Kitchen remodel question, when and how much?

[PandaBear]

Got this 13 year old house last year. The last owner remodeled with everything except the kitchen cabinet, counter top, island, and appliance. The appliance was there when the house was build and are contractor grade: 6000 BTU range with no window in oven, microwave/vent with no turn table (and a nearly worn out tube), and a loud and rusting dish washer. I replaced the dish washer and the the range (and sold the old one on craigslist), and now the microwave is having some problem.

The cabinet is 12" deep but there are tiles and wood back plate on the wall for mounting the old microwave. The old microwave is 1" shorter than the new one, so combined with the extruded tiles and the shorter cabinet, the top mounting screws will fit through the face of the cabinet. I don't think I will mount through the face safely, and probably have no option of replacing the microwave with this situation.

The only option left are:

1) remodel the kitchen - well, it cost money (about 6 grand if I find a cheap chinese contractor) to do a new cabinet, island, counter top, sink, and faucet. I think the faucet is overdue, I hate the sink (too small), wife hate the counter top (cheap tiles with grouts), and some section of the cabinet has worn surface (not visible externally). The old one still looks good, not stunning good, but acceptable as a mid grade apartment. I feel guilty tearing it out, even though it is already 13-14 years old and I am the 3rd owner. My original plan is to use it for another 2 years and use it up before remodeling.

2) Smash the tiles and remove the wood back plate that interfere with the installation of my new microwave. The put white laminate around the extended part of the new microwave where color does not match (old microwave/cabinet are white, new microwave is stainless front, black side). Wife flat out reject this, I think it takes a lot of paid labor and only buy us 2 years of old kitchen life, but it saves cash that is semi-tight right now (I am cheap).

3) Live with the old microwave when the rest of the appliances are new. Wife will be disappointed, but hey, she just got spoiled with 2 new appliances, a new car (IS250), and we have a wedding next year that she calls the shot and get everything she wanted. She should be grateful for all this (well, she paid for half of it as she work full time too).



Background:
13-14 year old house ($785k Silicon Valley, considered inexpensive here)

13-14 year old cabinet/counter top/island in OK condition

New appliance (microwave) won't fit the old cabinet

No debt other than mortgage

Will be able to afford remodeling (and a wedding next year) by borrowing about $10k, and pay it off in 1 year's cash saving.

Will feel guilty of throwing away a usable kitchen in OK condition (about 2 more years of useful life).

Wife wants new kitchen, I want to save money.






Suggestion welcome (mature suggestion only, no "time to dump wife" or "is she hot, post pic" crap).

 

[akshatp]

Im not sure about your 6 grand estimate... Our granite countertop alone cost $5500 for our kitchen. If you are talking about replacing all the cabinets, fixtures, appliances, countertops, etc you are looking probably closer to a $20,000 bill.

That being said, if your wife wants a new kitchen, you should make it a priority #1. This is the most important room in the house for a woman. A nice new kitchen will make her want to be in there longer, thus you will be getting rewarded from it also. (Unless of course she just moves her bed in there)

In all seriousness, remodeling the kitchen will add value to the house in excess of what it costs you for the remodel. Dont go cheap on the remodel either, use quality cabinets and when you sell you will be glad.

And oh btw... This last bit made me LOL "Suggestion welcome (mature suggestion only, no "time to dump wife" or "is she hot, post pic" crap). "

 

[Kelemvor]

Got any pics?

However in general, kitchens and baths are the top money making remodels you can do. You get the most return on your money in those areas. Very surprising the previous person remodeled but skipped the kitchen.

Many times you can get the Look and Feel of really expensive stuff for not much money by doing it yourself, finding great deals on comparable products, etc.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Based on the price of the house, you don't want to cheap out on the kitchen. I don't know the size of your kitchen but I would estimate $30-40k for a kitchen renovation. Granite countertops, cherry cabinets, stainless steel appliances, wood flooring, etc...

 

[DrPizza]

Of course, you don't necessarily have to go with granite. There are alternatives; but the good alternatives are in the same price range. Granite has some drawbacks and the alternatives also have some drawbacks.

 

[Greenman]

The industry pundits claim the average kitchen remodel costs 65K.

 

[PandaBear]

Wow, the price you guys put out are scaring the heck out of me.

My kitchen cabinet is as followed:

Wall facing side
1) Top cabinet is about 12 feet across (1 short 2 door cabinet above fridge, 1 tall 1 door cabinet above left counter, 1 short 2 door cabinet above hood, and 1 tall 2 door cabinet at the corner)
2) Bottom cabinet consists of 1 set of draw on the left of range, 1 set of draw on the right of range, and a lazy Susan cabinet at the corner.

Window facing side
A cabinet under sink, a hole for the dish washer

Island
Size of a 2 door cabinet with one top draw (3' tall by 2' deep, normal height), counter top is 3' by 3' with a corner cut off along flow of traffic. Wall socket on the side of the island.


As you can see, it is an open kitchen slightly larger than an apartment size kitchen. My dad has a contractor he always go to, and last time he remodel the labor of the cabinet is about 2K (or maybe less, but I doubt I can get that since he redid his whole condo).

Material wise from what I remember the granite is about 700-900 a slab, so I guess I have to spend about 2.5k to 3k. Dad also used Chinese cabinet that I think is too low in quality, so that is probably market price on a low to mid range cabinet.

I am planning to stay in this house for at least 5 years, at most life time, but most likely 10-12 years. If I do the kitchen right now will it be worn out by then? I am not going to do anything fancy, just mid range good durability stuff.

 

[PandaBear]

Forgot to mention:

1) Last owner already got wood flooring
2) Wall is painted recently
3) Already paid for appliance (spend 2k, smartly, and got all good stuff), fridge is 1.5 years old so it will stay.

 

[DrPizza]

Don't let the prices people have quoted scare you too much.

A lot of the price depends on who you use as a contractor. And, a lot of the price depends on where you get your cabinets and other materials. The markup on kitchen cabinets is huge, and sometimes you pay a lot of money for certain brands, merely for the name. If you shop around, you might find a cabinet manufacturer available to you that makes cabinets of comparable quality to the big brands. Also, where you purchase the cabinets can make a big difference on the price.

One of the places my wife and I shopped at gave us some catalogs with prices in them. "Don't worry about the prices too much. If you want the actual price through us, take 60% off the catalog prices." After the stunned look on my face, when I realized I was going to be able to get dovetailed drawers, solid wood, no particle board (or press board, whatever that crap is)... essentially, I was going to get very good quality cabinets for a fraction of what I expected. i.e. the prices we were getting for quality cabinets wasn't much more than the price of the cheap, in stock, assemble them yourself cabinets from home depot.

I don't know how true it is, but the guy at the hardware store we went to explained that at least one local contractor used the prices in the book, but told their customers that their customers could get 10 or 20% off by purchasing the cabinets through them, "because we get a contractors discount. So, the cabinets are cheaper for you than if you tried to purchase them yourself." (i.e. there's still a 100% markup on the prices after the contractor did this.) I also have the option locally to have my cabinets custom made by the Amish... that's the last thing to look into.

Given what you've described, I think it'd be easy to do it for under 6k if I were doing it myself. If you're planning on 2k for labor though, I think 4k for materials might be cutting it a little close.

Also, look online for a program called Kitchendraw 5.0 - you might be able to come up with a new floor plan that you and the wife like more than your current floor plan. (It's free for umpteen days.) We spent hours upon hours on that program designing our kitchen before we happened upon something we were both very pleased with. And, it's *completey* different from our current kitchen arrangement.

 

[Kelemvor]

Here's our remodel pictures:

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/k...vor/Kitchen_Before.jpg

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/kelemvor/Kitchen_After.jpg

What we did: Cabinets, Countertops, Floor

Total price: $1000 or so

Painted cabinets and put on new hardware
Put on new counter top that I installed myself
Put in new flooring that I installed myself.

Remodeling doesn't have to be expensive if you are smart with your money and hunt around for a good deal.

 

[Jugernot]

I completely ripped the kitchen out of my house when I bought it. It had 20 year or appliances and the original cabinets/counters from 1974!

I replaced with a mid grade dark stained maple cabinets, bought 4 granite slabs (2'x8' at 3/4" thick, around 300lbs a piece). I put in the cabinets and cut the granite slabs myself with a dry diamond blade on my circular saw. Installed all new appliances including double Kenmore Elite convection oven ($3k), installed propane cooktop ($600) (house previously only had electric), double Fisher and Paykal dish drawer dishwasher ($1300), top mount GE fridge ($1400), huge single bowl sink big enough to put a half sheet cake pan, 22"x22" porcelin tile floor, hell I even put a pot filler in for me wife.

Carrying the granite was easily the hardest part considering I have a two story house and I cut them downstairs in the garage and brought upstairs to the ktichen. Luckily my counter layout only called for two longer 7' sections (around 280lbs each) and all the other parts were a lot easier at around 150lbs - 200lbs.

The other hard part was the double oven, since I installed myself, I had to pick it up and put it in the double oven cabinet.... got a buddy from work to help me with that one.

Anyway, I spent maybe $15k for a $50K kitchen.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Jugernot
I completely ripped the kitchen out of my house when I bought it. It had 20 year or appliances and the original cabinets/counters from 1974!

I replaced with a mid grade dark stained maple cabinets, bought 4 granite slabs (2'x8' at 3/4" thick, around 300lbs a piece). I put in the cabinets and cut the granite slabs myself with a dry diamond blade on my circular saw. Installed all new appliances including double Kenmore Elite convection oven ($3k), installed propane cooktop ($600) (house previously only had electric), double Fisher and Paykal dish drawer dishwasher ($1300), top mount GE fridge ($1400), huge single bowl sink big enough to put a half sheet cake pan, 22"x22" porcelin tile floor, hell I even put a pot filler in for me wife.

Carrying the granite was easily the hardest part considering I have a two story house and I cut them downstairs in the garage and brought upstairs to the ktichen. Luckily my counter layout only called for two longer 7' sections (around 280lbs each) and all the other parts were a lot easier at around 150lbs - 200lbs.

The other hard part was the double oven, since I installed myself, I had to pick it up and put it in the double oven cabinet.... got a buddy from work to help me with that one.

Anyway, I spent maybe $15k for a $50K kitchen.

If you don't mind me asking, how difficult was it installing the granite? I've found a place about an hour from me where I could buy some beautiful granite slabs, but I'd have to cut them myself. How hard to cut out for the sink? Did you do anything for the edge? Do they make some sort of diamone head for a router for doing the edges??

 

[LordSnailz]

Definitely shop around, I've seen many more ads these days that will do the kitchen for $5k.
We did ours for about that much and that includes ripping everything out, installing new cabinets and cabinets and also tile flooring. It also depends on where you live ... I'll post pics later

I think cabinets is something you can do yourself if you're handy but granite is something I think should be left for the contractor. One it's hard to cut and second it's hard to get everything to lineup and even ...

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Jugernot
I completely ripped the kitchen out of my house when I bought it. It had 20 year or appliances and the original cabinets/counters from 1974!

I replaced with a mid grade dark stained maple cabinets, bought 4 granite slabs (2'x8' at 3/4" thick, around 300lbs a piece). I put in the cabinets and cut the granite slabs myself with a dry diamond blade on my circular saw. Installed all new appliances including double Kenmore Elite convection oven ($3k), installed propane cooktop ($600) (house previously only had electric), double Fisher and Paykal dish drawer dishwasher ($1300), top mount GE fridge ($1400), huge single bowl sink big enough to put a half sheet cake pan, 22"x22" porcelin tile floor, hell I even put a pot filler in for me wife.

Carrying the granite was easily the hardest part considering I have a two story house and I cut them downstairs in the garage and brought upstairs to the ktichen. Luckily my counter layout only called for two longer 7' sections (around 280lbs each) and all the other parts were a lot easier at around 150lbs - 200lbs.

The other hard part was the double oven, since I installed myself, I had to pick it up and put it in the double oven cabinet.... got a buddy from work to help me with that one.

Anyway, I spent maybe $15k for a $50K kitchen.

If you don't mind me asking, how difficult was it installing the granite? I've found a place about an hour from me where I could buy some beautiful granite slabs, but I'd have to cut them myself. How hard to cut out for the sink? Did you do anything for the edge? Do they make some sort of diamone head for a router for doing the edges??

They do make diamond router bits for edging stone, you use 3 of them in sequence for a full bullnose. The bits are very expansive, and so is the 3hp wet router you need to turn them.

 

[akshatp]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Jugernot
I completely ripped the kitchen out of my house when I bought it. It had 20 year or appliances and the original cabinets/counters from 1974!

I replaced with a mid grade dark stained maple cabinets, bought 4 granite slabs (2'x8' at 3/4" thick, around 300lbs a piece). I put in the cabinets and cut the granite slabs myself with a dry diamond blade on my circular saw. Installed all new appliances including double Kenmore Elite convection oven ($3k), installed propane cooktop ($600) (house previously only had electric), double Fisher and Paykal dish drawer dishwasher ($1300), top mount GE fridge ($1400), huge single bowl sink big enough to put a half sheet cake pan, 22"x22" porcelin tile floor, hell I even put a pot filler in for me wife.

Carrying the granite was easily the hardest part considering I have a two story house and I cut them downstairs in the garage and brought upstairs to the ktichen. Luckily my counter layout only called for two longer 7' sections (around 280lbs each) and all the other parts were a lot easier at around 150lbs - 200lbs.

The other hard part was the double oven, since I installed myself, I had to pick it up and put it in the double oven cabinet.... got a buddy from work to help me with that one.

Anyway, I spent maybe $15k for a $50K kitchen.

If you don't mind me asking, how difficult was it installing the granite? I've found a place about an hour from me where I could buy some beautiful granite slabs, but I'd have to cut them myself. How hard to cut out for the sink? Did you do anything for the edge? Do they make some sort of diamone head for a router for doing the edges??

They do make diamond router bits for edging stone, you use 3 of them in sequence for a full bullnose. The bits are very expansive, and so is the 3hp wet router you need to turn them.

You could also get around this by installing a top-lip sink which would hide the edges of the rough cut for the sink opening. Although if you have a granite countertop, you want an undermount sink where you can brush all water and debris right into the sink and not have to deal with caulking the seal every two years and having all kinds of shit growing in there.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: akshatp

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Jugernot
I completely ripped the kitchen out of my house when I bought it. It had 20 year or appliances and the original cabinets/counters from 1974!

I replaced with a mid grade dark stained maple cabinets, bought 4 granite slabs (2'x8' at 3/4" thick, around 300lbs a piece). I put in the cabinets and cut the granite slabs myself with a dry diamond blade on my circular saw. Installed all new appliances including double Kenmore Elite convection oven ($3k), installed propane cooktop ($600) (house previously only had electric), double Fisher and Paykal dish drawer dishwasher ($1300), top mount GE fridge ($1400), huge single bowl sink big enough to put a half sheet cake pan, 22"x22" porcelin tile floor, hell I even put a pot filler in for me wife.

Carrying the granite was easily the hardest part considering I have a two story house and I cut them downstairs in the garage and brought upstairs to the ktichen. Luckily my counter layout only called for two longer 7' sections (around 280lbs each) and all the other parts were a lot easier at around 150lbs - 200lbs.

The other hard part was the double oven, since I installed myself, I had to pick it up and put it in the double oven cabinet.... got a buddy from work to help me with that one.

Anyway, I spent maybe $15k for a $50K kitchen.

If you don't mind me asking, how difficult was it installing the granite? I've found a place about an hour from me where I could buy some beautiful granite slabs, but I'd have to cut them myself. How hard to cut out for the sink? Did you do anything for the edge? Do they make some sort of diamone head for a router for doing the edges??

They do make diamond router bits for edging stone, you use 3 of them in sequence for a full bullnose. The bits are very expansive, and so is the 3hp wet router you need to turn them.

You could also get around this by installing a top-lip sink which would hide the edges of the rough cut for the sink opening. Although if you have a granite countertop, you want an undermount sink where you can brush all water and debris right into the sink and not have to deal with caulking the seal every two years and having all kinds of shit growing in there.

Under mount sinks are very cool in a granite top, and an absolute nightmare to replace if they get damaged.

 

[indamixx99]

AT needs a Home Remodeling/Construction forum.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: akshatp
Im not sure about your 6 grand estimate... Our granite countertop alone cost $5500 for our kitchen. If you are talking about replacing all the cabinets, fixtures, appliances, countertops, etc you are looking probably closer to a $20,000 bill.

That being said, if your wife wants a new kitchen, you should make it a priority #1. This is the most important room in the house for a woman. A nice new kitchen will make her want to be in there longer, thus you will be getting rewarded from it also. (Unless of course she just moves her bed in there)

In all seriousness, remodeling the kitchen will add value to the house in excess of what it costs you for the remodel. Dont go cheap on the remodel either, use quality cabinets and when you sell you will be glad.

And oh btw... This last bit made me LOL "Suggestion welcome (mature suggestion only, no "time to dump wife" or "is she hot, post pic" crap). "

Same here except I did a reface of the old cabinets and put in granite countertops for a total cost of $15k and I haven't done the backsplash yet. Probably looking at another $1k at least to do that in tile (doing the work myself).

We replaced the appliances last year when our cheap builder select stove crapped out (our house was built in 1994).

Granite is well worth the money and it is so freakin' beautiful if you choose well. I love our kitchen...in fact, I'm sitting in it now as I type this.

Old kitchen

New Kitchen

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Jugernot
I completely ripped the kitchen out of my house when I bought it. It had 20 year or appliances and the original cabinets/counters from 1974!

I replaced with a mid grade dark stained maple cabinets, bought 4 granite slabs (2'x8' at 3/4" thick, around 300lbs a piece). I put in the cabinets and cut the granite slabs myself with a dry diamond blade on my circular saw. Installed all new appliances including double Kenmore Elite convection oven ($3k), installed propane cooktop ($600) (house previously only had electric), double Fisher and Paykal dish drawer dishwasher ($1300), top mount GE fridge ($1400), huge single bowl sink big enough to put a half sheet cake pan, 22"x22" porcelin tile floor, hell I even put a pot filler in for me wife.

Carrying the granite was easily the hardest part considering I have a two story house and I cut them downstairs in the garage and brought upstairs to the ktichen. Luckily my counter layout only called for two longer 7' sections (around 280lbs each) and all the other parts were a lot easier at around 150lbs - 200lbs.

The other hard part was the double oven, since I installed myself, I had to pick it up and put it in the double oven cabinet.... got a buddy from work to help me with that one.

Anyway, I spent maybe $15k for a $50K kitchen.

If you don't mind me asking, how difficult was it installing the granite? I've found a place about an hour from me where I could buy some beautiful granite slabs, but I'd have to cut them myself. How hard to cut out for the sink? Did you do anything for the edge? Do they make some sort of diamone head for a router for doing the edges??

There is no way in hell I'd recommend installing granite yourself...especially if you haven't ever done it.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: indamixx99
AT needs a Home Remodeling/Construction forum.

I asked for one back when all the sub forums got added. Then I started reading the answers people were getting to the questions they asked, that changed my mind in a hurry.

 

[DrPizza]

Jules:
stainless steel fridge
stainless steel dishwasher
stainless steel stove/oven
stainless steel toaster


I hope you bought a new stainless steel coffee maker for your wife for Christmas!

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Jules:
stainless steel fridge
stainless steel dishwasher
stainless steel stove/oven
stainless steel toaster


I hope you bought a new stainless steel coffee maker for your wife for Christmas!

:laugh: Well, I was going to go with a white fridge, a black oven, a stainless dishwasher and an almond microwave but I don't think it would have looked as good.

Oh, and my wife doesn't drink coffee.

 

[Jugernot]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Jugernot
I completely ripped the kitchen out of my house when I bought it. It had 20 year or appliances and the original cabinets/counters from 1974!

I replaced with a mid grade dark stained maple cabinets, bought 4 granite slabs (2'x8' at 3/4" thick, around 300lbs a piece). I put in the cabinets and cut the granite slabs myself with a dry diamond blade on my circular saw. Installed all new appliances including double Kenmore Elite convection oven ($3k), installed propane cooktop ($600) (house previously only had electric), double Fisher and Paykal dish drawer dishwasher ($1300), top mount GE fridge ($1400), huge single bowl sink big enough to put a half sheet cake pan, 22"x22" porcelin tile floor, hell I even put a pot filler in for me wife.

Carrying the granite was easily the hardest part considering I have a two story house and I cut them downstairs in the garage and brought upstairs to the ktichen. Luckily my counter layout only called for two longer 7' sections (around 280lbs each) and all the other parts were a lot easier at around 150lbs - 200lbs.

The other hard part was the double oven, since I installed myself, I had to pick it up and put it in the double oven cabinet.... got a buddy from work to help me with that one.

Anyway, I spent maybe $15k for a $50K kitchen.

If you don't mind me asking, how difficult was it installing the granite? I've found a place about an hour from me where I could buy some beautiful granite slabs, but I'd have to cut them myself. How hard to cut out for the sink? Did you do anything for the edge? Do they make some sort of diamone head for a router for doing the edges??

It wasn't bad to be honest with you. People think granite is really hard to work with, on the contrary... it cuts quite easy with the right tools. I used a self rimming Americast sink from American Standard, so luckily I didn't have to worry too much about the rough opening to the sink, so I did 4 plunge cuts into the granite and dropped the peice from the bottom through the sink base cabinet. As for the edge, it's a full bullnose on all exposed edges.

The absolute hardest part about doing your own granite, bar none, is the seaming! I chose to do the easy way, by using a color matches siliconized caulk between slabs. I chose Paradiso granite (Link to some google images), which is near the top for price, but looks awesome. As it is a swirly type granite (some of the most expensive normally) the seams would have been readily apparent even if a professional granite installer had done the seaming because of the variations in the colors. Because I had adhered the granite slabs down with a bit of silicone, the seams have worked great for the past 1.5 years! When my wife shows people her kitchen, people are just blown away by the concept of doing the granite myself.

As for undermount sinks, they are nice. The killer for those was the replacement if you ever had to do any work on it. Not only are they more expensive to install (but easy if you are handy) you must take up the granite slabs to replace them when the time comes. That is harder than installing the first time.

Jugs

 

[PandaBear]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: akshatp
Im not sure about your 6 grand estimate... Our granite countertop alone cost $5500 for our kitchen. If you are talking about replacing all the cabinets, fixtures, appliances, countertops, etc you are looking probably closer to a $20,000 bill.

That being said, if your wife wants a new kitchen, you should make it a priority #1. This is the most important room in the house for a woman. A nice new kitchen will make her want to be in there longer, thus you will be getting rewarded from it also. (Unless of course she just moves her bed in there)

In all seriousness, remodeling the kitchen will add value to the house in excess of what it costs you for the remodel. Dont go cheap on the remodel either, use quality cabinets and when you sell you will be glad.

And oh btw... This last bit made me LOL "Suggestion welcome (mature suggestion only, no "time to dump wife" or "is she hot, post pic" crap). "

Same here except I did a reface of the old cabinets and put in granite countertops for a total cost of $15k and I haven't done the backsplash yet. Probably looking at another $1k at least to do that in tile (doing the work myself).

We replaced the appliances last year when our cheap builder select stove crapped out (our house was built in 1994).

Granite is well worth the money and it is so freakin' beautiful if you choose well. I love our kitchen...in fact, I'm sitting in it now as I type this.

Old kitchen

New Kitchen

That's it. That's the exact same kitchen setup that I have in the "old" kitchen. Except my cabinet is white (composite exterior, particle board).

How is your $15k break down?

 

[DrPizza]

I'm flabergasted at the thought that a $785,000 home that's 13 years old has particle board cabinets.