Kidnapped Italian Reporter Freed...Then Shot at by US Forces (Italian Secret Service Agent Killed)

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arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
Originally posted by: albatross
Originally posted by: BBond
No, the murderous pseudo-philosophy after the "defeat" of Communism is now called neo-Conservatism.

not american so i wouldn`t know.

edit:your neo-conservatism was put in place democratically,here we didn`t get that chance.

Many Americans would not agree with that statement, myself included...
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
No criticism of the Pentagon for hiding the car?

When this thread started, there were reports that Italian officials either had possession of or had done ballistix analysis on the vehicle...which is what spawned many of the assasination conspiracy theories.

There is no reason why Italian authorities should not have access to the car, although a neutral party is probably more appropriate given that both the Americans and Italians are furnishing different versions of the story, and I doubt either side is providing the 100% truth.
 

Albatross

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2001
2,344
8
81
Originally posted by: arsbanned
Originally posted by: albatross
Originally posted by: BBond
No, the murderous pseudo-philosophy after the "defeat" of Communism is now called neo-Conservatism.

not american so i wouldn`t know.

edit:your neo-conservatism was put in place democratically,here we didn`t get that chance.

Many Americans would not agree with that statement, myself included...

i was making a comparison,look at my affirmation in the context.
you people are really obssesed with politics,you take anything to mean us versus them.it was not a partisan affirmation.:)
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Yes, there is one. Hiding the proof of a conspiracy.
Hence the need for an independent investigation...I trust the objectivity of any Italian inspection team about as much as I trust an internal Pentagon investigation.

Even if the Pentagon or Italian authorities were to conduct an investigation, without tampering or agenda, the results of said investigation could still conceivably come under criticism from the other side as being anything but objective.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Yes, there is one. Hiding the proof of a conspiracy.
Hence the need for an independent investigation...I trust the objectivity of any Italian inspection team about as much as I trust an internal Pentagon investigation.

Even if the Pentagon or Italian authorities were to conduct an investigation, without tampering or agenda, the results of said investigation could still conceivably come under criticism from the other side as being anything but objective.

The Pentagon had enough time already to examine the car. Now the italian experts deserve as much time. Then some independant country can examine the car as well; what about India?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Yes, there is one. Hiding the proof of a conspiracy.
Hence the need for an independent investigation...I trust the objectivity of any Italian inspection team about as much as I trust an internal Pentagon investigation.

Even if the Pentagon or Italian authorities were to conduct an investigation, without tampering or agenda, the results of said investigation could still conceivably come under criticism from the other side as being anything but objective.

The Pentagon had enough time already to examine the car. Now the italian experts deserve as much time. Then some independant country can examine the car as well; what about India?

Yeah right... an EU country letting a country full of undesirables examine it! Good one. Most likely they would bully the third country such as India into another state of colonialism, assassinate their leader, and install a cannibal dictator who will say what they want as long as they feed him the flesh and blood of children.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
One more interesting analysis of the possible real story behind the official curtain, going back to Bush senior:
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/032205Madsen/032205madsen.html

March 22, 2005?High-level European intelligence sources report that the 51-year old slain Italian SISMI military intelligence agent, Dr. Nicola Calipari, killed by U.S. sharpshooters while accompanying the freed Italian hostage?Il Manifesto journalist Giuliana Sgrena?to Baghdad International Airport, was a prized target of opportunity for American assassins because of his knowledge about past Republican White House ties to Saddam Hussein's nuclear program.

Calipari was also reportedly privy to information about illegal U.S. covert operations in Iraq from his sources within the bloc of Iraqi resistance fighters led by former Republican Guards. Moreover, European intelligence sources report that Calipari was not the first Italian intelligence agent with expertise on Iraq to be killed by U.S. covert "wet affairs" operatives.

In 1989, the former Italian military attaché in Baghdad, Air Force Colonel Giuseppe Schiavo, was found shot to death in his home in Turin. Police ruled the death a suicide, however, Schiavo's diplomatic and military colleagues in Baghdad claim that Colonel Schiavo had stumbled across critical evidence of a complicated scheme by the George H. W. Bush administration, the CIA, Italian businessmen and government officials, U.S. auditors, Iraqi diplomats, spies, and central bankers, British and Italian intelligence agents, and Saudi bankrollers to finance Saddam Hussein's NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical) weapons program through U.S.-government-backed credits provided by Atlanta's Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL). Schiavo was killed before Italian magistrates could question him about his knowledge of the Iraqi weapons affair. One colleague of Schiavo in Baghdad called him a professional and not someone who would kill himself. "He was taken out because of what he knew," claimed the colleague.

According to Money Laundering Alert, shortly after September 11, FBI agents visited the Drawing Center, a New York City art museum, to examine diagrams drawn by artist Mark Lombardi that visually represented the complex connections of BNL to the George H. W. Bush administration. In 2000, Lombardi, 48, allegedly committed suicide. The FBI's interest in Lombardi's drawings was part of its investigation of the September 11 "al Qaeda" terrorist attacks on the United States.

Schiavo and Calipari were both experienced Iraq intelligence assets. But they both knew that the George H. W. Bush administration was heavily involved in propping up Saddam Hussein's government with intelligence, components for poison gas such as that used by Saddam against Kurds in Halabja, anthrax and other bio-toxins, and nuclear weapons production components such as krytrons and centrifuges. U.S. government-backed BNL loans were also used by Iran to procure military weapons and nuclear components.

In addition, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, Time, and the Sunday Times of London reported that Saudi Arabia funded nuclear weapons programs in Pakistan and Iraq in order to develop its own nuclear capability. Saudi funding involved Houston money tranches and accounts linked to banks and offshore entities controlled by George H. W. Bush and his closest business partners. Pakistan's nuclear bomb father, A. Q. Khan, maintained close relations with Saudi Arabia and Time reported that Khan sold nuclear weapons equipment, including uranium enrichment cylinders, to Saudi Arabia.

Part of BNL's loan guarantees for Iraq's nuclear program, some $720 million out of a total loan package of $2.6 billion, were backed by the U.S. Commodity Credit Corporation (CCC) and laundered through the U.S. Department of Agriculture. According to congressional investigators, much of the remainder of BNL's loans to Saddam were backed by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) and the US Export-Import Bank's Foreign Credit Insurance Association. The BNL credits were masked as being for generic "raw materials" and "heavy equipment."

Christopher Drogoul, the BNL Atlanta manager who was later jailed for bank fraud, claimed in congressional testimony that the U.S., British, and Italian financing and arming of Saddam Hussein involved companies like Matrix Churchill (UK), Bechtel (US). Kissinger Associates (US)?Henry Kissinger was also a member of BNL's international advisory board?Hewlett Packard (US), XYZ Options (owner of CarbiTech) (US), and Lummus Crest (US).

Additional congressional testimony indicated other U.S. companies involved in exporting "dual use" civilian/military goods to Iraq included Bell Helicopters, Lockheed, Dow Chemical, DuPont, Perkin Elmer, Rockwell International Collins, United Technologies, Scientific Atlanta, Swissco Management Group/Westfield Holdings of Miami Lakes, Florida; Tektronix, Teledyne Wah Chang, and Union Carbide,

The testimonies of Secretary of State James A. Baker III and Agriculture Secretary Clayton Yeutter were sought by Democratic congressional committees, including Rep. Henry Gonzalez's House Banking Committee. Attorney General Richard Thornburgh, as did his successor William Barr, constantly blocked Gonzalez's committee's investigation of the senior Bush's financing of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program.

In late 1989, after a State Department memo and a CIA report warned Baker that Saddam was using U.S. commodity credits to purchase nuclear, biological, and chemical materials, Baker urged Yeutter to approve additional loan guarantees for Iraq.

On October 27, 1992, Gonzalez reported that the Agriculture Department had spent the entire previous weekend shredding documents pertaining to the BNL-Iraq loans. When the Republicans took over the Congress in 1995, the investigations of BNL, the first Bush administration, and Saddam Hussein were quickly dropped.

However, Attorney General Janet Reno appointed John Hogan, a Miami prosecutor, to examine whether Bush administration officials and U.S. companies profited from arming Saddam with WMD and other arms. Hogan's report, issued in 1995, was nothing more than a whitewash of the Bush Sr. administration and "Iraqgate."

It was later reported by The American Spectator that from 1990 to 1992, Hillary Rodham Clinton served on the board of Lafarge Corporation, the U.S. subsidiary of French consortium Lafarge SA. Lafarge was reportedly involved in shipping arms components to Iraq via the BNL-financed conduit.

During 1992, Senator Al Gore, the then-Democratic vice presidential candidate, was warned off by senior Clinton campaign advisers, including George Stephanopoulos, from investigating BNL or bringing it up as a campaign issue.

In exasperation, Rep. Gonzalez, in an October 16, 1990 hearing on BNL, sharply criticized George Bush Sr. for his intransigence, "My contention is that the president is, and has continued to act, extra-unconstitutionally, and certainly in violation of the very statutes that the Congress has passed as early as 1974."

Then-Rep. Charles Schumer of New York, a member of Gonzalez's committee said of the BNL scandal, "From where we stand today, a nation with over 200,000 of its soldiers standing toe-to-toe with the bloodthirsty Iraqi war machine, and with thousands of its citizens held hostage by a ruthless dictator, these eight years of US largesse are shocking, almost incomprehensible. In effect, we've doled out billions of dollars of free money, which enabled Saddam Hussein to build the powerful nation that confronts us today. And all this could have been accomplished much more easily. The US government should simply have asked Saddam Hussein what weapons he wanted, ordered them from a manufacturer, paid the bill, and shipped them, postage paid, to Iraq. If the US is going to act stupidly, they at least ought to do it simply."
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
No criticism of the Pentagon for hiding the car?


There is no reason why Italian authorities should not have access to the car,

Yes, there is one. Hiding the proof of a conspiracy.

its absurd. if they wanted her dead, she'd be dead. they'd ALL be dead. its not that hard. its why the idea and conspiracy theories are plain stupid.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
its absurd. if they wanted her dead, she'd be dead. they'd ALL be dead. its not that hard. its why the idea and conspiracy theories are plain stupid.

My thoughts exactly...small arms fire is not particularly effective for taking out a moving target, even a soft skinned vehicle.

I am assuming that these checkpoints either contained hardened bunker like structures, with HMMWVs in support...the weapons mount on an HMMWV is typically a grenade launcher or a .50 cal machine gun.

If the intent was to asssasinate her, far more effective to open fire with a weapon intrinsic to the defense of the checkpoint that would have obliterated the car and everyone riding in it, while still making it look like an accident or "miscommunication."
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Yeah, right! A grenade launcher = an accident! No way!

Meanwhile, new details are emerging which definitely prove it was not an accident, but an assasination attempt planned to look like an accident:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/25/1516242
(you can listen to the show there)

Friday, March 25th, 2005
Naomi Klein Reveals New Details About U.S. Military Shooting of Italian War Correspondent in Iraq

Three weeks after being shot by US forces in Iraq, veteran Italian war correspondent Giuliana Sgrena is released from a military hospital. New details are emerging about the killing of the Italian agent who saved her life. We speak with independent journalist Naomi Klein, who just returned from meeting with Sgrena in Rome. [includes rush transcript] In Rome, journalist Giuliana Sgrena has been released from a military hospital where she was being treated for a gunshot wound she suffered when US forces shot up the car bringing her to freedom after a month being held hostage in Iraq. The head of Italy's Foreign Military Intelligence Nicola Calipari was killed in the attack when he shielded Sgrena from the bullets.

Yesterday, Italian newspapers reported that the justice minister has asked U.S. authorities to release the car so it can be examined by Italian ballistics experts. The papers said the request came after the U.S. command in Iraq reportedly blocked two Italian policemen from examining the car.

* Naomi Klein, award-winning journalist and author of "Fences and Windows: Dispatches From the Front Lines" of the "Globalization Debate and No Logo: Taking Aim at the Brand Bullies." She just met with Giuliana Sgrena in Rome.

RUSH TRANSCRIPT

This transcript is available free of charge, however donations help us provide closed captioning for the deaf and hard of hearing on our TV broadcast. Thank you for your generous contribution.
Donate - $25, $50, $100, more...

AMY GOODMAN: : We're joined in Washington, D.C. by journalist Naomi Klein, who has just met with Giuliana Sgrena in Rome. Welcome to Democracy Now!, Naomi.

NAOMI KLEIN: Thanks, Amy.

AMY GOODMAN: : Can you talk about what she told you?

NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah. At first I want to say that I know Giuliana really would have liked to have been on the show herself to talk to your listeners and viewers, but one of the things that surprised me when I met with Giuliana is that she was quite a bit sicker than I think we have been led to believe. Her injuries were described as fairly minor; she was shot in the shoulder. But when I met with her, she was clearly very, very ill, and that's why she's not on the show this morning. She was fired on by a gun at the top of a tank, which means that the artillery was very, very large. It was a four-inch bullet that entered her body and broke apart. And it didn't just injure her shoulder, it punctured her lung. And her lung continues to fill with fluid, and there continues to be complications stemming from that fairly serious injury. So that was one of the details.

She told me a lot about the incident that I had not fully understood from the reports in the press. One of the most ? and at first, the other thing I want to be really clear about is that Giuliana is not saying that she's certain in any way that the attack on the car was intentional. She is simply saying that she has many, many unanswered questions, and there are many parts of her direct experience that simply don't coincide with the official U.S. version of the story. One of the things that we keep hearing is that she was fired on on the road to the airport, which is a notoriously dangerous road. In fact, it's often described as the most dangerous road in the world. So this is treated as a fairly common and understandable incident that there would be a shooting like this on that road. And I was on that road myself, and it is a really treacherous place with explosions going off all the time and a lot of checkpoints. What Giuliana told me that I had not realized before is that she wasn't on that road at all. She was on a completely different road that I actually didn't know existed. It's a secured road that you can only enter through the Green Zone and is reserved exclusively for ambassadors and top military officials. So, when Calipari, the Italian security intelligence officer, released her from captivity, they drove directly to the Green Zone, went through the elaborate checkpoint process which everyone must go through to enter the Green Zone, which involves checking in obviously with U.S. forces, and then they drove onto this secured road. And the other thing that Giuliana told me that she's quite frustrated about is the description of the vehicle that fired on her as being part of a checkpoint. She says it wasn't a checkpoint at all. It was simply a tank that was parked on the side of the road that opened fire on them. There was no process of trying to stop the car, she said, or any signals. From her perspective, they were just -- it was just opening fire by a tank. The other thing she told me that was surprising to me was that they were fired on from behind. Because I think part of what we're hearing is that the U.S. soldiers opened fire on their car, because they didn't know who they were, and they were afraid. It was self-defense, they were afraid. The fear, of course, is that their car might blow up or that they might come under attack themselves. And what Giuliana Sgrena really stressed with me was that she -- the bullet that injured her so badly and that killed Calipari, came from behind, entered the back seat of the car. And the only person who was not severely injured in the car was the driver, and she said that this is because the shots weren't coming from the front or even from the side. They were coming from behind, i.e. they were driving away. So, the idea that this was an act of self-defense, I think becomes much more questionable. And that detail may explain why there's some reticence to give up the vehicle for inspection. Because if indeed the majority of the gunfire is coming from behind, then clearly, they were firing from -- they were firing at a car that was driving away from them.

AMY GOODMAN: : Now, can you talk about when Nicola Calipari arrived in Baghdad? For people who have not been following this story so much, the U.S. version of events of them driving to the airport very fast on a road with many checkpoints as you pointed out, not the secured road, that the U.S. soldiers fired into the air, tried to stop the vehicle, that they just kept on coming, and so eventually, they shot at them. Can you talk about how the Italian military intelligence official first came to Iraq?

NAOMI KLEIN: My understanding is he came the day before, and that he had checked in. U.S. authorities were aware of his presence. There was some kind of a negotiation process, but these details actually haven't come to light. The details that led to the negotiation, if there was a ransom paid. We don't know those details yet. What Giuliana knows is simply what happened from the moment of her release to this day, and her description is that she didn't see any of those signals, and she really wants people to know that she was not on a road with any checkpoints, and in fact, she told me many times that Iraqis are not in any way able to access this road. It's not the road that we hear described so many times as being a road with roadside bombs going off all the time, with checkpoints that you have to pass through. It's a completely separate road, actually a Saddam-era road, it would seem, that allowed his vehicles to pass directly from the airport to his palace. And now that is the U.S. military base at the airport directly to the U.S.-controlled Green Zone and the U.S. Embassy.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And Naomi, what did she tell you about Calipari? He was sitting in the car with her in the back, or what happened when the shooting began, and -- with him?

NAOMI KLEIN: Yes. I mean, she feels a tremendous amount of guilt, as you can imagine, and one of the reasons why she feels so much guilt is that Calipari chose to sit with her in the back seat. There were only three of them in the vehicle. So, he could have sat in the front seat with the driver. But because she was so afraid and she had just emerged from this horrifying ordeal of being in captivity for a month, he told Giuliana, let's sit together in the back seat, and I?ll tell you -- she said that he was telling her stories to try to reconnect her with her life, because she had been incredibly disoriented. One of the things that she has told me was most disorienting about her month in captivity was just that she didn't know what -- the difference between day and night. She didn't have control over the light switches, and because of Baghdad?s constant blackouts, the lights would go on and off at all hours, and she couldn't control the switches. So she really didn't know where she was. She says she has kind of a black hole of that month. She said one of the most terrifying things was that she would often hear U.S. helicopters over the house, and she was obviously very afraid that the house that she was in would come under fire, because obviously it was a resistance house. It was a resistance stronghold. So she had many reasons to fear. She was afraid of her captors. She was afraid of U.S. soldiers. And so, Calipari sat with her in the back seat, and he just told her stories about all of her friends, about her husband, about everyone who had been worried about her, about Italy, and that was the context in which he was killed. So it was his decision to sit with her in the back seat, and he was telling her these stories and reconnecting her with her past life, with her current life, when he died protecting her from a bullet. And she told me that that moment is really all she's able to remember vividly. That's the only moment that feels real to her is the moment of his death. In fact, her month in captivity, horrific as it was, she said feels like a far-away dream. All she can think about is the moment where he died really in her arms, protecting her.

JUAN GONZALEZ: What about the driver of the car? Did she tell you anything about what happened with him, or did she recall that part?

NAOMI KLEIN: Well, what she told me, and this is once -- an incident that I know that has been reported on in the Italian press, but not so much in the American press, is that after the shooting, she was very injured. They took her out of the car and lay her down, I think -- I don't know if they had a stretcher, but they -- she was being tended to, her wounds were being tended to. And the driver who was another intelligence officer called Italy and was on the phone, I think, with Berlusconi, she said, and he said, our car has just been fired on by 300 to 400 bullets. And as he was saying this, the U.S. soldiers ordered him to hang up the phone. So, but I asked her whether she had connected with him since the incident, and she said that she had not, with the driver.

AMY GOODMAN: : We're talking to Naomi Klein, independent journalist, who just met with Giuliana Sgrena, saw her in her hospital room in Rome. I'm looking at Jeremy Scahill's piece in the most recent Indypendent called ?Checkpoint Killings Unchecked,? that says the Italian government, a close ally of the Bush administration is disputing what the U.S. says. According to Italy?s foreign minister, Calipari arrived in Baghdad that Friday after making contact with the kidnappers. Calipari and a fellow agent checked in with U.S. authorities at the airport as well as the forces patrolling the area. The agents had been given security badges by the U.S. to allow them to travel freely in the country after picking up Sgrena from the abandoned vehicle where her kidnappers left her. They drove slowly to the airport, keeping the car lights on to help identify themselves at U.S. checkpoints. It says, news of Sgrena's release was already on the Reuters newswire and on Al-Jazeera. The mood in the car was one of celebration until the vehicle came under intense gunfire. So this is also not only what you and Giuliana Sgrena are saying, but quite something that one of Bush's closest allies to the top, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi is now refuting his ally's claims and also demanding an investigation that the U.S. is stopping at this point. Naomi?

NAOMI KLEIN: Well, Berlusconi is facing elections at the beginning of April, which is partially why he needs to be seen to be taking somewhat of a tough line with the U.S. He doesn't -- he is not facing presidential elections. That doesn't come for another -- I think until 2007, but there are regional elections, and this was a national, obviously, a national incident, and he needed to be seen to be standing up to the U.S. in some way. But he's really been going back and forth, and this is another thing that Giuliana Sgrena was very frustrated about, because as we know she is very, very opposed and continues to be strongly opposed to the ongoing occupation of Iraq, believes that Italian and all, indeed, all foreign troops should withdraw. And in the ? one thing that she told me that was very moving was, she believes that her release really came as a result of anti-war organizing in Italy across incredible coalitions, and she said that she feels like her life is a testament to what people can do when they get organized, and when they work together. And she is frustrated that that same pressure forced Berlusconi to announce that Italian troops would be withdrawn in September, and she really felt that the left opposition parties should have really maintained pressure on Berlusconi to insist on Italian troop withdrawal now. But in fact, Berlusconi has been allowed to backpedal on this claim, and now he is saying he didn't really say that; they will withdraw when Iraqi security forces are strong enough. And of course, Iraqi security forces -- it's not a training problem, it's an occupation problem. The reason why Iraqi security forces are not strong enough is because they're being massacred, because they're seen as an extension of the occupation. They don't have independence. And the continued occupation is the greatest problem to Iraqi security independence. It is not helping.

AMY GOODMAN: : Naomi, we have to break. When we come back we will continue this discussion and also talk about Paul Wolfowitz to be President of the World Bank.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: We continue with independent reporter, Naomi Klein. She just met with Giuliana Sgrena, who has just been released from a Rome hospital to her home though she is still very ill, dealing with having been shot on the way to the airport after her release by -- in Iraqi captivity. Naomi Klein, the news that the checkpoint -- that the road that they -- that Calipari was killed on, that she was driving on, Sgrena, when she was being driven to the airport, had been set up for ? that there had been a checkpoint set up for the trip of U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte to a dinner that night with General George Casey, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq to provide security. U.S. soldiers established mobile checkpoint, clusters of humvees armed with 50 caliber machine guns on top. It was one of the details that opened fire on the Italians' vehicle. Have you heard anything about this?

NAOMI KLEIN: Well, this would support what Giuliana told me, which is that the road she was on was not the public road that other journalists have traveled on, and that contractors and so on travel on, the very dangerous road. It was a secured road reserved for top Embassy officials, like obviously like Negroponte. But one thing that's very clear is that if she is on this road, and the way she explains it, she had to go through a U.S. checkpoint in order to get into the Green Zone. You can only access this road through the Green Zone. It's very, very difficult to get into the Green Zone. When I tried to get into the Green Zone, I had to go through six checkpoints -- six different passport checks. So, the idea that the American military didn't know that they were on the road, that they -- that didn't know about their presence is impossible, if she was, in fact, on a road that emerged out of the Green Zone. And I think that the idea that there was a mobile checkpoint set up for Negroponte obviously supports this claim very strongly. What Giuliana was talking about was what she was -- the only thing she could figure out is that the people who they checked in with in the Green Zone, the U.S. soldiers they checked in with in the Green Zone in order to get in, didn't radio ahead to these mobile checkpoints and warn them that they were coming. And from her perspective, that could have either been a mistake, or it could have been some sort of act of vengeance and anger, you know, and we know that there's a lot of anger at the idea that Italians may be paying very large ransoms for the release of prisoners. She's not alleging some grand conspiracy. There could have just been a broken down communication. But the idea that they didn't know, I think, is impossible, if she was on this secured road, because it emerged out of the Green Zone and you cannot get into the grown zone without passing through a checkpoint.

JUAN GONZALEZ: But even if there was broken down communication, it would seem that the issue of even just firing on a car that is moving away from you and is posing no threat to you on this secured road certainly raises questions of at least extreme negligence on the part of the U.S. soldiers.

NAOMI KLEIN: I think so. And I think that the -- all of these details will obviously emerge from the investigation, and we'll be hearing it directly from Giuliana herself and presumably from the driver.

AMY GOODMAN: Did Giuliana talk about her time in captivity and who held her, Naomi Klein?

NAOMI KLEIN: Yes, she did. I mean, she talked about this incredible disorientation. I think -- I know that you have covered the case on your show, and you have really stressed the fact that Giuliana's experience is not at all unique from the perspective of Iraqis who are living in this sort of pincer of the fear of being caught in a bombing by the resistance or a fear of being shot by U.S. soldiers at a checkpoint, and this is an ongoing fear every time Iraqis leave their home, and we're only hearing about this because there was foreigner involved, because it was such a dramatic incident. But I think the other part of the story is the implications for journalists and for independent journalists, because Giuliana Sgrena is really a hero, and she is an incredibly committed war correspondent who has put herself in situations of tremendous risk around the world. She has been to Iraq many, many times. And she went back to Iraq after Simona Pari and Simona Torretta had been kidnapped and released. She told me she has met with the Simonas in her hospital room, as well as several other people who had been kidnapped. She referred to it as the ex-kidnapped club. And she went knowing these risks, but one thing she told me that I think is an issue that you have discussed often on the show is the implications for all of this, for whether independent journalists can do their job in Iraq. And coming from someone who has been willing to take such tremendous risks, she said she just cannot figure out how it's possible at this point. This is because the people who held her made it very clear to her that they don't want independent journalists working in Iraq talking to Iraqis. And this was really one of the most disturbing details and, I think, a very telling detail. She told them that that made them just like Bush, because the Bush administration has also made it clear that they don't want independent witnesses talking to Iraqis, counting the bodies, highlighting the civilian toll of the war, but there are also clearly some elements of the resistance that feel the same way, and this makes it very, very difficult for independent journalists to do their work.

 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Meanwhile, new details are emerging which definitely prove it was not an accident, but an assasination attempt planned to look like an accident:

Sounds more like speculation then actual factual proof. So Klein has a conversation with Giuliana, and you present it as definite proof that this was not an accident...smells more like an interview transcript with a political agenda.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Meanwhile, new details are emerging which definitely prove it was not an accident, but an assasination attempt planned to look like an accident:

Sounds more like speculation then actual factual proof. So Klein has a conversation with Giuliana, and you present it as definite proof that this was not an accident...smells more like an interview transcript with a political agenda.

The Pentagon lied all the way (the car was not on the most dangerous road in Iraq but on the safest one, and was shot at from behind) and now hides the car from the italian police!
You call the truth a political agenda.
As if the WH and the Pentagon could not lie to you! Once more...
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,536
336
126
You do know what her history is concerning her views on the US Military, right?
Its an innovative way to funnel money to the terrorists...err..."freedom fighters" one supports against the Imperialist American murderers.

She writes for a Communist newspaper with an ideological agenda. Which means she isn't any more of a "journalist" than what's his name from Talon News - the gay porn dude - who got a White House press pass. She is a political operative, pure and simple.

Anyhoo, she couldn't very well just give money to the terr...there I go again...I mean the "freedom fighters" that she writes in support of, because that would look really bad and what's more probably be classified as a crime under both Italian and US laws.

So what better way to funnel support money to her "freedom fighters" than to go get herself 'captured' in Iraq, then have a ransom reported to be $1 million paid to her 'captors', who she writes in support of. All a coincidence, of course.

What tipped me off is the video of her pleading for Italian officials to secure her release because her health was declining and her situation was becoming dire. After her release, she reports that her captors treated her well and she was never in any danger. Huhh?

That's a remarkably different if not miraculous transformation from 'please save me, my condition is becoming dire' to 'I was fine, they served tea and crumpets'.

That, and how her 'captors' were even nice enough to warn her that the Americans wouldn't want her to return safely. That seems awful nice of people who are threatening to kill her, to be so concerned for her welfare like that. Why can't all murderous kidnappers be so...darned nice?

I believe she devised the entire thing to funnel money to terrorists without getting her hands dirty, money which will be used to hire mercenaries to kill and maim our soldiers. Something like 40% of the militants captured have admitted they were doing it for the money, not because they were anti-US.

One thing for sure, our boys need better marksmanship training - they missed.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The Pentagon lied all the way (the car was not on the most dangerous road in Iraq but on the safest one, and was shot at from behind) and now hides the car from the italian police! You call the truth a political agenda.

For your post to contain truth, it must have factual evidence to support it...conspiracy theory web bloggers and journalists with political agendas do not provide factual evidence, and therefore their "facts" are nothing more then speculation.

The safety of the road is irrelevant, as soldiers are trained to respond to any perceived threat.

Shot at from behind...were you there...do you have proof of this?

As if the WH and the Pentagon could not lie to you! Once more...
I do not believe that the Pentagon's account of what happened is 100% truthful...I also do not believe these conspiracy theory speculative articles that some of you are posting as "facts" and "truth"

Unless you were an eyewitness, or are privy to concrete evidence to support these theories, do not speak to me about "truth"


 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Update

Italy in row with US over shot spy

Barbara McMahon in Rome
Friday April 15, 2005
The Guardian

Italian investigators have clashed with Americans over plans to absolve US soldiers of any blame for the death of the Italian secret service agent Nicola Calipari, killed while escorting an Italian hostage out of Iraq last month.

The Italians are also unhappy that the US will not let them examine the car in which Mr Calipari was travelling when shot. The joint investigation is deadlocked and the dispute is holding up the final report on the incident.

Mr Calipari was killed by a US patrol on the road to Baghdad airport on March 4 as he escorted the journalist Giuliana Sgrena, who had been held captive by extremists for a month. He tried to shield her as their car was hit by bullets. Ms Sgrena and another intelligence officer were wounded.

The Italians and Americans agree the shooting was accidental, but the Italians dispute key elements of the account from the US soldiers, who say they fired at the car because it was speeding and did not stop.

The Italians deny the speeding, saying the car was doing 40-50kph (25-31mph). They say the US army authorised the journey and the driver did not get a stop warning.

Gianfranco Fini, the foreign minister, said Italy and the US had shown excellent cooperation in the investigation, which is led by a US brigadier general and has two Italian members. But Italian newspapers yesterday suggested the diplomatic words hid serious misgivings.

Ms Sgrena has also said in interviews: "There were no hand signals, warning lights or warning shots - nothing. We were travelling at regular speed."

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Hmm...why is the Propagandist hiding the car from the Italians? Was it titled to the GOP?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Hmm...why is the Propagandist hiding the car from the Italians? Was it titled to the GOP?

Not terribly long ago in this thread there was discussion of how analysis of the bullet holes in the car suggested that the number and spacing of bullet holes suggested precision sniper shots...as the blog reports fueling the assasination conspiracy came from a supposed investigation by Italian authorities, they have already examined the car?

Or were those theories based purely on speculation if Italian authorities have not already analyzed the car.

Seems there is a lot of propoganda flying about.

The Italians and Americans agree the shooting was accidental, but the Italians dispute key elements of the account from the US soldiers, who say they fired at the car because it was speeding and did not stop.
Basically it becomes a case of did the American soldiers respond to aggressively, or did Srgena's car not respond to adequate warnings.

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
No one has examined the car other than the U.S. military. Any other attempts to examine the car have been limited to examination of the pictures of the almost pristine vehicle (aside from the windows being shot out).

It has been reported in various news releases that 300 to 400 rounds were fired at the car. But only the windows were shot out.

What does that tell you?

 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
It has been reported in various news releases that 300 to 400 rounds were fired at the car. But only the windows were shot out.

It tells me that these reports are inaccurate. Let us assume that 5 soldiers were manning the checkpoint, and each emptied an entire clip on Sgrena's car. That would account for approximately 100 rounds of expended ammunition.

To fire off 300 to 400 rounds in the time window that the incident occurred in, it would take nearly 20 soldiers, each emptying their entire clip at the vehicle.

Sorry, not buying it.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
It has been reported in various news releases that 300 to 400 rounds were fired at the car. But only the windows were shot out.

It tells me that these reports are inaccurate. Let us assume that 5 soldiers were manning the checkpoint, and each emptied an entire clip on Sgrena's car. That would account for approximately 100 rounds of expended ammunition.

To fire off 300 to 400 rounds in the time window that the incident occurred in, it would take nearly 20 soldiers, each emptying their entire clip at the vehicle.

Sorry, not buying it.

My only question is: Why won't they let the Italian investigators look at the car?

There was an incident in my hometown back about twenty years or so where our local police stopped a lady for a traffic violation. The lady disputed the violation (not violently) so the officer called in backup. About a dozen cops showed up and surrounded the car. The lady, in the meanwhile, had her foot on the brake the entire time. The finally let go of the brake and the car lurched forward a tiny bit. A cop located in front of the car opened fire on the driver and so did the rest of them. They put in over 200 rounds into her and the car. Some officers even reloaded and started firing again! One officer was given a two-week PAID suspension, the rest were given a one-week PAID suspension. So, it's not like it COULDN'T happen. It IS possible.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Italy and U.S. 'Disagree over Agent Death Findings'
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4457810
Italy and the US disagree over the findings of an investigation into the accidental shooting death by US soldiers of an Italian intelligence agent in Baghdad, according to Italian news reports.


One report said Italian experts on the panel were refusing to sign off on the US conclusions.

The agent, Nicola Calipari, has been hailed as a national hero in Italy since he died on March 4 as he tried to shield a freed Italian hostage he was accompanying to the Iraqi capital?s airport shortly after she was released by her kidnappers.

Without citing sources, Rome daily Il Messaggero said the American conclusions ?exculpate from every accusation? the US soldiers...

...Rome prosecutors are conducting their own probe. Il Messaggero quoted Prosecutor Franco Ionta as saying he hoped that with the end of the US-Italian probe, the prosecutors would be able to take delivery of the Toyota to examine it.
Still haven't let them examine the car. Guess they have to "fix" it first.