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Killer to be set free due to legal system

isasir

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2000
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In a dramatic move, the state's highest court Tuesday reversed a Suffolk County conviction of a Shelter Island man who shot to death his neighbor in a crime that divided the small, insular community and gained notoriety as the first murder in its 350-recorded history.

In a 5-2 decision, the Court of Appeals said the Suffolk jurors that convicted Kenneth Payne in 2000 of second-degree murder for acting with "depraved indifference" should have convicted him of "intentional murder." The jury acquitted him of an intentional murder charge in the shooting death of his former best friend, Curtis Cook.

The ruling clears the way for Payne to be released from Five Points Correctional Facility in upstate Romulas, where he has served six years of a 25-to-life sentence. And because the court ordered that the indictment be dismissed, the decision could leave Payne a free man within days.

But Suffolk District Attorney Thomas Spota said in a statement that his office will file a stay to ensure that Payne remains in jail while their motion to reargue the hearing is considered by the high court.

"We strongly disagree with the court's decision that may result in freedom for Mr. Payne who a Suffolk County jury concited of second-degree murder in 1998," Spota said in a statement.

The high court's ruling is the latest of several decisions that signal to prosecutors that the depraved indifference murder charge needs to be used more judiciously, legal experts said.

"A one-on-one shooting can almost never qualify as depraved indifference murder," the court said in its ruling.

Such charges, it said, are applicable for "shootings into a crowd, placing a time bomb in a public place or opening the door of a lion's cage in a zoo."

The decision could free a man who openly admitted that he took an elephant gun in April of 1998 and fired a single shot into Cook's stomach, his former best friend. Two weeks earlier Cook had been arrested and charged with sodomizing and molesting an 8-year-old girl in July of 1997. Payne has said Cook threatened his 12-year-old daughter and girlfriend.

Cook's family could not be reached for comment Tuesday.

Payne's attorney, Robert Kenney of Legal Aid Appeals in Riverhead, said though Payne clearly committed the murder, he deserves to be freed given the conditions of the crime and the victim.

"My client has no record, no history of violence, and he's done a substantial amount of time," Kenney said. "This was one isolated thing."

"It's not like this guy wasn't punished," he added. "He was punished enough for this situation."

For Payne's family - which includes three children, ages 18, 16 and 7 - the news was a welcome relief. "We've been hoping and praying and praying every night," said Margaret Payne, his mother.

"This will be a just thing," she added. "He didn't walk. He served six years. I think that's sufficient."

Richard Barbuto, past president of the New York State Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, said prosecutors have gotten into the habit of charging defendants with both murder charges, a practice the court clearly disagrees with. "I think prosecutors are going to have to think about their cases more and not just throw everything into the pot," Barbuto said. "Now you're going to see prosecutors being much more careful in what they select as their charge."

Legal experts said they don't expect that there are many similar cases. "I doubt that there is a whole host of cases out there that this would apply to," said Nora Demleitner, professor of law at Hofstra University. "Obviously in the future, prosecutors will to be more careful ... and jury instructions will have to be delivered."

In his statement, Spota noted that when he took office in 2002 he instituted a policy change that could have prevented the current scenario.

"In my view, a grand jury considering a murder charge should consider one version of that charge," Spota said.

"Had this policy been in effect in the previous administration, the Payne indictment and conviction would not be imperiled," he added.

Tuesday's decision leaves the likelihood that Payne will return to his home on Shelter Island, a rural enclave nestled between the North and South Forks and home to a little more than 2,000 people.

While in jail, dozens of residents wrote to the court pleading for a light sentence for Payne and bumper stickers supporting him sprouted around town.

How the community will react now remains unknown.

"It will be interesting" is all Supervisor Arthur Williams would say.

Cliffs:
1. Convicted of "depraved indifference" by jury, not guilty of first degree murder
2. Admits he's guilty of first degree murder
3. Found not guilty of depraved indifference
4. Released for being not guilty of crime he's charged with, can't be tried again for 1st deg. murder
5. Likely to be set free

Well ain't this f'd up?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
19,687
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Time to fire the DA.

Your cliffs are wrong. He was found guilty of Depraved Indifference by a jury, and not guilty of intentional murder (The DA charged him with both, allowing the jury to pick which to convict him of). The higher court correctly says his crime was not depreved indifference and therefore he must be set free. He cannot be retried for intentional murder because of double jeopardy.

It's the DA's fault for using that charge in the first place. In this case, the legal system is working fine. It is the DA who fscked up and desrves to be fired.
 

DorkBoy

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2000
3,591
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"Cook had been arrested and charged with sodomizing and molesting an 8-year-old girl in July of 1997"

He should be dead and Payne freed for killing a child molester, I hope he gets out.



 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
19,687
146
Originally posted by: DorkBoy
"Cook had been arrested and charged with sodomizing and molesting an 8-year-old girl in July of 1997"

He should be dead and Payne freed for killing a child molester, I hope he gets out.

One, that is vigilantism, and is illegal for obvious reasons.

Two, the man was never convicted. He never had his day in court.

Killing him was murder, no matter how you try to justify it.
 

isasir

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2000
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Payne's attorney, Robert Kenney of Legal Aid Appeals in Riverhead, said though Payne clearly committed the murder, he deserves to be freed given the conditions of the crime and the victim.

Is it common for a lawyer to basically say, "Well the guy he killed was a bad, bad man, so my client should be set free"?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
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146
Originally posted by: isasir
Payne's attorney, Robert Kenney of Legal Aid Appeals in Riverhead, said though Payne clearly committed the murder, he deserves to be freed given the conditions of the crime and the victim.

Is it common for a lawyer to basically say, "Well the guy he killed was a bad, bad man, so my client should be set free"?

A defense attorney's only obligation is do give his client the best defense possible. In this case, since guilt cannot be disputed, the goal is the lightest or no sentence.

He's just doing his job.
 

gigapet

Lifer
Aug 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: DorkBoy
"Cook had been arrested and charged with sodomizing and molesting an 8-year-old girl in July of 1997"

He should be dead and Payne freed for killing a child molester, I hope he gets out.

One, that is vigilantism, and is illegal for obvious reasons.

Two, the man was never convicted. He never had his day in court.

Killing him was murder, no matter how you try to justify it.

spiderman and batman were vigilantes and everyone loves them ;)
 

Whitecloak

Diamond Member
May 4, 2001
6,074
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Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: DorkBoy
"Cook had been arrested and charged with sodomizing and molesting an 8-year-old girl in July of 1997"

He should be dead and Payne freed for killing a child molester, I hope he gets out.

One, that is vigilantism, and is illegal for obvious reasons.

Two, the man was never convicted. He never had his day in court.

Killing him was murder, no matter how you try to justify it.

spiderman and batman were vigilantes and everyone loves them ;)

they are fictional and they have never intentionally killed anyone in the comics.
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,461
4
81
He shot a child molester who threatened his daughter....

The jurors who convicted him in the first place should be sodomized repeatedly by large African Bull elephants.
 

Oh lets snub out that double jeopardy law. It will make the world a safer place, especially iraq.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
19,687
146
Originally posted by: Nitemare
He shot a child molester who threatened his daughter....

The jurors who convicted him in the first place should be sodomized repeatedly by large African Bull elephants.

So accusations are as good as guilt? We should just scrap the whole innocent until proven guilty thing?

Come on, Nitemare... you can do better than that.
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
1,049
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Payne's attorney, Robert Kenney of Legal Aid Appeals in Riverhead, said though Payne clearly committed the murder, he deserves to be freed given the conditions of the crime and the victim.
if the attorney would experience this personally in some form, I'm sure he'd rather keep the guy behind bars rather than win the case for his client. $ owns all I guess.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
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Originally posted by: rh71
Payne's attorney, Robert Kenney of Legal Aid Appeals in Riverhead, said though Payne clearly committed the murder, he deserves to be freed given the conditions of the crime and the victim.
if the attorney would experience this personally in some form, I'm sure he'd rather keep the guy behind bars rather than win the case for his client. $ owns all I guess.

No, professional obligation owns all. It is the professional, moral and LEGAL obligation of a defense attorney to give his client the best possible defense and, if convicted, the lightest possible sentence.
 

isasir

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2000
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Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Meh, he killed a child molester. He should be given a medal not prison.

As mentioned, the 'child molester' wasn't proved to be guilty of those crimes. That being said, I prefer to leave it to the other prisoners to deal with a child molester however they see fit, assuming he is proven guilty.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Meh, he killed a child molester. He should be given a medal not prison.

The man he killed was not convicted of anything.

Do you believe that everyone arrested and charged is automatically guilty and should be killed by vigilantes?
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
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Originally posted by: rh71
Payne's attorney, Robert Kenney of Legal Aid Appeals in Riverhead, said though Payne clearly committed the murder, he deserves to be freed given the conditions of the crime and the victim.
if the attorney would experience this personally in some form, I'm sure he'd rather keep the guy behind bars rather than win the case for his client. $ owns all I guess.

What the hell are you talking about? This is a legal aid attorney who is working for little if any money, and not on an hourly fee.

Any defense attorney's job is to achieve the best possible outcome for his client, regardless of what he's done. It's not his job to achieve justice - that's left to the DA and prosecutor. Any defense attorney who shaves points in a particular case because of his opinion of the offense should be disbarred.

<-------- 6 years of experience as a prosecutor and defense attorney
 

Toasthead

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: Amused
Time to fire the DA.

Your cliffs are wrong. He was found guilty of Depraved Indifference by a jury, and not guilty of intentional murder (The DA charged him with both, allowing the jury to pick which to convict him of). The higher court correctly says his crime was not depreved indifference and therefore he must be set free. He cannot be retried for intentional murder because of double jeopardy.

It's the DA's fault for using that charge in the first place. In this case, the legal system is working fine. It is the DA who fscked up and desrves to be fired.

I always thought double jeopardy meant you couldnt be CONVICTED of the same crime twice. The DA could always retry him and say we have new evidence that suggests he DID commit murder ( HIS confession).
Am I way off base here?


Ok heres the info on it:

There are three essential protections included in double jeopardy: protection from being retried for the same crime after an acquittal; protection from retrial after a conviction; and protection from being punished multiple times for the same offense.
 

Calin

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: DorkBoy
"Cook had been arrested and charged with sodomizing and molesting an 8-year-old girl in July of 1997"

He should be dead and Payne freed for killing a child molester, I hope he gets out.

An eye for an eye... You can't kill someone for threatening your daughter and girlfriend.
This was certainly murder.

Calin
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
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Originally posted by: Toasthead
Originally posted by: Amused
Time to fire the DA.

Your cliffs are wrong. He was found guilty of Depraved Indifference by a jury, and not guilty of intentional murder (The DA charged him with both, allowing the jury to pick which to convict him of). The higher court correctly says his crime was not depreved indifference and therefore he must be set free. He cannot be retried for intentional murder because of double jeopardy.

It's the DA's fault for using that charge in the first place. In this case, the legal system is working fine. It is the DA who fscked up and desrves to be fired.

I always thought double jeopardy meant you couldnt be CONVICTED of the same crime twice. The DA could always retry him and say we have new evidence that suggests he DID commit murder ( HIS confession).
Am I way off base here?


Ok heres the info on it:

There are three essential protections included in double jeopardy: protection from being retried for the same crime after an acquittal; protection from retrial after a conviction; and protection from being punished multiple times for the same offense.

He was tried for two charges: Depraved indifference, AND intentional murder. The Jury found him guilty on the charge of depraved indifference, and aquitted him on the charge of intentional murder.

Double jeopardy means you cannot be TRIED for the same crime twice. He has been tried once, and aquitted of the crime of intentional murder.

5th Amendment:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subjected for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
 

Calin

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2001
3,112
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Originally posted by: Nitemare
He shot a child molester who threatened his daughter....

The jurors who convicted him in the first place should be sodomized repeatedly by large African Bull elephants.

As opposed to shot in the stomach with elephant guns?

EDIT: reformulated a bit
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,584
984
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Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Meh, he killed a child molester. He should be given a medal not prison.

The man he killed was not convicted of anything.

Do you believe that everyone arrested and charged is automatically guilty and should be killed by vigilantes?

Yes, you are correct. I assumed he was guilty and if so then I wouldn't have any problem with this but he was only arrested and charged, not convicted. Still, I'd like to see the evidence against the accused molester before passing final judgement on Payne.

I have no sympathy for child molesters. They should all be shot in the stomach with an elephant gun and left to die a slow painful death.