Kingdom of Heaven *Now a semi-nerdy history thread*

beepandbop

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Aug 11, 2006
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Besides showing the Templars off in a completely wrong light (they were probably the least willing to provoke a united Muslim Onslaught because unlike the visiting Europeans, they LIVED there) the movie is fairly well done.

Very politically correct because the Left that controls Hollywood would not have it any other way. But at least you can get a feel for the armor, architecture and so forth back then. Not the worst movie.
 

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Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
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Besides showing the Templars off in a completely wrong light (they were probably the least willing to provoke a united Muslim Onslaught because unlike the visiting Europeans, they LIVED there) the movie is fairly well done.

Very politically correct because the Left that controls Hollywood would not have it any other way. But at least you can get a feel for the armor, architecture and so forth back then. Not the worst movie.


I thought the Templers where the crusaders from Europe and the Knights of Antioch were the dwellers?

Educate me!
 

beepandbop

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Aug 11, 2006
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I thought the Templers where the crusaders from Europe and the Knights of Antioch were the dwellers?

Educate me!

Err no. In 1099, the Crusades were officially launched in first scale. The Crusaders were composed of mostly French, Italian Normans, and Normans from Normandy...in other words, these guys wanted a fight. They weren't necessarily motivated by religion (one of the greatest misconceptions of our age) but they liked profit--many of the Normans had fought against the Byzantine Emperor a few years before--now they were supposed to be fighting to defend his empire from the rapacious Saracens!

Anyway, the sheer vigor of their arrival drove the disorganized Arab states back, and the Crusaders carved up many states. Antioch was one, the Kingdom of Jerusalem was another, and the Principality of Tyre was a key region as well. I think I'm missing another state, but these were essentially kingdoms of their own in "Outremer" (meaning foreign land).

The Knights Templar were a group sworn to protect the Temple of Solomon, and they were essentially warrior monks in behavior and ritual. They were very well organized, but certainly not as ideological as some might think. Although they were devoutly Christian (at least initially) they realized that outright war with the Muslims would be impossible--many of their serfs and peasants were Muslim, and they were not keen to lose everything they had in some massive war.

Now remember, many of these Crusaders established Kingdoms. But many Europeans went home. They wanted to see their families, bring home the strange spices, etc. So this meant that from the start, the Crusades were seen more of an adventure, a way to gain experience, and less about Imperialism or even Religion as many revisionist historians seek to portray (Like Howard Zinn, RIP...).

So every so often, a big amount of knights would come to Outremer on "Crusade." There were around 9 official BIG Crusades, only the 1st, 3rd, and 6th were arguably successful in their goals, but in between such massive crusades, you had traders going back and forth, and soldiers and so forth going all over the place. The world was not static, even back then, although it certainly moved at a far slower pace than it does today.


Neither were religious allegiances static. Nationalism is a really an 18th century invention, but before that, people swore fealty to a lord. In that sense, that's all that really mattered. If your lord converted to Christianity, and you were a knight serving him, you'd convert too. If he converted back to Islam, so would you. Very rarely were there "mixed" households, although that was certainly possible as well.

In between the Crusades, the kingdoms of Outremer fought as much against each other as they did with the enemy Muslims they were all supposed to be united against.

In Kingdom of Heaven, Reynald de Chatallion is portrayed as a rapacious Christian pirate and raider, preying upon the poor Muslims.

While he was a pirate, he was not a Templar (the Templars spent a great deal of effort killing raiders and pirates of all religious allegiances, although they had a navy that could act as a privateer force) and he preyed upon Christian and Muslim merchantmen with equal veracity.

So you can see, it was a lot more complicated than just "Muslim vs. Christian," there were many cultural norms that we are simply unaware of today.

The Hashishaam were another example. They're made popular by Assassin's Creed, and they did exist. They killed both Christians and Muslims, depending on who hired them, but while they were a lot more skilled than just hired thugs, they certainly had no real motivations other than money. I believe Mamluks wiped out their stronghold in the 13th century.
 
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nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
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Yes you are correct, but that is when Pope Urban II started preaching about it, nothing really got done until 1099, so that is what I tell people, just for brevity's sake. :)

Now I'm just being a dick :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Antioch

The most daunting part of the 1st crusade was the Seige of Antioch which was 1097/98. After the Christians pulled this victory out of their ass (read up on it, its really amazing), the rest was a piece of cake, including the fall of Jerusalem.
 
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Gothgar

Lifer
Sep 1, 2004
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hooray, history thread

I just watched a thing last night on the Templars coming to America, and all these rocks with their runes written on them and such, basically it says that they came to America in the 1300's!!

Awesome shit
 

beepandbop

Banned
Aug 11, 2006
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Now I'm just being a dick :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Antioch

The most daunting part of the 1st crusade was the Seige of Antioch. After the Christians pulled this victory out of their ass (read up on it, its really amazing), the rest was a piece of cake, including the fall of Jerusalem.

Jerusalem fell in 1099, goal of Crusade: Capture Jersualem. Crusade Objective: Met

Kingsdom Created--something got done. :p

But we could argue about semantics all day. Antioch was a pretty startling battle, but not a very impressive one. The Crusaders' flagging morale got a boost when they 'discovered' the lance that had pierced Christ's side.

It also helped that as they were fighting the massive Arab Army, a Frankish army of reinforcements trapped the Arab Army from behind.
 

beepandbop

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Aug 11, 2006
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For those interested in the Knights Templar, check out the Knights Hospitaller. Very underrated, they get no air time :)

Hospitallers are very cool, but they come into their own in the 14th-16th centuries. They are certainly as skilled as the Templars, but the Templars have all that Temple of Solomon/Masonic shit going for them, so that's why the Hospitallers are underrated. They were basically competing Orders, although the Hospitallers survived the envy of European kings, the Templars did not.

There are many lesser known Orders as well. The Teutonic Knights used to be a favorite, but there were also the Livonian Brothers of the Sword, Order of Aviz, and the Order of Alacntra, just to name a few.

There are quite a few of these orders which shows how the necessity for an organized military force drove people together, and it also shows the groundwork of a professional force since the Roman Empire--although founded for entirely different reasons.
 

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Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
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Dude, beepandbop just gave me an education lesson and he got banned? WTF.
 

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Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
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lol, I was thinking the samething. WWYBYGB take into effect?

helen_of_troy_diane_kruger_movie_2005.jpg


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