish libertarian who confirms my bias

Tons of data supports the claim that the us hc system is crap for most folks unlike western socialized medecine.

 

[dank69]

Do you personally know anything about how much money I make, or my day-to-day life, to make such a statement?

I get health insurance through my employer, for which I have an astronomical deductible. And you know what I realize? The one constant through the rise of healthcare costs has been non-stop government involvement. Is it a coincidence that in those areas of the economy in which government has most intruded, cost problems and monopolistic tendencies are most pronounced (healthcare, airlines, education)?

The one constant I noticed is that internet use has gone up as healthcare costs have gone up so common sense says we should stop using the internet.

 

[zzyzxroad]

What exactly is Trump’s plan to fix our crazy high medical care and medicine costs? If he has a viable one even though I think he is a complete douche bag I will be 100% on board.

 

[hal2kilo]

What exactly is Trump’s plan to fix our crazy high medical care and medicine costs? If he has a viable one even though I think he is a complete douche bag I will be 100% on board.

The only time this admin acts on in healthcare is to take something away.