Killing Them Softly . . . Our Policies

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Conservative Agenda Hurts Africa

New York Times - Clip:

In fairness to President Bush, he presumably meant well when he cut off funds for some of the world's most vulnerable women.

The Bush administration announced a few weeks ago that it was halting payments to the Reproductive Health for Refugees Consortium because, it said, one of the seven charities in the consortium was linked to abortions in China. So I decided to do what the White House didn't ? come out and see these programs we are slashing.

That's where I met Rose Wanjera, a 26-year-old woman with one small child and another due about November (she isn't sure because she hasn't had any prenatal care). This month her husband was mauled to death by wild dogs, and she developed an infection that threatens her health and the unborn baby's.

She turned to a clinic affiliated with Marie Stopes International, where a doctor treated her infection, palpated her bulging stomach and enrolled her in a safe-motherhood program. Unfortunately, this is the very aid group that the White House is campaigning against for supposedly being involved in abortions in China. Even before the latest cuts for aid to refugees, the Kenyan program of Marie Stopes International had already had to close two clinics and lay off 80 doctors and nurses because the Bush administration had applied its "gag rule" (no money to groups that mention abortions) and cut off grants for it.

So because of White House maneuvering, girls and women in Africa's shantytowns are losing programs that offer them prenatal checkups, well-baby care, childbirth and family-planning assistance, and, above all, help fighting AIDS.

Consider Deka Hamid, a 25-year-old Somali refugee who brought her 5-month-old son to a Marie Stopes clinic because he is too weak to hold his head up. Doctors offered some treatment, but there may be no cure because the health problem arose from a flawed delivery by an untrained Somali midwife.

Complications of pregnancy and childbirth kill a quarter-million African women each year, and those deaths are what the refugee consortium is trying to prevent. I visited five Marie Stopes clinics in Kenya, spoke to the patients and front-line doctors, and found them to be a lifeline for destitute girls and women who have few alternatives.

At one clinic, doctors fought to save the unborn baby of Gladys Wambui, an impoverished 27-year-old woman who was close to her due date ? but whose fetus had abruptly stopped moving. Ultimately, she lost the baby.

It was horribly discouraging, as work here in the slums often is. The doctors and nurses in these clinics are fighting AIDS, rape, sexually transmitted diseases and genital mutilation of girls, and instead of being hailed as heroes, they're denigrated and stripped of funds by White House ideologues who don't know what an African slum is.

Because of the cutoff of U.S. funds to the refugee consortium, the head of Marie Stopes in Kenya, Cyprian Awiti, says he is having to drop a planned outreach program to help Somali and Rwandan refugees.

"Bush does not realize how many people are going to suffer," Mr. Awiti said. "If you don't give money to the consortium, does he know how many deaths he will cause?"

U.S. officials acknowledge that the refugee consortium (which also includes CARE and the International Rescue Committee) does great work. But they said this was outweighed by Marie Stopes's activity in China.

It's true that Marie Stopes International operates in China ? providing contraceptives that reduce the number of abortions there. If Mr. Bush were trying to do something about coercive family planning in China by denouncing such abuses, I'd applaud him. But instead he's launching his administration on an ideological war against groups like the U.N. Population Fund and Marie Stopes. In fact, these groups are engaging China in just the way the White House recommends most of the time.

When the topic of human rights abuses in China is raised, Mr. Bush usually argues, wisely, that it would be wrong to impose sanctions that punish the Chinese people. So it seems odd that when the issue is Chinese family-planning abuses, Mr. Bush responds by punishing African women.

Mr. Bush probably sees his policy in terms of abortion or sex, or as a matter of placating his political base. But here in the shantytowns of Africa, the policy calculation seems simpler: women and girls will die.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Ah yes - the old "think about the women and children"<insert teary eyes here> whine from the left. OK, say he asks for more funding for such an program - will it have to have "accountability" standards built into it? I mean...after all it is "voluntary";):p


But seriously - I'd like to know a bit more about this Stopes International organization and this "CARE" org - and also a bit more about the what the funding level was. I think we need to look at all our "foreign aid" spending to make sure it is being used in ways we want our money being spent.

CkG
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
We have to make hard decisions. If we have to kill hundreds of thousands of women and their babies to save the lives of hundreds of unborn children, that's a sacrifice we're willing to make.

I mean, it's not like they're Americans or anything. Most of them have never given a dime to the Republican party. Probably a bunch a tree-huggin' liberals. That's what God tells me, anyway.

</sarcasm>

It's BS like this that has pushed me farther from the Republican party over the years. I don't like abortion, but (1) I'm a guy, so my vote doesn't count, and (2) I'm not so self-righteous that I think I have a right to cram my feelings down others' throats. My world view isn't so black and white that I can't get past one litmus test when I'm looking at the greater good.

The fact that the sanctimonious a-holes do this in Christ's name is especially galling. They completely ignore the major point of the New Testament which is compassion and forgiveness towards others. Makes me hope there is a Hell just so most of them have a home in the afterlife.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
We have to make hard decisions. If we have to kill hundreds of thousands of women and their babies to save the lives of hundreds of unborn children, that's a sacrifice we're willing to make.

I mean, it's not like they're Americans or anything. Most of them have never given a dime to the Republican party. Probably a bunch a tree-huggin' liberals. That's what God tells me, anyway.

</sarcasm>

It's BS like this that has pushed me farther from the Republican party over the years. I don't like abortion, but (1) I'm a guy, so my vote doesn't count, and (2) I'm not so self-righteous that I think I have a right to cram my feelings down others' throats. My world view isn't so black and white that I can't get past one litmus test when I'm looking at the greater good.

The fact that the sanctimonious a-holes do this in Christ's name is especially galling. They completely ignore the major point of the New Testament which is compassion and forgiveness towards others. Makes me hope there is a Hell just so most of them have a home in the afterlife.

1. If you vote does not count, why should you be forced to pay such a thing.
2. If you are not self righteous enough to push your feeling on others, why should you willingly let others do it to you?

 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
We have to make hard decisions. If we have to kill hundreds of thousands of women and their babies to save the lives of hundreds of unborn children, that's a sacrifice we're willing to make.

I mean, it's not like they're Americans or anything. Most of them have never given a dime to the Republican party. Probably a bunch a tree-huggin' liberals. That's what God tells me, anyway.

</sarcasm>

It's BS like this that has pushed me farther from the Republican party over the years. I don't like abortion, but (1) I'm a guy, so my vote doesn't count, and (2) I'm not so self-righteous that I think I have a right to cram my feelings down others' throats. My world view isn't so black and white that I can't get past one litmus test when I'm looking at the greater good.

The fact that the sanctimonious a-holes do this in Christ's name is especially galling. They completely ignore the major point of the New Testament which is compassion and forgiveness towards others. Makes me hope there is a Hell just so most of them have a home in the afterlife.

1. If you vote does not count, why should you be forced to pay such a thing.
First, your premise is flawed, did you read the article? The Reproductive Health for Refugees Consortium was not about abortion. There may have been some abortion-related counseling or services offered under its auspices, but that wasn't its focus. One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole barrel.

Second, the fact that I don't like abortion doesn't mean I'm going to tell a woman she cannot have one. I don't demand the right to second-guess qualified medical advice, nor do I seek to prevent women from making their own decisions. One of the hallmarks of we "liberals", you see, is tolerance for other points of view.

Third, I should pay such a thing because that's the way the system works. We don't get to pick and choose which government programs we pay for. We pay for the whole package, take it or leave it. That is the benefit and the burden of living in a democracy.


2. If you are not self righteous enough to push your feeling on others, why should you willingly let others do it to you?
Another flawed premise. No one is telling women they must have abortions.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
We have to make hard decisions. If we have to kill hundreds of thousands of women and their babies to save the lives of hundreds of unborn children, that's a sacrifice we're willing to make.

I mean, it's not like they're Americans or anything. Most of them have never given a dime to the Republican party. Probably a bunch a tree-huggin' liberals. That's what God tells me, anyway.

</sarcasm>

It's BS like this that has pushed me farther from the Republican party over the years. I don't like abortion, but (1) I'm a guy, so my vote doesn't count, and (2) I'm not so self-righteous that I think I have a right to cram my feelings down others' throats. My world view isn't so black and white that I can't get past one litmus test when I'm looking at the greater good.

The fact that the sanctimonious a-holes do this in Christ's name is especially galling. They completely ignore the major point of the New Testament which is compassion and forgiveness towards others. Makes me hope there is a Hell just so most of them have a home in the afterlife.

1. If you vote does not count, why should you be forced to pay such a thing.
First, your premise is flawed, did you read the article? The Reproductive Health for Refugees Consortium was not about abortion. There may have been some abortion-related counseling or services offered under its auspices, but that wasn't its focus. One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole barrel.

Second, the fact that I don't like abortion doesn't mean I'm going to tell a woman she cannot have one. I don't demand the right to second-guess qualified medical advice, nor do I seek to prevent women from making their own decisions. One of the hallmarks of we "liberals", you see, is tolerance for other points of view.

Third, I should pay such a thing because that's the way the system works. We don't get to pick and choose which government programs we pay for. We pay for the whole package, take it or leave it. That is the benefit and the burden of living in a democracy.


2. If you are not self righteous enough to push your feeling on others, why should you willingly let others do it to you?
Another flawed premise. No one is telling women they must have abortions.


1. I did not read article, but abortion was brought into the subject. My premise is not flawed, if you vote does not count, you should not forced to pay for things you do no agree with.

2.When others force you to pay for things you disagree without even your vote counting, they have pushed their opinion on you.

 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
81
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
We have to make hard decisions. If we have to kill hundreds of thousands of women and their babies to save the lives of hundreds of unborn children, that's a sacrifice we're willing to make.

I mean, it's not like they're Americans or anything. Most of them have never given a dime to the Republican party. Probably a bunch a tree-huggin' liberals. That's what God tells me, anyway.

</sarcasm>

It's BS like this that has pushed me farther from the Republican party over the years. I don't like abortion, but (1) I'm a guy, so my vote doesn't count, and (2) I'm not so self-righteous that I think I have a right to cram my feelings down others' throats. My world view isn't so black and white that I can't get past one litmus test when I'm looking at the greater good.

The fact that the sanctimonious a-holes do this in Christ's name is especially galling. They completely ignore the major point of the New Testament which is compassion and forgiveness towards others. Makes me hope there is a Hell just so most of them have a home in the afterlife.

1. If you vote does not count, why should you be forced to pay such a thing.
First, your premise is flawed, did you read the article? The Reproductive Health for Refugees Consortium was not about abortion. There may have been some abortion-related counseling or services offered under its auspices, but that wasn't its focus. One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole barrel.

Second, the fact that I don't like abortion doesn't mean I'm going to tell a woman she cannot have one. I don't demand the right to second-guess qualified medical advice, nor do I seek to prevent women from making their own decisions. One of the hallmarks of we "liberals", you see, is tolerance for other points of view.

Third, I should pay such a thing because that's the way the system works. We don't get to pick and choose which government programs we pay for. We pay for the whole package, take it or leave it. That is the benefit and the burden of living in a democracy.


2. If you are not self righteous enough to push your feeling on others, why should you willingly let others do it to you?
Another flawed premise. No one is telling women they must have abortions.


1. I did not read article, but abortion was brought into the subject. My premise is not flawed, if you vote does not count, you should not forced to pay for things you do no agree with.

2.When others force you to pay for things you disagree without even your vote counting, they have pushed their opinion on you.

Do you agree with everything your government does? If not, then you have opinions pushed upon you, assuming you pay taxes.
Governments will do what they will do with the money they have obtained, and not everyone will agree with every action they take.

You cannot control every cent you give to the government, nor will 99% of people agree with everything their government does, so everyone has opinions pushed upon them, you cannot escape it.

And read the article before you have a go at people for stating things which clearly make sense.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Basically, it sounds like Bush & Co have done around the world what they cannot do at home. The right to choose is still strong in the U.S. because of Roe vs Wade. Plus, most clinics don't necessarily rely on gov't funds to do so. Additionally, there's broad support for a woman's right to choose in the U.S. However, drying up funding overseas, where Americans can't see the results, fits nicely with their agenda. Tie that to chipping away at abortion here in the U.S. in small, but meaninful ways (stem cell legislation, fetal rights, etc.), and you have a broad policy against abortion that should please the conservo-fundies in the U.S. So what if women and children die overseas? Abortion is murder, people. End of story.
rolleye.gif
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
It's so simple: they stop performing abortions, they get their funding back. Sounds like a win win situation for everyone.

Or, even simpler: people stop having unprotected sex, especially when they are unprepared to pay the associated costs. Oh my, I can't believe I actually suggested such a thing!
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,366
5,921
126
ROFL!

This has always puzzled me, in the US the woman has a Right to Choose, but when it comes to International Orgs, the US government has the Right to Choose? Seems like a case of losing out at home, but getting over it by focusing your frustrations on your neighbour. Ah well, the US can do what it wants with its' money, even if it's inconsistent.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,642
6,457
126
All these controversies happen because Republican men have no balls. They were squeezed out of existence by their mothers. All their lives their mothers have been telling them what to do and what not to do. They are mind phucked and now spend the rest of their lives pretending to grow their stunted glands back to normal size by trying to control the fertility of women. Only men of real substance can allow women choice and not fear. Republican men are hen pecked and now act like chickens. They're so traumatized and scared they even have to hide behind God.
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
All these controversies happen because Republican men have no balls. They were squeezed out of existence by their mothers. All their lives their mothers have been telling them what to do and what not to do. They are mind phucked and now spend the rest of their lives pretending to grow their stunted glands back to normal size by trying to control the fertility of women. Only men of real substance can allow women choice and not fear. Republican men are hen pecked and now act like chickens. They're so traumatized and scared they even have to hide behind God.

Since when have we been trying to contro the fertility of women? All we are trying to do is stop murder.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,366
5,921
126
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
All these controversies happen because Republican men have no balls. They were squeezed out of existence by their mothers. All their lives their mothers have been telling them what to do and what not to do. They are mind phucked and now spend the rest of their lives pretending to grow their stunted glands back to normal size by trying to control the fertility of women. Only men of real substance can allow women choice and not fear. Republican men are hen pecked and now act like chickens. They're so traumatized and scared they even have to hide behind God.

Since when have we been trying to contro the fertility of women? All we are trying to do is stop murder.

"Murder" is ok within the US, but not without?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
When the USSC decides a case and one agrees with the outcome the USSC is 'the law of the land' let them decide against what one believes and they claw tooth and nail while telling others in the same breath regarding what others are griping about 'It's been decided, get over it' ... well...
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,642
6,457
126
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
All these controversies happen because Republican men have no balls. They were squeezed out of existence by their mothers. All their lives their mothers have been telling them what to do and what not to do. They are mind phucked and now spend the rest of their lives pretending to grow their stunted glands back to normal size by trying to control the fertility of women. Only men of real substance can allow women choice and not fear. Republican men are hen pecked and now act like chickens. They're so traumatized and scared they even have to hide behind God.

Since when have we been trying to contro the fertility of women? All we are trying to do is stop murder.
What you said is how you deny in your head what I said.

 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
daniel1113 wrote:
"It's so simple: they stop performing abortions, they get their funding back. Sounds like a win win situation for everyone"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Huh ? - We're going to punish women in Africa because of policies that are enacted in China ?
They don't actually perform abortions in China, they council Chinese women on what the
Chinese Government provides or insists on. In China the Government policy is only 1 child
per family, and the culture of China tries to make sure that that child is male, so if a female
is born, many are killed at birth - so they don't loose thier 1 child status, or hidden away with
no admittance of existance, no education never seen in thier society so they aren't punished.
That really goes a long way toward squaring politics with the women in Africa dosen't it !

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The mark of any great society is it's willingness to take care and help the less fortunate gain a
successful position in life, through some form of assistance, be it medical, educational, or
employment. Todays "Conservative Revolution" is trying to undo all the advancements of our
society - not just what Clinton did, but is trying to strilke down benefits to the underprivileged
that date back to Johnson in the 60's, Eisenhower in the 50's, even Truman in the 40's.

They themselves benifited from those class and society advantages, but now want to deny
them to the present and future generations to come, as if the upcoming children are not worthy
and the elite class of wealty dosen't need any more of these trashy parasites to bring down
the saturation of wealth that belongs to the 400 most wealthy in our society,
we've seen the list recently
- the ones that really got those big tax breaks from the Bush Administration.

The downfall of the French Monarchy was in their "Let them eat cake" mentality & attitide,
Rome fell because thier ruling class became so self indulgent that they no longer could
function as leadership, and on the course our present Government Officials are using to
set the future of our countries - youth both ecconomically and educationally, we are now
breeding a cultural disaster that may not be matched by any terrorist activity.

The future of America is our children - and how we accomodate and provide for them.
If Russia would have done to our educational system what the congress knowingly
passes as law - we would have bombed them out of existance in self defense.

 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
Women in Africa aren't entitled to any help, so they aren't being punished. And just because it is part of Chinese culture doesn't make it right.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Women in Africa aren't entitled to any help, so they aren't being punished.
When you get a uterus, you can have an opinion. Until then, keep your misogynistic views to yourself.


And just because it is part of Chinese culture doesn't make it right.
And just because it is part of your sanctimonious culture doesn't mean you can impose your biases on the rest of the world.



Go back and read my first post in this thread. I was thinking of people just like you.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
"Murder" is ok within the US, but not without?

While, indeed, abortion is *legal* here in the US, the procedure itself, as performed on individuals, is not financed by our federal government. We don't force our taxpayers to pay for abortions here, why should we force our taxpayers to pay for them abroad?
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Corn
"Murder" is ok within the US, but not without?

While, indeed, abortion is *legal* here in the US, the procedure itself, as performed on individuals, is not financed by our federal government. We don't force our taxpayers to pay for abortions here, why should we force our taxpayers to pay for them abroad?
Did you read the article? Do you have any evidence we were paying for abortions?
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
I was replying to Sandorski's attempt at painting hypocritical the notion that we allow "murder" here but won't pay for it elsewhere. Whether or not it is *actually* happening in this particular case is another argument altogether.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,642
6,457
126
Originally posted by: Corn
"Murder" is ok within the US, but not without?

While, indeed, abortion is *legal* here in the US, the procedure itself, as performed on individuals, is not financed by our federal government. We don't force our taxpayers to pay for abortions here, why should we force our taxpayers to pay for them abroad?
Well we force out taxpayers to pay for the roads women use to drive to the clinic. ;)

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,366
5,921
126
Originally posted by: Corn
"Murder" is ok within the US, but not without?

While, indeed, abortion is *legal* here in the US, the procedure itself, as performed on individuals, is not financed by our federal government. We don't force our taxpayers to pay for abortions here, why should we force our taxpayers to pay for them abroad?

Not really much of a difference. Whether the Government pays or not, it "allows" them to occur, in fact it must Protect those doing it. So the problem is in the Moral Contradiction, allowing your citizens do something, yet acting Morally Outraged when someone elses citizens do the same.
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Women in Africa aren't entitled to any help, so they aren't being punished.
When you get a uterus, you can have an opinion. Until then, keep your misogynistic views to yourself.


And just because it is part of Chinese culture doesn't make it right.
And just because it is part of your sanctimonious culture doesn't mean you can impose your biases on the rest of the world.



Go back and read my first post in this thread. I was thinking of people just like you.

Since when did having a uterus give me the right to have an opinion?
Since when did having a uterus entitle women to free care?
Since when did having a uterus give women the right to murder?

I'm not emposing my "biases" on the rest of the world. Murder is wrong, period. How is that biased?