Kimber Kable -- anyone use it?

[AndrewR]

I just ran across this stuff, and I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW EXPENSIVE IT IS!!! However, the reviews of their lowest model speaker cables are amazing -- see here.

Does anyone use their products? Just for kicks, I looked at the price of their optical audio cable -- $155!!!! :Q The cable mentioned above is $1.60/ft in bulk, or $35.60 for two pair of 8 ft cables with bare wire ends. Prices can be found here.

I'm tempted to buy some bulk cable and connect my sub and two front speakers with this since the reviews are so glowing about the improvement. Hmmm...tempting...

 

[Poontos]

I went out with her in high school for a few years, but we broke up after I found she was a lesbian.

 

[vi edit]

I've got some high quality Iowa dirt I can sell you. Guaranteed to make your corn grow taller than Illinois corn. I only charge $1000 a ton for it.

 

[flood]

They sound pretty good, but theyre overpriced.
You can get better value by going with audioquest or alpha-core.
I used to use some of their intereconnects on my system:
Cambridge Audio D500
Musical Fidelity X-Cans V2 Tube Headphone amp
Sennheiser HD 580

If you want to use it for your sub... I take it you want to do it at speaker level. Make sure your other equipment is up to snuff. Pirelli tires on a yugo does jack to make it perform better.

 

[AndrewR]

Granted, it's only one guy, but Kimbers were compared directly with Audiocore and were found to be better. Midway down on Audioreview. Just thought I'd point that out.

Have any good sites for prices on that other stuff?

 

[billandopus]

I used to use Kimber PB&J's and they were fine. If I was super rich i'd have a pair of them old Kimber Black Pearls just for the heck of it.

Yep, over 1.5 inches in diameter! Stiff too. What an hard-to-use product. It was some 15 grand for a 8-10ft pair terminated.

Yep, 15 grand. Woo hoo!

 

[poop]

I was wondering how any speaker cable could be so expensive, then I went to www.kimber.com. Holy hifi, batman!!! The high end cable is made with pure silver conductor!!!

 

[AndrewR]

Sometimes I wonder why people spend so much damn money on audio systems. I mean, there are good audio systems that are expensive, and then there are just ridiculously outrageous setups costing hundreds of thousands of dollars.

If you are going to spend that much money, just fly to the live concert already.

 

[billandopus]

Yes, it's called "Elitism" ...

 

[Taz4158]

Have some Silver Streak in my second system.

 

[fallenoncrack]

nope

 

[Ornery]

I've got a topic going over at AudioReview Forums about the DIY Component Video Cable project. I stumbled onto this Wonderful Wire Hype Post: by a guy that goes by the handle of "A".

• "Before you buy any expensive wires..."
  
  Before you buy any expensive wires, you might want to look at the following:
  
  Some double blind tests.
  
  What's the Placebo Effect?
  (Why Double Blind Testing is needed. Someone may easily believe they hear a difference when they do not actually hear a difference; the more impressive LOOKING thing usually is believed to "sound" better. Consequently, listening when you can see what you are hearing is unreliable for testing any controversial matter. Double blind tests can indicate whether it is the appearance of the thing {rather than the actual sound it makes} that influences people to believe that it sounds better. Many people hate double blind tests, because they do not always give the person the result they wanted; i.e., they often believe they hear things that they cannot. It is an unfortunate characteristic of humans that they tend to blame the test rather than to consider that they may have been mistaken about what they can actually hear. There have even been some fun tests where nothing is changed, but people swear they hear a difference!)
  
  Speaker Wire - A History
  
  ************
  (This one has a chart recommending wire gauges. Don't use wire that is too small. Because 'generic' 12 gauge wire is so inexpensive, I recommend not using anything smaller, unless you absolutely have to {as, for example, you are running it through a conduit that is not large enough}. Also, the entire article is interesting and informative.)
  ************
  
  Cable Nonsense
  
  http://www.audioreview.com/reviews/Cable/product_3854.shtml
  
  Reviews of Radio Shack RS Gold Interconnects.
  (For this one, you should scroll down to the review by Christopher Fucik. Read a review? Read it, and you should understand why. His review is long, but well worth reading. His measurements are enlightening.)
  
  http://www.vxm.com/21R.64.html
  (A wire manufacturer unwilling to have his claims actually tested. Why is it that, after so many years, there has been NO wire manufacturer who has actually bothered to prove their claims about their wires being audibly superior to ordinary ones? No, it is NOT a lack of money; see the next link.)
  
  http://www.forbes.com/forbes/98/1228/6214066a.htm
  "A $100 stereo cable is something like undercoating on a car. To move the product, you have to motivate the salesman."
  (There is plenty of profit for wire salespeople. Why don't they spend some of that money to prove their claims? Wouldn't that really help sell the wires? And no, it is not that expensive or difficult; many manufacturers already use double blind procedures for testing various equipment, including speakers. The only explanation that I have found plausible is that their claims are false, but you should think carefully about the matter for yourself.)
  
  http://www.magnani.net/~al/DigitalWireLabTest.html
  "A delicate digital AC-3 signal originating from my $4500.00 Theta DaViD transport THROUGH A WIRE HANGER...the Dolby Decoder reported ZERO errors..."
  
  Science and Subjectivism in Audio.
  (A very good read.)
  
  Audio Distortions
  
  (Another very good read. This one illustrates 'technobabble'. If you don't understand something, it could be something important, or merely marketing hype with a few facts thrown in to sound impressive.)
  
  
  What's All This Hoax Stuff, Anyhow?
  
  What's All This Splicing Stuff, Anyhow?
  
  I Am As Mad As Hell - Find Out Why
  
  Seven Shiny Pennies
  (I am not the only one annoyed by BS marketing of audio products. Do you want to buy some magic beans with your hard earned money, or do you want to face facts?)
  
  
  For the following two, you must subscribe (it's free) to The New York Times on the Web.
  http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/12/circuits/articles/23down.html
  
  http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/12/circuits/articles/23wire.html
  
  
  Wires are one of the big controversies at this site. I think expensive wires are a waste of money, but you should THINK about the issue carefully for yourself. If expensive wires are better, why is there no proof that they are?
  
  "Proof," of course, is more than just some people making some claims; many have claimed to be abducted by aliens, but that does not prove that they have been. "Proof" requires scientific evidence. In this case, double blind listening tests would probably be the most satisfactory type of test, which should be repeated by others, as one person could cheat (or make a mistake) in one test, and that would not be proof of anything. (Remember the claims of "cold fusion?" When the tests were repeated, it was shown that the original testers had made a mistake.)
  
  Do NOT confuse something being measurable with something being audible. Many things can be measured but not heard. 100 kHz can be measured, but is not audible to humans. (No, I am NOT saying that no measurements are relevant to what can be heard; I am saying that not all measurements are relevant.)
  
  When someone says, "Trust your ears" or "Hearing is believing", consider this: Do you thoughtlessly trust your eyes when you see a stick inserted halfway in water? If you don't trust your eyes without thinking, why would you trust your ears without thinking? I recommend not mindlessly trusting your sensory organs, but engaging your brain before you make a decision.
  
  Curiously, sometimes people will say "trust your ears", and then they themselves will make judgments without listening for themselves, like saying that an interesting article (about a cheap RCA CD player being audibly indistinguishable from players costing over $1000 in a blind test) must be wrong, without ever listening to the cheap CD player. (See: The $ensible $ound, # 74, Apr/May 1999, pg. 28-30.) People often buy expensive things not for their function, but for their status, but they may convince themselves that it is function. No one, for example, buys a watch that costs thousands of dollars just because they want to know what time it is, though some may claim that that is their motive. Do you think the same idea could apply to the world of audio equipment and accessories? The status of a thing is very important to many people, and often clouds their judgment. For more on the human psychology of this, you can start by reading Hans Christian Anderson's "The Emperor's New Clothes". There is a reason why certain children's stories have such an enduring appeal; it is because they illustrate real traits of humans. See: http://deoxy.org/emperors.htm Or: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/7008/index31.html Or: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type1620.html
  
  This brings to mind another lie, that everyone knows is a lie, yet, strangely, some people believe it is true: "You get what you pay for." Everyone knows this is false; if it were true:
  • 
    1) you would not need to think (or listen) at all in order to know what to buy; always, the more expensive the item, the better;
    2) buying things on sale would not help, as the same product would be worse than it is at full price;
    3) looking for a bargain would always be foolish, because the lower priced item would always be worse;
    4) product brands would be totally irrelevant; always, the more expensive the item, the better;
    5) looking for advice on what to buy would be foolish once one knew, the more expensive the item, the better;
    6) those "white van" speakers would be worth every penny one paid for them (there could not possibly be any kind of con, because "You get what you pay for."
    7) building something yourself to save money would be a waste of time, because it would necessarily be inferior to anything more expensive.
  Need I go on? The simple fact is that price does not correspond to quality; in audio equipment or in anything else. Of course, price is tied in with the prestige of an item, because anything that is very expensive cannot be owned by most people, so it will virtually always, with some people, seem like something wonderful if only it is very expensive. This is true regardless of whether it is audio equipment or anything else.
  
  Beware of 'technobabble'. There is nothing like including a few impressive facts and half-truths while omitting important and relevant facts when someone is trying to convince you of something that is false. This may occur in an advertisement, or in someone's post here; there should be one posted in reply to this any minute now, but I cannot promise that someone will comply and give us a good example (there might, instead -- or in addition to -- be insults like those contained in "The Emperor's New Clothes" against those who cannot see the new clothes). See:http://www.sundial.net/~rogerr/truth.htm
  
  I do NOT suggest that anyone blindly follow anything I or anyone else has said, either on this forum or on any link; I strongly recommend that people think carefully about the issues for themselves AFTER considering different points of view. I leave it to the true believers to post links for the other side, as any such links from me would be regarded by many as a misrepresentation of the other side (as if there were only two sides to this issue).
  
  Indeed, I disagree with some of what is said in the links I have provided. To give you one example, I believe that Christopher Fucik is mistaken in his belief that "...the cables included with your components are crap, and an investment in interconnects that are sturdy, corrosion-resistant, and well-sheilded is wise." I have never had any problems with the included wires breaking or the ends becoming damaged; they are sturdy enough if you do not yank them from the middle -- if you abuse things, then you should expect that you may damage things from time to time. And I do not put my audio system in a very corrosive environment (which would generally be a very bad idea), so corrosion is not a major issue in my case. I have also not had shielding problems that were not fixed by simply moving wires away from other wires. Now, if your conditions differ from mine in relevant ways (e.g., you have your equipment in a corrosive environment), or if you treat your wires differently from the way I treat mine (e.g., if you abuse them), then following his advice on this point is what I would recommend (well, actually, I would recommend getting your equipment out of the corrosive environment and stop abusing your wires, but if you are going to do so anyway, then buying sturdy wires will be a good idea). In any case, his other comments, where he gives reasons for his views, are extremely useful. Be selective in what you believe, and decide these things for yourself.
  
  Regarding the connecting wires that are often included with components: Obviously, the manufacturer regards those wires as good enough for connecting their components, and if you cannot trust them with selecting wires, then you should not buy their components in the first place. Wires are far simpler than audio components, and if they are not capable of selecting satisfactory wire, then they are far too incompetent to design and manufacture components. Besides, take a look at the wires used inside electronic components and speakers; they are usually not much different from supplied connecting wires. If special wires were really needed, then they would need to be inside the components and would also generally be supplied by manufacturers. Given the cost of many components, they would include exotic wire if it really improved the sound, instead of the interconnects that they do include. If the included interconnects made their components sound bad, then many of the components would be returned, wouldn't they?
  
  
  If you decide to listen to wires for yourself, listen "blind" (i.e., have someone else hook up the wires and not tell you what you are hearing; decide if it is good or not, then look and make sure they did not hook up the "inferior" wires too loosely). People who object to listening blind do not want to get the "wrong" answer; they are like the people in The Emperor's New Clothes. Many judge sound quality by price and prestige rather than by sound. This is one reason why many hate double blind tests, because such tests force one to listen with one's ears rather than with one's prejudices. Judge by the sound, not by seeing what it is first.
  
  
  Depending on the type of connectors on your amplifier (receiver) and speakers, you might choose to have different connectors at each end of your speaker wire. What will work best in your case will depend on the types of connectors on your equipment, and how often you plan on disconnecting and reconnecting things. By the way, I suggest that, if you have a soldering iron and are capable of using it, you can 'tin' (i.e., melt solder into) the ends of braided wires instead of buying "pin" type connectors. Retighten your connections after a few days (if you have the type of connections that can be retightened). If you prefer a different type of connector, by all means, buy it.
  
  
  One last thing: If someone claims something that most electrical engineers regard as impossible, and makes the claims here rather than in a scientific forum -- is the person a misunderstood genius or just another quack? (History tells us which of these is more likely....) By all means, read what they say and decide for yourself. YOU decide whether their remarks are 'technobabble' or the truth. But whatever you do, THINK FOR YOURSELF.
  
  
  *****************************
  
  "Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I've taken the approach of shopping with my brain and not so much with my ears. I have yet to be disappointed." -- Christopher Fucik, from: http://www.audioreview.com/reviews/Cable/product_3854.shtml
  
  *****************************
  
  "Believe only half of what you see and nothing you hear." -- an English proverb
  
  *****************************
  
  My apologies for the length of my explanations, but, unfortunately, I have found that some people who profess to be experts on the subject matter have had difficulty understanding the relevance of the various links. Frankly, I expect that in the future, I will need to make the explanations even longer for these people. On the other hand, there will probably be some who will not like what I post no matter how clear or reasonable the explanations may be.
  
  It's your money; spend it how you like.

Awesome stuff, eh?

 

[AndrewR]

I don't have time right now to read over that HUGE article. However, I am skeptical about the blanket assertion that there could be no possible improvement in audio signal quality with improved cabling. I did see a noticeably improved difference in video signals by switching from a standard D-sub computer video cable to a BNC cable -- clarity and brightness improved tremendously. Now, since the signal carried by an audio cable is a bit different (not the same "bundled channels" of a video signal, I don't think -- guessing here), the analong (no pun intended) is not entirely the same. That being said, the signal is electrical in nature and is therefore subject to environmental distortion from external EMF sources. A better insulated cable makes for less interference. Further, different metals are better conductors, and pure metals are better conductors than less pure ones. So, it stands to reason, to me -- correct me if I'm wrong, that a wire with better insulation and a better conducting metal would provide improved signal clarity.

Now, that's not to say that some of this stuff isn't insanely overdone, but I'm only stating that there seems to be a logical basis for better than "crap quality" cables. Am I missing something?

 

[Fatdog]

Wow! Long post, but an excellent read. Thanks Ornery. I've been to numerous A/V shows and it's amazing how easily it is to get caught up in the hype. Of course the wrong place to judge anything is in the middle of a noisy auditorium.

 

[Ornery]

Read the links and you won't be missing anything. Switching from composite signal to S-VHS will yield improvement and switching up to component video will yield even better. That's not the argument. The argument is whether to pay $100.00 for a component cable over a $25.00 cable. Can the difference be seen? It may have less measurable interference on a meter, but no way be detectable by the naked eye.

I've heard that there is no reason to look for a THD level beyond a certain point. That one component measures a lower THD than the next is irrelevant after a certain point. Probably reach the same point of diminishing returns with interconnect cables too.

And most of the links above are dealing with speaker cable anyway. Interconnects do need good shielding. How good is the argument...

 

[Rastus]

Andrew, don't compare audio to video, they are different animals and there is a difference in the video world that is easily proven.

 

[LordMaul]

No!

 

[billandopus]

Holy crap, Ornery!

Tell me you cut and pasted that mother. Otherwise you're the world's fastest typist.

 

[Harvey]

There are tweak audio nuts who know what they are talking about and those who live in a la-la land of self-indulgent fantasy. This includes those i I call Wire Weenies. :Q

The wrong kinds of wire (or bad wire) can degrade your audio. For example, if the connectors are coated or otherwise make bad contact, if some of the strands are broken or oxidized, or if the wire is just too small a guage for the job, there can be signal degradation. Sometimes, just cleaning your connectors with contact cleaner, alcohol, or even WD-40 (yes, it works), will make a big difference.

In line level cables, like those between an external CD player or tape deck and your central control system, high capacitance can cause a loss of high frequency information.d This is a function of the length of the cable. The longer the cable, the more important this becomes.

One area where wire can make a difference is speaker wire. This is because speakers typically have a very low impedance (nominally around eight ohms), so even a fraction of an ohm can represent a large percentage of the total impedance seen by the power amplifier. Some of the worst Wire Weenies are Speaker Spooks. Their explanations defy all known laws of electronics, physics and general reality. There are guys who make wire with arrows indicating which end of the cable should be connected to the power amplifier and which should be connected to the speakers. These guys are blowing smoke, inhaling some of it, and getting a great buzz, but they aren't sharing it with us.

The basic rule is that the wire must be of a sufficiently large guage to handle the current. Stranded wire is preferred because it is more flexible and because, at whatever small level it may apply at audio frequencies, it minimzes "skin effect" which supposedly affects high frequencies.

The longer the wire run, the larger guage the cable should be. 16 ga. is about a minimum for around ten feet of speaker wire. 14 ga. is better. Any measurable impedance in the wire will degrade the bass, but you can get the same results with an appropriate guage of lamp cord.

A great way to minimize wire losses is to keep the length between the power amplifier and the speaker very short. If you have a entral controlling preamp and separate power amps, you can locate the amps close to the speakers, instead of close to the controller.

The entire mentality of audio tweeks is why I design for professional studio use, instead of that market. They are more tuned into sci-fi mystery oil than any science, whatsoever.

 

[Ornery]

Shoot bill_n_opus, that's the third time I've posted that Wire Hype novel here. I never throw anything away, least of all a work of art like that!

I think I'm going to buy stock in Monster Cable and Kimber Kable. They must be second only to AOL in turning clever marketing into mega dollars like that. My hat's off to them!